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Ovechkin for Kovalchuk Proposal

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Old
05-12-2004, 03:58 PM
  #126
DINO22CICCARELLI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielBriere48
I think you should actually think before posting.Heatley and Kovalchuk are 40 goal players and can easily pot 50.

More then half of those players you listed haven't scored 40 goals or scored 40 about 5 years ago.

Only player on the list I take before Kovalchuk&Heatley is Hossa and it's close...


Don't be bitter that a guy in Marc Savard who played 45 games (34 less then your leading scorer Halpern) who would be your #1 option is only the 3rd option on Atlanta.


We'll just see next year when Atlanta will be dominating teams with a full season of Kovalchuk,Heatley,Lehtonen and possibly Coburn while Washington is still a bottom team.
WHEN DID HEATLEY POT 50 GOALS? WHEN DID KOVALCHUCK POT 50 GOALS? ANSWER NEVER!!! SO IF IT'S SO EASY WHEN WILL THEY DO IT? JUST LAST YEAR HEJDUK GOT 50. A YEAR OR TWO BEFORE THAT SAKIC DID THE SAME!!!
SO BY YOUR POST YOU WOULD TAKE KOVALCHUCK OR HEATLEY OVER FORSBERG? SO LIKE THE ABOVE SAID BACK TO BUSINESS 101!!!

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05-12-2004, 11:35 PM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DINO22CICCARELLI
WHEN DID HEATLEY POT 50 GOALS? WHEN DID KOVALCHUCK POT 50 GOALS? ANSWER NEVER!!! SO IF IT'S SO EASY WHEN WILL THEY DO IT? JUST LAST YEAR HEJDUK GOT 50. A YEAR OR TWO BEFORE THAT SAKIC DID THE SAME!!!
SO BY YOUR POST YOU WOULD TAKE KOVALCHUCK OR HEATLEY OVER FORSBERG? SO LIKE THE ABOVE SAID BACK TO BUSINESS 101!!!

Both have scored 40 in a season and are what...21?They'll easily pot 50 within 3 years.Take some prozac and chill.I would take Ilya and Dany over AO every day of the week and 2 times on Sunday.

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05-12-2004, 11:55 PM
  #128
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I would deal the #1 pick for Kovalchuk immediately.

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05-13-2004, 07:26 AM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EroCaps
Ovechkin HAS proven himself elite in the RSL, he was voted to the all-star team, at 18. He was the first 17 yr old to play for the Men's National Team since Tretiak, and has been playing in the RSL since he was 16.
Sorry but the RSL does not compare to an 82 game NHL style hockey.

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05-13-2004, 01:22 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GagsIsDaMan
Sorry but the RSL does not compare to an 82 game NHL style hockey.
Did I say it did?

The RSL is a more defensive-oriented league than the NHL, but you're right, not at the same level.

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05-13-2004, 01:58 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DINO22CICCARELLI
WHEN DID HEATLEY POT 50 GOALS? WHEN DID KOVALCHUCK POT 50 GOALS? ANSWER NEVER!!! SO IF IT'S SO EASY WHEN WILL THEY DO IT? JUST LAST YEAR HEJDUK GOT 50. A YEAR OR TWO BEFORE THAT SAKIC DID THE SAME!!!
SO BY YOUR POST YOU WOULD TAKE KOVALCHUCK OR HEATLEY OVER FORSBERG? SO LIKE THE ABOVE SAID BACK TO BUSINESS 101!!!
When has Ovechkin been a proven player? When has he proven that he can doing anything remotely near what Heatley and Kovalchuk have done?

Answer, in case you didn't already know, is also never.

Kovalchuk's || Heatley's value >>>>>> Ovechkin's value

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05-13-2004, 03:25 PM
  #132
DINO22CICCARELLI
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This had nothing to do w/ AO-a poster stated Heatley & Kovalchuck will EASILY net 50 goals-so if it is so easy why haven't they done this?

