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Assigning players to AHL team after Junior season ends

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Old
04-12-2010, 12:42 AM
  #1
txspitsfan
 
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Assigning players to AHL team after Junior season ends

I have a question

Let's say a Junior players season has ended and his NHL club doesn't make the playoffs, and their AHL affiliate doesn't make the playoffs either. Can the NHL club assign him or loan him to a different AHL team or would they bother sending him to the ECHL?

Thanks.

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04-12-2010, 01:04 AM
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HansH
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I believe that unless a player has reached the age of 20, that the rules state that he must play either with his junior team or the NHL team - and that he cannot play for a minor-pro team during this time - so even if the AHL club had made the post-season, most junior players wouldn't be able to join them.

I could be wrong, however.

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04-12-2010, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HansH View Post
I believe that unless a player has reached the age of 20, that the rules state that he must play either with his junior team or the NHL team - and that he cannot play for a minor-pro team during this time - so even if the AHL club had made the post-season, most junior players wouldn't be able to join them.

I could be wrong, however.
I think they can sign an ATO and play in the AHL.

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04-12-2010, 12:24 PM
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As long as their Junior year is complete, the prospect may be 'loaned' to a different affiliate under an ATO contract.

These players are also exempt from the 'Clear day' roster list as well.

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04-12-2010, 06:43 PM
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I think there may be a limit to the number of games that can be played. Cody Franzen joining the MilAds for the season's end and playoffs a few years back with a year of junior left is what I am refering to. Details may not be entirey correct or complete.

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04-12-2010, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Wolvesfan View Post
I think they can sign an ATO and play in the AHL.
I am with Wolvesfan on this one. Ryan Parent signed an ATO with Milwaukee after his Junior season ended. He may have been 19 at the time.

At the beginning of a season, a Junior player can play up to 9 NHL games and be returned to the Juniors. If he plays in 10 games, he can't go back. If under 20 years old, he can't be sent down to the AHL affiliate, only the NHL or Juniors.

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04-13-2010, 02:52 AM
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Junior players playing in the AHL happens all the time. They sign an ATO and they're good to go.

I can't remember ever seeing a junior player under contract to an NHL team that was loaned out to another team's AHL affiliate, though.

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04-13-2010, 06:57 AM
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Yes, after the junior player's season is over they can play in the AHL on an ATO. No, there is no game limit that I have ever seen if a player is playing in this scenario; the games are limited by when junior seasons end and the player is available to join the AHL team. A junior player can also do the same in the ECHL after their junior season is over. See Stefan Della Rovere playing for the SC Stingrays at the end of the 08-09 regular season after the Barrie Colts season was over and then played for Barrie again this season.

On the other topic mentioned, at the beginning of the season, an 18 or 19yo junior player can play more than the 9 NHL games and still be sent back to juniors.

There are a few games played markers for CBA purposes, one being the 10 NHL games played for an 18 or 19yo player and the season counting as a season related to the ELC contract and the contract not sliding and adding an extra ELC contract year. The second is the 40 NHL games played for the NHL season to count as an accrued season.

See Luca Sbisa's profile as an example for this rule:

- in the 08-09 season: Sbisa played for the Philadelphia Flyers for 39 NHL games and then was sent back to the WHL Lethbridge Hurricanes. Sbisa's first year of his ELC did get used that season, but they sent him back right before he hit the 40 NHL games played marker so he did not accrue a season for future Free Agency purposes.

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04-13-2010, 08:10 AM
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Slightly off topic, personally I think it's poor that the AHL allows this. Teams have been battling all season for their position in the playoffs and all of a sudden they can add players for the playoffs? It just doesn't seem right IMO.

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04-13-2010, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
Slightly off topic, personally I think it's poor that the AHL allows this. Teams have been battling all season for their position in the playoffs and all of a sudden they can add players for the playoffs? It just doesn't seem right IMO.
Why not? They can add players that get sent down from the NHL. A few years ago I think WBS got back 4 or 5 players for the playoffs after the P-Pens season ended even though some of them only played a handful of games for WBS.

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04-13-2010, 08:46 AM
  #11
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Originally Posted by Wolvesfan View Post
Why not? They can add players that get sent down from the NHL. A few years ago I think WBS got back 4 or 5 players for the playoffs after the P-Pens season ended even though some of them only played a handful of games for WBS.
Frankly I don't think that's right either.

IMO in order to be eligible for the playoffs a player should have to play a certain amount of games for the team (or in the AHL if a player was traded). Players can be added on an emergency basis if needed, but the team roster should mirror the team that played on the ice for the season.

