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Old
04-14-2010, 11:17 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by kyko1827 View Post
Hank is worth alot more than that
So add more to it if you think so. However, I disagree. I don't see a team that's going to pay out the wazoo for a goalie making almost $7MM per year when they could acquire one of the guys I previously listed for much, much less.

I've read the "value of Lundqvist" threads and I know how much Ranger fans over value him. I see "first line center" listed as a starting point more often than not, and that's ridiculous. What team multiple 1st line centers to deal? Philly? Do you really want to give them Lundqvist for Carter? I sure as hell don't. Who does that leave?

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04-14-2010, 11:18 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
The hell are we talking about trading Gaborik and Hank for? did I miss something or are we just having fun with hypotheticals.
Hypothetical. At least my posts are.

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04-14-2010, 11:19 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by Jaromir Jagr View Post
You're going into dimensions that make no sense. Just because they are primary defensive specialists means they aren't entitled to money because they aren't offensive powerhouses? You have to look at comparables. Staal's comparables (even this year) have signed extensions for right around $3.5. Staal MIGHT take a hometown/long term discount, however, it'd still be past $3 at the very least. You don't lowball home talent. And that's what you're doing.

Were you crusading when Callahan and Dubinsky signed? Callahan is older and arguably the team leader, and he got 2.2 and 2.4.

Staal has YET to really become the defenseman hes expected to be. He can get his real pay raise when his RFA status is overwith.

Hes not worth 3 million, especially if some other ******* on the market gets it that isnt worth it and ends up hiking Staal's worth.

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04-14-2010, 11:24 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuy1985 View Post
Were you crusading when Callahan and Dubinsky signed?

Staal has YET to really become the defenseman hes expected to be. He can get his real pay raise when his RFA status is overwith.

Hes not worth 3 million, especially if some other ******* on the market gets it that isnt worth it and ends up hiking Staal's worth.
Well, by your account, almost no one is worth what they're getting payed.

At the time of Callahan's extension, the primary consensus was that he was being overpaid slightly. He proved us all wrong. Callahan is a little bit underpaid now. That will show in his next contract.

Dubinsky's contract was rushed after all the arbitration issues. It's reasonable. He'll receive more, again, obviously.

Staal has only played three seasons. His offensive production and all around play have increased each year, and he's especially taken strides this year. Undeniably the teams best defenseman by a long shot, and deservedly so, he shall receive a contract in the 5-year/$20mill range. Not to mention that would lock him up until 28; when he's just hitting his prime years and has gotten even better, he would have solidified himself as one of the NHL's premiere defensemen by then. Even though now: he is one of the NHL's premiere YOUNG defensemen.

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04-14-2010, 11:25 PM
  #155
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The guys who get the points are the guys who should make the big bucks and take up the cap.

Im not saying offensive powerhouses are necessarily worth more than defensive specialists, however, if you want a team full of Chris Drury's and Marc Staal's, then so be it.

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04-14-2010, 11:26 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuy1985 View Post
The guys who get the points are the guys who should make the big bucks and tape up the cap.

Im not saying offensive powerhouses are necessarily worth more than defensive specialists, however, if you want a team full of Chris Drury's and Marc Staal's, then so be it.
You're getting pretty stubborn. Your thought process is putrid. Offensive production does not equal cap dollars.

None of my posts advocated for Chris Drury and he's not even involved in this subject. The fact that his contract is completely ludicrous has nothing to do with the fact that Marc Staal, one of the NHL's best young defenseman and certainly our best, a homegrown talent, WILL not and SHOULD not be low-balled like you are suggesting. That's simply the point.

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04-14-2010, 11:33 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Jaromir Jagr View Post
You're getting pretty stubborn. Your thought process is putrid. Offensive production does not equal cap dollars.

None of my posts advocated for Chris Drury and he's not even involved in this subject. The fact that his contract is completely ludicrous has nothing to do with the fact that Marc Staal, one of the NHL's best young defenseman and certainly our best, a homegrown talent, WILL not and SHOULD not be low-balled like you are suggesting. That's simply the point.

In this NHL, it does, and should.

I disagree. Staal getting less than $3million is not lowballing him, and you suggesting he has improved is a stance that probably only has gotten credibility the last 3 weeks. In the beginning of the year, most thought he and Girardi had actually regressed because of the amount of turnovers. Obviously it was because of the system transition, however, hes going to become one of the premier shutdown defensemen in the years to come. His offensive potential is largely untapped, and nobody really knows if this season was a fluke or if his career highs are something he can attain consistently.

He is still YOUNG and learning. Him playing out under 3 million until hes done with RFA status isnt lowballing him either. You think its lowballing, I dont.