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05-13-2004, 03:27 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DINO22CICCARELLI
This had nothing to do w/ AO-a poster stated Heatley & Kovalchuck will EASILY net 50 goals-so if it is so easy why haven't they done this?
I think it's pretty obvious why - one's 23, and the other just turned 21.

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05-13-2004, 03:31 PM
  #134
DINO22CICCARELLI
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SwOOsh
Wow your hockey knowledge is terrible, like I said your one of the biggest homers ever:

Colorado: Forsberg, Sakic, Hejduk, Tanguay, Kariya, Selanne...
Philly: Roenik, Primeau, Recchi, Handzus, LeClair, Amonte, Gagne...
Ottawa: Hossa, Alfredsson, Havlat, Spezza, Smolinski, Bonk...
Detroit, Tampa Bay...

I think you should go back to Business 101 bud :lol
someone on this board said netting 50 was easy for DH & IK.
Lets see Hejduk did it last year & Sakic a yr or 2 b4 that Kariya & Selanne have done it not so long ago as well as Recchi but like I said no 50 goals for DH & IK....maybe someday guess it's not so easy

I agree w/ you SwOOsh

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05-13-2004, 03:32 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seachd
I think it's pretty obvious why - one's 23, and the other just turned 21.
IF IT'S SO EASY AGE SHOULDN'T MATTER!!!
Kariya got 50 goals & he was 22 or 23


Last edited by DINO22CICCARELLI: 05-13-2004 at 03:35 PM.
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05-13-2004, 03:39 PM
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flame_Star_Devil
When has Ovechkin been a proven player? When has he proven that he can doing anything remotely near what Heatley and Kovalchuk have done?

Answer, in case you didn't already know, is also never.

Kovalchuk's || Heatley's value >>>>>> Ovechkin's value
It is mind boggling how people think Ovechkins value is as high or even nera Kovalchuk or Heatley.

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05-13-2004, 03:41 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DINO22CICCARELLI
IF IT'S SO EASY AGE SHOULDN'T MATTER!!!
Kariya got 50 goals & he was 22 or 23
THere was also more scoring in the league.

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05-13-2004, 03:59 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Habsaku
THere was also more scoring in the league.
May have been more scoring but his Duck's team was not even close to being as good as the Thashers are now

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05-13-2004, 04:28 PM
  #139
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I dont care how valuable a player "projects" to be. The fact is Ovechkin hasnt played a single game of NHL hockey yet, Kovalchuk has and has succeeded in spades. If I were to name all the hockey players in the entire world with more trade value than Ilya Kovalchuk I would be finished before Id used up all the fingers on one hand.

Trading Kovalchuk for Ovechkin would be ludicrous. The Capitals hope and pray that Ovechkin will work out in the NHL as well as Kovalchuk has.

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05-13-2004, 04:49 PM
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DINO22CICCARELLI
IF IT'S SO EASY AGE SHOULDN'T MATTER!!!
Kariya got 50 goals & he was 22 or 23


As someone said this was about 8 years ago when about a dozen 100 point players and 7 50 goal scorers.How many players popped 50 this year?NONE.

If Kovalchuk and Heatley played back in the early 90's they would be getting 60-65 a year.

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05-13-2004, 04:53 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by DINO22CICCARELLI
May have been more scoring but his Duck's team was not even close to being as good as the Thashers are now
Ducks that year(95-96) finished tied for 8th with 78 points but had less wins, 35W 39L 8T so no playoffs but at least they were not the 10th worst team in the league, they also had two guys with 100 points. I dont see how you can say the thrashers are good, they were lead by Kovalchuck all year long. I remember going to see the MTL-ATL game and he seemed like the only guy on the ice.

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05-14-2004, 08:34 AM
  #142
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Originally Posted by DanielBriere48
As someone said this was about 8 years ago when about a dozen 100 point players and 7 50 goal scorers.How many players popped 50 this year?NONE.