It just doesn't seem right to me that a player who played a couple of games in the regular season can be on a playoff roster and be a major reason why a team wins a Calder Cup (see Carey Price, Mike Richards and Jeff Carter). If you want to add them to the regular season roster at the end of the season (like MLB) that's one thing, but to add them to the playoff roster is another.

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04-13-2010, 10:02 AM
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It probably goes back to the developmental league idea, the NHL teams want their top prospects getting as much experience as possible.

It probably levels the playing field if anything. It would have been interesting if the Rats had actually snuck into the playoffs last year, they had a much better roster on April 11th than October 11th.

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04-13-2010, 11:19 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RFA View Post
It probably goes back to the developmental league idea, the NHL teams want their top prospects getting as much experience as possible.

It probably levels the playing field if anything. It would have been interesting if the Rats had actually snuck into the playoffs last year, they had a much better roster on April 11th than October 11th.
But at the playoffs the field shouldn't be leveled. Teams have competed for 80 games to earn their seeds. Adding such players skews that completely.

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04-13-2010, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
But at the playoffs the field shouldn't be leveled. Teams have competed for 80 games to earn their seeds. Adding such players skews that completely.
There's no problem as long as all teams function by the same rules. How many guys are going to be added that "change the face" of a team? It's a developmental league and such additions are a great X-factor that make this league exciting come playoff time. And while there are exceptions such as the ones you mentioned (And I don't know that Jeff Carter made that much of an impact), I've found most junior players rarely make major contributions in a Cup run. You're just as likely to get something out of an "emergency injury addition" from the ECHL as you are a guy straight from juniors.

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04-13-2010, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by GarbageGoal View Post
There's no problem as long as all teams function by the same rules. How many guys are going to be added that "change the face" of a team? It's a developmental league and such additions are a great X-factor that make this league exciting come playoff time. And while there are exceptions such as the ones you mentioned (And I don't know that Jeff Carter made that much of an impact), I've found most junior players rarely make major contributions in a Cup run. You're just as likely to get something out of an "emergency injury addition" from the ECHL as you are a guy straight from juniors.
Carey Price certainly had an impact.

Jeff Carter in 21 playoff games scored 12 goals and added 11 assists while Mike Richards had 7 goals and 8 assists in 15 games. You don't think that had an impact on the Phantoms winning the Cup? The Phantoms were not a high scoring team in the regular season, so adding 2 goal per game players to their lineup completely changed that team.

You aren't really comparing the impact that an ECHLer has to an elite NHL prospect are you?

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04-13-2010, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
Carey Price certainly had an impact.

Jeff Carter in 21 playoff games scored 12 goals and added 11 assists while Mike Richards had 7 goals and 8 assists in 15 games. You don't think that had an impact on the Phantoms winning the Cup? The Phantoms were not a high scoring team in the regular season, so adding 2 goal per game players to their lineup completely changed that team.

You aren't really comparing the impact that an ECHLer has to an elite NHL prospect are you?
I was wrong about Carter, I was looking at his previous year's stats.

But I'll tell you one thing, I was glad the Providence Bruins had career ECHL'er John Spoltore on their team in 1999, even if he didn't play one game for us in the regular season.

Again, we can all pick out instances where new arrivals make a difference, and the clear day roster means nothing whatsoever. I like the rules that allow it (and it helped beat my favorite club in the Carter and Richards instance so I could be biased on the subject if I wanted to) and you don't. So be it.

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04-13-2010, 05:52 PM
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I think that most of the players have competed through the 80 game season to try to make the NHL. I'd rather believe that they were playing for AHL playoff seeds, but I really think that is a very distant secondary goal during the AHL season. I don't like it, but I have come to terms that's the way it is now. NHL teams want players to get the experience, and there aren't really a whole lot of fans who care- as showed by the drastic decrease in attendance just about everywhere.

I doubt that it is allowed to level the playing field, but it is an interesting concept that an AHL team with a small budget would get some help when going against some of the big spenders...... Sounds like some political idealogies.

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04-14-2010, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarbageGoal View Post
I was wrong about Carter, I was looking at his previous year's stats.

But I'll tell you one thing, I was glad the Providence Bruins had career ECHL'er John Spoltore on their team in 1999, even if he didn't play one game for us in the regular season.

Again, we can all pick out instances where new arrivals make a difference, and the clear day roster means nothing whatsoever. I like the rules that allow it (and it helped beat my favorite club in the Carter and Richards instance so I could be biased on the subject if I wanted to) and you don't. So be it.
I was a Phantoms STH so there's no question that the rule benefited the Phantoms, but that doesn't mean that I like it. You play as a team for 80 games and that is how you should go into the playoffs. Adding elite prospects in April just doesn't seem right to me.


