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Kaberle’s bags packed (And interesting info on Kessel)

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Old
04-13-2010, 09:56 AM
  #26
BrannigansLaw
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Not exactly true.

It is quite possible to get a young player who is capable of scoring 65-70 points for Kaberle.

It is unlikely to get a young player (under 24) who has established his ability to consistently score 65-70 points a year.

It is about risk.

Is there a young player who hasn't established himself that you believe is on the cusp? There is risk that he'll never take that next step, and really Stajan had 57 points this year, so 65-70 points isn't like you are landing a Stamkos.

Also, a 1st. round pick is anywhere from 1st. to 30th. The value in a 1st. round pick varies a great degree.
Even without a 1st round pick, I would definitely trade Kaberle for a guy like Frolik, Benn or some similar caliber player who has the potential to put up 65-70 points.

It's unrealistic to expect a return consisting of a guy who can score 65-70(under 24) and a 1st rounder.

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04-13-2010, 09:58 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Sounds like Wilson coaching at its' finest.

Mess with one of the best offensive defenders in the league because there is only one way to play the game.

Great for trade value.
Wow ULF. I read that completely differently than you did obviously. What I read was Kaberle saying I should do what I'm coached to do, which is my job, and not feel the need to have to make up for what I feel are other players mistakes. I should not get out of my role/position, because when I do, the whole system breaks down.
"I should focus on why I am here and not on what I can't control." If a teamate makes a mistake and is out of position, I should not lose my position, because if I do, we will have 2 people out of position. If Schenn makes a mistake, let him recover and I'll do what I am coached to do, because Luke Schenn will recover, and then I am the one out of position.


Or something like that.

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04-13-2010, 10:05 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Not exactly true.

It is quite possible to get a young player who is capable of scoring 65-70 points for Kaberle.

It is unlikely to get a young player (under 24) who has established his ability to consistently score 65-70 points a year.

It is about risk.

Is there a young player who hasn't established himself that you believe is on the cusp? There is risk that he'll never take that next step, and really Stajan had 57 points this year, so 65-70 points isn't like you are landing a Stamkos.

Also, a 1st. round pick is anywhere from 1st. to 30th. The value in a 1st. round pick varies a great degree.
With the draft being so deep this year even with the 20th or 25th pick we could pick up someone nice I would think. Like Jeff Skinner will go anywhere from 10th-30th and if we could grab him I'd be estatic

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04-13-2010, 10:06 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by BrannigansLaw View Post
Even without a 1st round pick, I would definitely trade Kaberle for a guy like Frolik, Benn or some similar caliber player who has the potential to put up 65-70 points.

It's unrealistic to expect a return consisting of a guy who can score 65-70(under 24) and a 1st rounder.
What's the difference between a 2nd. round pick and a late 1st. round pick? 1 pick.

Would you trade Kaberle for the 19th. overall pick who scored 14 goals, 39 points as a 20 year old in the NHL?

Those are not impressive numbers, either where he was picked, or how he scored.

Heck, Tlusty scored 10 goals with crappy linemates in limited time as a 19 year old.

Getzlaf.

No they don't all turn out, but to say you can't get a player capable of scoring 65-70 points and a late first? We don't really know.

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04-13-2010, 10:09 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by nomorewhining View Post
Wow ULF. I read that completely differently than you did obviously. What I read was Kaberle saying I should do what I'm coached to do, which is my job, and not feel the need to have to make up for what I feel are other players mistakes. I should not get out of my role/position, because when I do, the whole system breaks down.
"I should focus on why I am here and not on what I can't control." If a teamate makes a mistake and is out of position, I should not lose my position, because if I do, we will have 2 people out of position. If Schenn makes a mistake, let him recover and I'll do what I am coached to do, because Luke Schenn will recover, and then I am the one out of position.


Or something like that.
That could be.

To me it said, I should play my own game. There is a reason why I'm in the league and have been for over a decade and that is by playing my game. If I try to change my game to be something I'm not I will not be effective.

Don't buy a thoroughbred racehorse and tie a plow to him. Sure you'll get the fields done, but I'd question the man's intelligence who did that.

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Old
04-13-2010, 10:15 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
That could be.

To me it said, I should play my own game. There is a reason why I'm in the league and have been for over a decade and that is by playing my game. If I try to change my game to be something I'm not I will not be effective.