If Kovalchuk and Heatley played back in the early 90's they would be getting 60-65 a year.
SO BY WHAT YOU JUST SAID THEN HEATLEY & KOVALCHUCK ARE BETTER THEN GRETZKY BECAUSE HE DIDN'T SCORE 60-65 GOALS IN THE EARLY 90'S!!! WAYNE NEVER EVEN HIT 50 IN THE 90'S BUT YOU THINK THEY COULD HIT 60-65? SO BY THE END OF THERE CAREER'S THEY SOULD BE AHEAD OF WAYNE ON THE ALL TIME SCORING LIST.....WELL IF THEY PLAYED WHEN WAYNE DID RIGHT?


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05-14-2004, 05:14 PM
  #143
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Kovalchuk might actualy be a better goalscorer then Gretz, specialy gretz in the 90s who was really a playmaker more than anything else. He's always been a playmaker but in the 80s he had more speed and was a better goalscorer then he was in the last 5 or 6 seasons of his career. But that's not the point, the point is would you trade a gretzky, a Kariya or even a Kovalchuk for an unproven player like Ovechkin? NO.

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05-14-2004, 07:30 PM
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DINO22CICCARELLI
SO BY WHAT YOU JUST SAID THEN HEATLEY & KOVALCHUCK ARE BETTER THEN GRETZKY BECAUSE HE DIDN'T SCORE 60-65 GOALS IN THE EARLY 90'S!!! WAYNE NEVER EVEN HIT 50 IN THE 90'S BUT YOU THINK THEY COULD HIT 60-65? SO BY THE END OF THERE CAREER'S THEY SOULD BE AHEAD OF WAYNE ON THE ALL TIME SCORING LIST.....WELL IF THEY PLAYED WHEN WAYNE DID RIGHT?

:lol





Big train, last time I respond to your posts.Kovalchuk and Heatley have already scored 40 before and are in their early 20's.Scoring has decreased at an amazing rate from the early 90's and all I said if Heatley and Ilya played back then they would easily pot 60, because it would project out to be.

And where did I say that Dany and Ilya were better then Gretzky?Maybe you shouldn't post when you watch Russian hockey games in America on your big dish

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05-14-2004, 07:53 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by EroCaps
Ovechkin HAS proven himself elite in the RSL, he was voted to the all-star team, at 18. He was the first 17 yr old to play for the Men's National Team since Tretiak, and has been playing in the RSL since he was 16.
The fact that Ovechkin is being voted into the all-star game only proves that he is hyped in Russia. Sidney Crosby was voted to the U-20 team at the age of 16. While this is VERY unusual, his point totals were unreasonably high. Tell me.. How does Ovechkni win the award for Best Left-Winger in Russia when hes not top 10 in scoring? I think Ovechkin is very popular in Russia. But, that's just me.

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05-14-2004, 07:54 PM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErnestoGuevara
Kovalchuk might actualy be a better goalscorer then Gretz, specialy gretz in the 90s who was really a playmaker more than anything else. He's always been a playmaker but in the 80s he had more speed and was a better goalscorer then he was in the last 5 or 6 seasons of his career. But that's not the point, the point is would you trade a gretzky, a Kariya or even a Kovalchuk for an unproven player like Ovechkin? NO.
Good observation. Gretzky's thing was making Semenko and guys like that scorers.

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05-16-2004, 02:18 AM
  #147
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There is no frigging way that Ovechkin has the same trade value as Kovalchuk does. Not a single GM in the NHL would trade Kovalchuk for Ovechkin. That is ludicrous.

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05-16-2004, 02:33 AM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoRyanMalone
The fact that Ovechkin is being voted into the all-star game only proves that he is hyped in Russia. Sidney Crosby was voted to the U-20 team at the age of 16. While this is VERY unusual, his point totals were unreasonably high. Tell me.. How does Ovechkni win the award for Best Left-Winger in Russia when hes not top 10 in scoring? I think Ovechkin is very popular in Russia. But, that's just me.
I guess Malkin hyped his way to Rookie of the Year with an outstanding 12 pt season.