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04-14-2010, 11:34 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuy1985 View Post
The guys who get the points are the guys who should make the big bucks and take up the cap.

Im not saying offensive powerhouses are necessarily worth more than defensive specialists, however, if you want a team full of Chris Drury's and Marc Staal's, then so be it.
Well, I do in fact want a d-core full of Marc Staals. He's a first pairing, shut-down dman. Five Staals and one MDZ would be a pretty fantastic unit.

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04-14-2010, 11:34 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Hypothetical. At least my posts are.
Ditto.

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04-14-2010, 11:35 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
Well, I do in fact want a d-core full of Marc Staals. He's a first pairing, shut-down dman. Five Staals and one MDZ would be a pretty fantastic unit.

Id rather have 3 Staals and 3 Del Zottos.

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04-14-2010, 11:36 PM
  #161
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I'll take 4 staals and 2 del zottos.

4 staals for the top defensive minutes.

1 del zotto for each PP unit.

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04-14-2010, 11:37 PM
  #162
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I'm not sold on Volchenko, either. If McDonagh is, at most, a full year away from the NHL, and gives essentially what Volchenkov does, why commit big money to Volchenkov, unless, you don't intend to commit long term to Girardi.
McDonagh hasn't even played an AHL game, let alone NHL and you're ready to say he "gives essentially what Volchenkov does"? Volchenkov is one of the best defensive defenseman in the NHL. He's a tank, hits like a linebacker, clears the front of the net and blocks more shots than some goalies. That's a tall order for McDonagh to fill coming out of college. If we bury Redden in the minors we definitely look at options like Volchenkov, Hamuis and Michalek to strengthen our defense going forward. Yes, we want to have space for our many prospects to join the team, but we also need at least one solid, physical, responsible vet (prone to less mental break downs than Rozy).

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04-14-2010, 11:37 PM
  #163
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Drury is just as integral a piece as Gaborik is, all money aside.

However, if I want a significant part of my cap taken up in one player, itd be Gaborik. As intangible as Drury is, the points ultimately are what makes the bigger difference.

If you have a team full of Chris Drury's at max cap, youd have a hell of a PK, but not much else.

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04-14-2010, 11:37 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuy1985 View Post
In this NHL, it does, and should.

I disagree. Staal getting less than $3million is not lowballing him, and you suggesting he has improved is a stance that probably only has gotten credibility the last 3 weeks. In the beginning of the year, most thought he and Girardi had actually regressed because of the amount of turnovers. Obviously it was because of the system transition, however, hes going to become one of the premier shutdown defensemen in the years to come. His offensive potential is largely untapped, and nobody really knows if this season was a fluke or if his career highs are something he can attain consistently.

He is still YOUNG and learning. Him playing out under 3 million until hes done with RFA status isnt lowballing him either. You think its lowballing, I dont.
And I respect your opinion: everyone has one. However, Staal has made strides this year and not just in the last 3 weeks. The kid simply doesn't make mistakes. That big turnover against Richards 2 games ago is going to stick out in your mind for 1 reason: because you don't see it often. The kid is hefty. He's mean (though not too mean yet). And he gets the job done. When the job gets tougher; he excels. He plays against the top lines of other teams every night. He played nearly 30 minutes in the most important game of the season last game. If this doesn't show that he's vastly superior to our other defensemen and has extremely high value because he's such a good player, I don't know what does.

However, maybe you don't think offering him under $3 is lowballing him, but experts on the subject estimate a near $3.5-4 range contract. Most of your fellow HF'ers think so as well, and definitely over 3. So is everyone else wrong, and you're just right? Or are you simply not changing your mind? In the meantime, we'll wait until the summer when the extension is actually finished to extend this argument.

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04-14-2010, 11:39 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuy1985 View Post
Id rather have 3 Staals and 3 Del Zottos.
Fine, whatever, you just proved my point. Even in your super offensive-minded view you'd want multiple Marc Staals in your d-core.

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04-14-2010, 11:39 PM
  #166
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The biggest contracts in the league are the top scorers. Thats how it has to be in this league.

Im not saying the shutdown guys or defensive guys are any less important, just that your cap needs to be tied up in what ultimately matters.

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04-14-2010, 11:44 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by HockeyGuy1985 View Post
The biggest contracts in the league are the top scorers. Thats how it has to be in this league.

Im not saying the shutdown guys or defensive guys are any less important, just that your cap needs to be tied up in what ultimately matters.
Yeah - the BIGGEST contracts. Some of those contracts do consist of premier defenseman.