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04-14-2010, 08:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RFA View Post
I think that most of the players have competed through the 80 game season to try to make the NHL. I'd rather believe that they were playing for AHL playoff seeds, but I really think that is a very distant secondary goal during the AHL season. I don't like it, but I have come to terms that's the way it is now. NHL teams want players to get the experience, and there aren't really a whole lot of fans who care- as showed by the drastic decrease in attendance just about everywhere.

I doubt that it is allowed to level the playing field, but it is an interesting concept that an AHL team with a small budget would get some help when going against some of the big spenders...... Sounds like some political idealogies.
I don't think that has anything to do with this rule. During the regular season the AHL benefits from group sales. In the playoffs, group sales drop off dramatically as do corporate sales.

If anything the playoffs are a true indicator of how much "real" support AHL teams have.

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04-14-2010, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarbageGoal View Post
I like the rules that allow it (and it helped beat my favorite club in the Carter and Richards instance so I could be biased on the subject if I wanted to) and you don't. So be it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
I was a Phantoms STH so there's no question that the rule benefited the Phantoms, but that doesn't mean that I like it.
That's what he said - you're agreeing with him on this point.



The AHL is a developmental league. Part of that is playoff experience, so getting their prospects some extra time is simply part of the program. Besides, the Richards / Price experiences are the exception, not the rule. On the whole, junior additions aren't impact players, and I actually enjoy it when they are (and remember, I got the first hand Carey Price experience).

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04-14-2010, 08:51 AM
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Rum,

I'm not agreeing with him. He likes the rule, I don't (even though my team benefited from it).

I may very well be in the minority, but that doesn't change the fact that I don't like the rule.

IMO You play as a team for the regular season and that is how you should play in the post season.

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04-14-2010, 10:21 AM
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I'll throw another Junior name out there to combat the 'exception' theory. Although he wasn't a factor on the score sheet, I thought Braydon Coburn played pretty well for the Wolves during their Calder Cup run that ended in a loss to the Carter/Richards led Phantoms team. He played 18 playoff games and three regular season games that season, so he had to beat out some other regular defenseman for a play-off roster spot.

I know he quickly fell apart after that, but as has been debated before, that was probably due to a sense of NHL entitlement more than a bad player.

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04-14-2010, 12:11 PM
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I don't think that has anything to do with this rule. During the regular season the AHL benefits from group sales. In the playoffs, group sales drop off dramatically as do corporate sales.

If anything the playoffs are a true indicator of how much "real" support AHL teams have.


I agree that it doesn't have anything to do with the rule.... I think it's why there is such a rule, because there are few people who care that it is there.

I agree that it is stupid in general, but it is somewhat interesting when some new players are brought in.

I'd also like to see closer tabs kept on playoff attendance. If the teams really do contribute $1 per fan to the playoff pool, it seem like inflated playoff figures would also be a payoff to the league.

Over the past 10-12 years, very few teams have advanced past other teams with higher attendance figures.

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04-14-2010, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by pelts35.com View Post
Carey Price certainly had an impact.

Jeff Carter in 21 playoff games scored 12 goals and added 11 assists while Mike Richards had 7 goals and 8 assists in 15 games. You don't think that had an impact on the Phantoms winning the Cup? The Phantoms were not a high scoring team in the regular season, so adding 2 goal per game players to their lineup completely changed that team.

You aren't really comparing the impact that an ECHLer has to an elite NHL prospect are you?
I agree with pelts! The Wolves are getting three players back from Atlanta, who didn't make the NHL playoffs. The Admirals lost a key player to injury and won't get any players from Nashville because they are in the NHL playoffs. I would rather pick-up three guys who sit the bench in the NHL over any three from the ECHL or juniors.

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04-14-2010, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RFA View Post
I don't think that has anything to do with this rule. During the regular season the AHL benefits from group sales. In the playoffs, group sales drop off dramatically as do corporate sales.

If anything the playoffs are a true indicator of how much "real" support AHL teams have.


I agree that it doesn't have anything to do with the rule.... I think it's why there is such a rule, because there are few people who care that it is there.

I agree that it is stupid in general, but it is somewhat interesting when some new players are brought in.

I'd also like to see closer tabs kept on playoff attendance. If the teams really do contribute $1 per fan to the playoff pool, it seem like inflated playoff figures would also be a payoff to the league.

Over the past 10-12 years, very few teams have advanced past other teams with higher attendance figures.
Interesting idea. Milwaukee lost to Houston in the second round last year in 7 games. The Admirals drew 5878 (11th) versus the Aeros 5982 (8th) during the regular season. I believe the first round was Milwaukee over Rockford 3909 (24th). Milwaukee usually draws about 2000 to 2500 for weeknight playoff games in the first round and 4 or 5K for weekend games. As the playoff rounds go on, these numbers climb. During the Cup year, they were about 5K and 8K in the finals.

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