There's the Russian pecking order.

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05-17-2004, 05:05 AM
  #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
Truth of the matter was that Ovechkin was off, no matter how you look at it. He was expected to be THE player at the tournament. You would figure that with his draft year coming up, he would do what ever it took to cement his spot. He had a chance at the tournament and he failed. People can only say it's one tournament, but let's face it - the WJC has gone on to make and break careers. With regards to Kovalchuk, when it was his turn to shine at the tournament, he delivered. No two ways about it. He was dominant in every facet of his game and he proved it. He rose to the occasion and that's what worries me about Ovechkin. What happens when the game is on the line? What happens when the team needs a clutch performance from him? Will he deliver that performance? Those are questions that he FAILED to answer at the WJC tournament this year. With regards to the previous one, it makes one think that not having Zherdev there this year hurt more than expected. Who knows, maybe Zherdev made Ovechkin a better player.
I dont think that is the "truth of the matter" as you put it at all. I think that he did well for himself, yet simply not to the level that the hype machine (of which you admittedly do not belong to) expected.
Which brings up an interesting question. If you do not buy into the hype, then how exactly could you say he was "off"?
He was one of the better forwards statistically at the tourney, yet because he didnt live up to the hype, or dominate th way that the hype expected, or predicted, he was a letdown?
That really makes no sence.
On one hand you say that you dont buy the hype, yet on the other, you expected him to perform to the level of the hype.
If you do not buy into it then you simply cant say he was "off". Because, he was just as good as most others.
If you DO buy into the hype, then you have a beef in saying that he was off, because he didnt perform to the God like standard set for him by the hockey community.
And to take it a step further, if you are telling me that this is ammunition for NOT buying into the hype (or if you made the decision not to buy into the hype after, or because of the tourney) then he is being unfairly judged because of ONE tournament.
Either way, the WJC this year is NOT an accurate barometer to judge him on simply because it was one tournament.
And I feel that it is a weak argument to hang your hat on to be truthful (and that wasn't intended to be disrespectful in any means). Take away the hype surrounding him and tell me that he did poorly. You really can't. And if you DONT buy the hype then you cant use that argument IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
Like I said, if I were Atlanta and if Washington wanted Kovalchuk that badly, then I would make Washington pay through the teeth if that's the case. Kovalchuk has shown that he is one of the top offensively gifted players in the league. Those players are becoming more and more rare in the less-offense, more-defense = more mediocre players-NHL. People can talk about the lack of defense in Kovalchuk's game, but he was drafted to put the puck in the net and has done that. Besides, his defensive game isn't that bad and I think Kovalchuk really stepped up his game this year in Heatley's absence. Let's remember that Kovalchuk is what 20, 21?
Of course anyone would have to pay through the teeth to get Kovalchuk. Atlanta is in no position to NEED to trade him away. Yet Washington is in no position at having the need to trade away thier top pick either.
That isnt what my argument was about. It was about equal value for a player, and what I said was that your proposal was just as off base as the other one which you ripped on. You can easily apply the argument that you used above for the other guys proposal as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
With regards to ripping into the Ovechkin hype, I will continue to do so. I've seen posts on here calling him the next Lemieux and the best player to come to the NHL in the past 20 years. How many other players has that been stated about? I'm sorry, but we probably won't see another Lemieux for a very, very, very long time (don't even get me started on Cindy Crosby) and as for the best player to come to the NHL in the past 20 years, I'm sure that he has a lot to live up to before he can be compared to players like Sakic, Forsberg, Thornton, Iginla, Naslund, Kovalchuk, Heatley, Hossa, and the list goes on and on.
For those of us that post who call him the next Mario or whomever, I am in complete agreement with you.
I think this started by people saying he was the best prospect since Lemieux and people assumed that meant that he would be as good, or have the impact that Mario did. Of course i dont think he will (though, like I siad, you cant predict the future) and I think that it is silly to suggest that he will have the impact that Mario did.
But to say he is the best PROSPECT (in terms of prospect potential, and not in style, future impact or production) to come along since 1984 is not a stretch by any means. It simply means that in the last 20 years, he is seen as the guy who has the highest potential for upside. It doesnt mean he will produce or be a success, nor does it mean that he will not flop. It just means that he is highly regarded as a prospect over the likes of guys like Daigle, Thorton and Lecavalier.
I dont see why that is really an issue because he IS thought of rather highly.