And we're not talking about BIG contracts or BIG dollars. $3-4 mill is not "the biggest contracts" it's simply a contract in the medium range that someone who has completely excelled since converting from juniors to the NHL on his ELC deserves.

And--how does our best defenseman, not "ultimately matter?" Because he doesn't score 15 goals a year?

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04-14-2010, 11:44 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Jaromir Jagr View Post
And I respect your opinion: everyone has one. However, Staal has made strides this year and not just in the last 3 weeks. The kid simply doesn't make mistakes. That big turnover against Richards 2 games ago is going to stick out in your mind for 1 reason: because you don't see it often. The kid is hefty. He's mean (though not too mean yet). And he gets the job done. When the job gets tougher; he excels. He plays against the top lines of other teams every night. He played nearly 30 minutes in the most important game of the season last game. If this doesn't show that he's vastly superior to our other defensemen and has extremely high value because he's such a good player, I don't know what does.

However, maybe you don't think offering him under $3 is lowballing him, but experts on the subject estimate a near $3.5-4 range contract. Most of your fellow HF'ers think so as well, and definitely over 3. So is everyone else wrong, and you're just right? Or are you simply not changing your mind? In the meantime, we'll wait until the summer when the extension is actually finished to extend this argument.

Trust me, I understand how valuable Staal is. He, like Lundqvist, is an anchor of this team and one of few in the league that are elite (or will be) at their position.

However, when it comes to a cap, I just have a general reluctance on quite a bit of players because of the Drury and Redden contracts (just to name some close to home). There are obviously contracts around the league that are with them.

While some may think Callahan and Dubinsky may have been lowballed, I actually agree with their current contracts.

You should gradually increase. I have posted on Blueshirt Banter most of the year saying that id sign Staal to 2.8 million per. and while 2.8 and 3 might not look all that different, in a cap world, 200,000 does make a difference.

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04-14-2010, 11:45 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Jaromir Jagr View Post
Yeah - the BIGGEST contracts. Some of those contracts do consist of premier defenseman.

And we're not talking about BIG contracts or BIG dollars. $3-4 mill is not "the biggest contracts" it's simply a contract in the medium range that someone who has completely excelled since converting from juniors to the NHL on his ELC deserves.

And--how does our best defenseman, not "ultimately matter?" Because he doesn't score 15 goals a year?

How many of those contracts are shutdown guys?

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04-14-2010, 11:46 PM
  #170
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I advocate Staal at 2.8 per.

Thats my stance.

Not 3+, at least not yet.

So 765,000 to 2.8 for another 2 years til hes out of RFA status.

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04-14-2010, 11:47 PM
  #171
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How many of those contracts are shutdown guys?
More than you'd think, if I had to guess.

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04-14-2010, 11:51 PM
  #172
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I advocate Staal at 2.8 per.

Thats my stance.

Not 3+, at least not yet.

So 765,000 to 2.8 for another 2 years til hes out of RFA status.

Ok, that's your stance.

You're going to be unhappy when he is extended.

Your opinion is plenty valid; you're more than entitled to it.

Marc Staal will be, in your opinion, overpaid. That's pretty much the end of the story. There simply isn't a very good likelihood that he's signed for less than 3M.

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04-14-2010, 11:52 PM
  #173
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Originally Posted by Zetterqvist24 View Post
Ok, that's your stance.

You're going to be unhappy when he is extended.

Your opinion is plenty valid; you're more than entitled to it.

Marc Staal will be, in your opinion, overpaid. That's pretty much the end of the story. There simply isn't a very good likelihood that he's signed for less than 3M.
That's what I'm trying to say.

If you think he's not worth more than $3, fine.

If you think he is, fine.

However, he's getting $3+. So be prepared.

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04-14-2010, 11:53 PM
  #174
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Originally Posted by Zetterqvist24 View Post
Ok, that's your stance.

You're going to be unhappy when he is extended.

Your opinion is plenty valid; you're more than entitled to it.

Marc Staal will be, in your opinion, overpaid. That's pretty much the end of the story. There simply isn't a very good likelihood that he's signed for less than 3M.

Redden and Drury's contracts factor into this. If we simply had more money to deal with, then id agree at 3.

Theres also Girardi we have to worry about.

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04-14-2010, 11:55 PM
  #175
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Redden and Drury's contracts factor into this. If we simply had more money to deal with, then id agree at 3.

Theres also Girardi we have to worry about.
Now you're changing the subject. Suddenly, if we didn't have Redden and Drury, you think Staal is worth more money? That doesn't really make sense.

I see where you're coming from, but it's just not all making sense...

Girardi doesn't have to be worried about if he isn't in the future plans. It's 50/50 right now I'd say.

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