Disagree. Renney treated Redden as if he was still one of the best defensemen in the league. He played more minutes than Staal and didn't deserve to.
Redden started playing much better once Torts was hired last season. He ended the season strong and him and Rozy was our best pairing during the playoffs. Redden started out this season playing well, but then he got injured and started playing like crap again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
I'd argue that Torts got better use of Redden. Redden was pretty bad last season. He wasn't as bad during the stretch run last season compared to prior to Renney being let go. If you're solely talking points, then you're speaking apples to oranges. Torts used him differently (less PP) and that wasn't a bad thing as there were others to take Redden's place.
Under Renney, Redden was a competent 2nd pairing guy, and I think ALL of us would happily take that now.
Both of you guys are right that there were times where it looked like Torts was going to get the best out of Redden. By the same token, there was a time when Kotalik was red hot from the point on the PP.
SOMETHING happened to these player/coach relationships along the way that changed all that. Any insight?
prust doesnt have to play under the "avery" rules either. thats huge.
i like prust and avery both on next years team.
i do not like either playing any minutes top 6
as long as they play bottom 6 minutes, they are both assets as they are both sandpaper and grit.
something we sorely lack.
After watching the season-end debacle aginst Philly, I find it hard to believe that everyone hasn't yet figured out the problem is that no one generates offense. None at all.
The ONLY thing the Rangers had in that game, outside of Henrik, was a bottom line that played with grit. Adding Avery to that game adds nothing. Adding someone who puts the oppostion on its heels is what is needed.
Avery caused the Avery Rules. They didn't magically appear. If a player brings trash upon himself, you can't then whine about the way he is treated. It's part of the package of having Avery. It's a gigantic negative strike against him and has to be considered when weighing his value.
as great of a finish as prust had hes still no better of a player then avery. just look at the difference in points.
It's not about points. Prust came to play every game. Avery didn't. Avery gets hurt every year. He is a time bomb. He is hated by the refs. Prust might score a little less but his game overall is better, in my opinion. I understand it could all be a short tenure oasis, however.
In any case, Avery always seems to be about what could be if only....
Nicole:
Do you have any idea who the guys in the locker room are who are causing the problems Torts has been referring to?
Wednesday April 14, 2010 1:06
Not that I would agree with his assessment, especially since we have less access and players are more cautious...but my guess: Kotalik, Vally, Brashear, (gone) Redden, Avery, Voros, Lisin
i didnt have time to really read the story but what kind of problems have they been? is he meaning by play or causing issues in the locker room about playing time, or not getting along with torts?
It's not about points. Prust came to play every game. Avery didn't. Avery gets hurt every year. He is a time bomb. He is hated by the refs. Prust might score a little less but his game overall is better, in my opinion. I understand it could all be a short tenure oasis, however.
In any case, Avery always seems to be about what could be if only....
I'm tired of waiting for him to blossom.
Avery did not come to play every game becuase Torts muzzled him. When the team began the stretch run, and prior to his injury, he was one of the better players. Avery is what he is. A good 3rd line player, who can score 20 and play on the second line if needed. He is also one of the only players who brings the fight to the other team.
Prust is also what he is. A solid 4th line player.
It's not about points. Prust came to play every game. Avery didn't. Avery gets hurt every year. He is a time bomb. He is hated by the refs. Prust might score a little less but his game overall is better, in my opinion. I understand it could all be a short tenure oasis, however.
In any case, Avery always seems to be about what could be if only....
I'm tired of waiting for him to blossom.
they fill different roles thats why i look at points. colton orr always showed up as well but that didnt mean his play negated what avery brought to the team. yes avery is not thought of well by the referees but there are a number of other players that the refs dislike as well. players that cry and whine to the officials is not something they tend to take well, avery is not liked but neither is joe thornton. i dont feel the rangers have ever been screwed over just because averys on the team.
as for the injury issue. i was thinking about that recently and i agree. its starting to bug me much in the same way i didnt like the gaborik signing. i dont like players that are supposed to be key parts being injured all the time. in 08 avery was hurt for a long stretch of the season and now he got injured again. right now i dont know if i consider his injuries a fluke or a trend at this time.