I dont think it means he is the BEST player (and you are using this argument for being the best and comparing it to players who have already succeeded which isnt fair) to come into the NHL in the last 20 years. Just the one who has higher upside than a player did at the time of thier draft.

You can compare it to the Sakic's, Iginla's and whomever else you would like all you want. But don't make the mistake of comparing him to the players that they became. Compare it fairly to the players they were at thier draft time and what they were projected to be at the exact time of thier draft. Many of the players you mentioned exceeded expectations, yet at thier draft time they werent expected to have the impact that AO is expected to have.
He may never live up to it, but he still has higher upside than they did in thier draft years.
What they do with it, or turn out to be is totally irrelevant in this debate. How highly regarded they are and were is what is relevant.
For those who expect that he will be a savior in the mold of a Lemieux or Gretzky, well, I can't help them. He won't be IMO. But that doesnt change that there is a difference between projection and production.
His production is still a long way off from coming into fruition. His projection is NOT, and it is greater than that of those you mentioned above at the time they were drafted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan10
You did say it best though when you said that this is something we simply don't know. At best, I'm playing devil's advocate here. I just think that before we go buying into the hype, we take a look at every possible angle with Ovechkin. He wasn't expected to dominate the WJC tournament the previous year and he did. Then when he was expected to dominate the tournament, he failed to do so. Makes you wonder whether he can really handle pressure situations or not.....
One tourney doesnt make me wonder if he can or can not handle anything in all honesty.
Sports history is filled with players who were great yet didnt always achieve great accomplishments or personal acclimades.
It is also filled with mediocre players who performed well above thier level of mediocracy for short periods of time, yet were never able to sustain that level.
Again, basing this on one tournament is a falacy which should be easily as overlooked in the big picture just as if he dominated in only one tournament.

Believe what you wish as will I. The truth probably will lie somewhere in between, yet only time will give us the answers.

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05-17-2004, 05:26 AM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flame_Star_Devil
When has Ovechkin been a proven player? When has he proven that he can doing anything remotely near what Heatley and Kovalchuk have done?

Answer, in case you didn't already know, is also never.

Kovalchuk's || Heatley's value >>>>>> Ovechkin's value
So he has never had the chance to do so either. The argument either way is a folly because of that reason alone.
You cant fault him for not proving himself when he has yet to be given the chance.
You cant compare him and then use it as a negative when he has yet to be given that chance.

What we are talking about when judging this trade proposal is simply this.
Kovalchuk: NHL production + still plenty of upside
Downside: Lack of defensive awarness (I dont buy the "not physical" argument). Still somewhat one diminsional.
Ovechkin: Upside.Massive, MASSIVE upside.
Downside: Lack of NHL experience so noone knows if he will live up to the upside projected of him.

My opinion is that overall Ovechkin will be the better player. Offensivly speaking, Kovalchuk will be more productive.
You just have to ask yourself if the gap in offense between the two will be bigger than the gap in all other areas between the two. I personally feel that it will not. I feel that AO's all around game will be much bigger than the difference between the gap in what thier offense will bring.
Then you have to weigh that against the fact that this is not a certainty, and that you will be giving up a young superstar for a guy who may not reach that level (though many feel he will surpass it).
From Atlanta's persective, I would just keep Kovalchuk probably. He is a rare breed of player and has a natural gift and fire for the game.
From all accounts, AO is the same way and the same things could be said of him. Yet it cant be said with any certainty which is why the trade would be difficult to swallow.


Last edited by stardog: 05-17-2004 at 01:09 PM.
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