Don't buy a thoroughbred racehorse and tie a plow to him. Sure you'll get the fields done, but I'd question the man's intelligence who did that.
"I should focus on why I am here, and not on what I can't control," screams it's a coaches line to a player. Do what I tell you to do, and don't be concerned with what another player is supposed to be doing.

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04-13-2010, 11:33 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
How about something like:

Kaberle
Kadri

for

Bobby Ryan
Nicolas Deschamps
no... you'd get Ryan to play with Kadri... we do that and we're back searching for a top line center with really no remaining way to get one... at least no pleasant way to do so.

While I think he carries more value than Kadri, i'd rather deal Schenn for Ryan, just because of team needs.

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04-13-2010, 11:36 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Leafs4Eva View Post
With the draft being so deep this year even with the 20th or 25th pick we could pick up someone nice I would think. Like Jeff Skinner will go anywhere from 10th-30th and if we could grab him I'd be estatic
I hope we can find a way to get a higher 2nd in this year's draft... i want Knight.

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04-13-2010, 11:48 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by nomorewhining View Post
"I should focus on why I am here, and not on what I can't control," screams it's a coaches line to a player. Do what I tell you to do, and don't be concerned with what another player is supposed to be doing.
Ron Wilson's coaching style and Kaberle's playing style aren't a good fit. Going back to his SJ days he never seemed to like defencemen like Ehrhoff and Carle who didn't stay behind the forwards all of the time.

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Old
04-13-2010, 11:51 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glucker View Post
no... you'd get Ryan to play with Kadri... we do that and we're back searching for a top line center with really no remaining way to get one... at least no pleasant way to do so.

While I think he carries more value than Kadri, i'd rather deal Schenn for Ryan, just because of team needs.
Yeah, no kidding, let's keep our Canadian drafted talent.

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Old
04-13-2010, 12:03 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Professor Truculence View Post
Yeah, no kidding, let's keep our Canadian drafted talent.
Once again, who cares what nationality a player is?

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Old
04-13-2010, 12:05 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Professor Truculence View Post
Yeah, no kidding, let's keep our Canadian drafted talent.
Isn't Schenn Canadian?

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Old
04-13-2010, 12:07 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Professor Truculence View Post
Yeah, no kidding, let's keep our Canadian drafted talent.
well I still do advocate trading Schenn, I like having Canadian players, but hte first concern is team needs
Quote:
Originally Posted by rojac View Post
Once again, who cares what nationality a player is?
While a good player is a good player no matter where he's from, you could argue that a player would to better for a team he has a personal stake in. Say you're in the finals, and your team is the only Canadian team left, the Canadian players have the extra motivation to win it for Canada.

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Old
04-13-2010, 12:11 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojac
Once again, who cares what nationality a player is?

While a good player is a good player no matter where he's from, you could argue that a player would to better for a team he has a personal stake in. Say you're in the finals, and your team is the only Canadian team left, the Canadian players have the extra motivation to win it for Canada.
This

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Old
04-13-2010, 12:12 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by glucker View Post
While a good player is a good player no matter where he's from, you could argue that a player would to better for a team he has a personal stake in. Say you're in the finals, and your team is the only Canadian team left, the Canadian players have the extra motivation to win it for Canada.
Maybe. Only if the player buys into the BS that whether a team is located in Canada or the U.S. is imported.

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04-13-2010, 12:16 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by rojac View Post
Maybe. Only if the player buys into the BS that whether a team is located in Canada or the U.S. is imported.
Whether it's important or not doesn't matter. Nationality is always a great motivating factor... get an "us versus the world" thing going.

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Old
04-13-2010, 02:23 PM
  #42
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No, I don't think the situations are similar. In Kubina you had a guy who had pissed management off previously and had used his NTC to block a move in at least one, if not two seasons. Evidently, there wasn't much of a trade market for Kubina. Kaberle has never been known as a malcontent, and he and Burke appear to have - at the very least - mutual respect. Moreover, if rumours are to be believed, Burke held out on trading Kaberle for what he thought was too little once already. He's also spent the entire season talking about how valuable a player like Kaberle is. I doubt you'll see him dumped for a song.
The situations are very similar. Kubina may have blocked a trade once or twice but Kaberle denied us having Jeff Carter and a 1st Round Pick!!! How good would Carter have looked this season as a Big #1 Centre that we're still looking for. Toss in the kind of package we could have gotten for Mats and we could have been well on our way in this re-build Not to mention that we're still paying for Tucker's Buyout while he's playing for somebody else because he wouldn't let us move him either.

All of the "No Trade Crew" have denied the Leafs a chance to move forward faster. Yes it was their right but they signed those no trades when we were a contender....Things changed and the writing was on the wall.

There are no loyaties to Kaberle when none of these players have ever considered what's best for their team and their city...they've only thought of themselves and how comfortable they were here going through the motions.

I don't want to dump Kaberle for nothing because he's a great player so if the right deal doesn't surface then keep him and let's get rockin! But if he can be packaged for a front line young forward and a 1st then I hope Burkie pulls the trigger and doesn't think twice.

His no trade is invalid in the summer so it's time for the leafs to execute their right for once.

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04-13-2010, 02:29 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
Not exactly true.

It is quite possible to get a young player who is capable of scoring 65-70 points for Kaberle.

It is unlikely to get a young player (under 24) who has established his ability to consistently score 65-70 points a year.

It is about risk.
exactly. people seem to forget that Carter was only a 40-ish point player with potential to be more when the Kaberle trade was offered...

Kaberle for Carter + 1st rd pick isn`t an unrealistic return for Kaberle because of Kaberle....it`s unrealistic because Carter is not the player he was when the trade was offered.

Kaberle is worth whatever Burke feels he`s worth. it`s not like he`s dying to get rid of the guy... if no one will offer up what Burke wants, he will be a Leaf next season. pretty simple.


i rarely bother with Toronto sportswriters...and the `Kaberle is worth a 2nd rd pick`type trash they spew in their articles is why.

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04-13-2010, 02:29 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
What's the difference between a 2nd. round pick and a late 1st. round pick? 1 pick.

Would you trade Kaberle for the 19th. overall pick who scored 14 goals, 39 points as a 20 year old in the NHL?
Those are not impressive numbers, either where he was picked, or how he scored.

Heck, Tlusty scored 10 goals with crappy linemates in limited time as a 19 year old.

Getzlaf.

No they don't all turn out, but to say you can't get a player capable of scoring 65-70 points and a late first? We don't really know.
Absolutely. It all depends on the player since stats never tell the entire story.

It's unrealistic to get that type of return (65-70pt under 24 player + 1st round pick) but it is certainly not impossible. It is more likely that the deal will be based mored on potential if Burke deals for a draft pick plus prospect instead of a NHLer for NHLer trade.

It is my opinion however that Kaberle has regressed this season and that his value around the league likely won't be as high as some would like to believe.

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04-13-2010, 02:32 PM
  #45
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I had almost forgotten how badly Sundin and Kaberle have burned us in the past.

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04-13-2010, 02:36 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by nomorewhining View Post
"I should focus on why I am here, and not on what I can't control," screams it's a coaches line to a player. Do what I tell you to do, and don't be concerned with what another player is supposed to be doing.
Why he is there is because of his game.

A coach can tell a 65 year old woman on the street corner something, but that doesn't mean she can do it.

Kaberle doesn't play NHL hockey because a coach tells him how to play the game he plays NHL hockey because he's a talented hockey player who can play NHL calibre hockey. That's the same with almost every hockey player, otherwise when you fired a coach the players wouldn't know what to do.

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04-13-2010, 02:55 PM
  #47
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I had almost forgotten how badly Sundin and Kaberle have burned us in the past.
How can you forget something that never happened?

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Old
04-13-2010, 02:57 PM
  #48
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Kaberle's value has plummeted basically as he is now a 1 year rental. However a 2nd round pick is a little low. Kaberle should be able to fetch a late 1st + B level prospect.
I think his value will be around a mid 1st rd pick + a player of James Sheppard's skill-set.

nothing to major, but still a decent return.

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Old
04-13-2010, 03:28 PM
  #49
Zap Brannigan
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
How about something like:

Kaberle
Kadri

for

Bobby Ryan
Nicolas Deschamps
Never change Leafs fans.

Never change

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Old
04-13-2010, 03:34 PM
  #50
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We're not trading Kabs for a 2nd, he'll stay.

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