Avery did not come to play every game becuase Torts muzzled him. When the team began the stretch run, and prior to his injury, he was one of the better players. Avery is what he is. A good 3rd line player, who can score 20 and play on the second line if needed. He is also one of the only players who brings the fight to the other team.
Prust is also what he is. A solid 4th line player.
Your synoposis of Avery is if everything, and I mean EVERYTHING broke right, and he brought it every game (which clearly wasnt the case this season).
Its what we all hope for Avery to be, but unfortunately, its just not reality.
Under Renney, Redden was a competent 2nd pairing guy, and I think ALL of us would happily take that now.
Both of you guys are right that there were times where it looked like Torts was going to get the best out of Redden. By the same token, there was a time when Kotalik was red hot from the point on the PP.
SOMETHING happened to these player/coach relationships along the way that changed all that. Any insight?
Both Redden and Kotalik are players who are no longer capable of (or in Kotalik's case, never has been capable of) playing at an elite level for an extended period of time. And when they struggle, they struggle badly, and can no longer be relied upon in the role they once had.
When Redden and Kotalik were playing poorly, Torts opted to give them less playing time, like when Kotalik was demoted to the 4th line, and even scratched them for a few games. The players couldn't handle it and didn't understand why they were benched. They felt entitled to play every game because they played well a month or two ago.
Redden, unfortunately, is done. Physically, he can't maintain playing at a high level the entire season. He'll have stretches where he'll play well and then he'll start struggling again.
Kotalik is just a headcase and has been inconsistent throughout his entire career. His poor play continued in Calgary: 3 goals and 2 assists in 26 games played. He played well to start the season and some were misled into thinking he would play that way the whole year. It turned out to be his only hot streak of the season.
Avery cannot play the type of game he needs to play for more than a few games at a time without getting hurt.
Been saying this for 2 years now.
Not a bad guy to have on OUR team at the price, but in order for him to be as effective as we need him to be, he has to play a type of game he is just not physically cut out for.
He is not durable enough to do it and NOT get injured. This has happened every year now.
I think Redden has been the same under Torts as he was under Renney. Adding that other Dman to cutdown on Redden's minutes was the key though, and one which Renney was advocating for.
Last year we brought in Derek Morris, Nik Antropov and instead of scoring 2 or 3 goals a night we were scoring 4 or 5.
7 games last March we scored 4 or more goals compared to 2 or 3 games each month leading up to that.
With Redden and Jokinen gone, about $12m will be freed up, so money should no longer be a huge concern in the short-term. I think it'd be a mistake to dump Avery so quickly.
Its a possibility sure, but I can't think of one single reason not to.
He's been horrible for 2 years now with the season, his last chance to improve him game was this year.
I could see Dolan not being willing to sink all that money into a non-player (I know, Knicks, blah blah, Holik, etc), or Sather saying "one more year" or something along those lines. It's entirely possible, and I'd even say 50/50. So why have your coach burn bridges if there's no guarantee the guy is gone? All those buttons that Sather can push, that you alluded to earlier, well Torts can lean on Slats to do that all he wants without making anything public or repeatedly chastising a player.
I'd just rather Tortorella err on the side of caution for once.
I don't get why people want avery gone, the guy has some talent and added along with his grit and ability to draw penalties he is a great part of this teams success. He also is a leader, just look at what he did in montreal when he called the team out. Come on open your damn eyes this guy is a must on this team.
I could see Dolan not being willing to sink all that money into a non-player (I know, Knicks, blah blah, Holik, etc), or Sather saying "one more year" or something along those lines. It's entirely possible, and I'd even say 50/50. So why have your coach burn bridges if there's no guarantee the guy is gone? All those buttons that Sather can push, that you alluded to earlier, well Torts can lean on Slats to do that all he wants without making anything public or repeatedly chastising a player.
I'd just rather Tortorella err on the side of caution for once.
If it means getting a better D-man and increasing the Rangers chances at making the playoffs next season, I don't see Dolan caring about dumping Redden in the minors.
Under Renney, Redden was a competent 2nd pairing guy, and I think ALL of us would happily take that now.
Both of you guys are right that there were times where it looked like Torts was going to get the best out of Redden. By the same token, there was a time when Kotalik was red hot from the point on the PP.
SOMETHING happened to these player/coach relationships along the way that changed all that. Any insight?
Yeah Kotalik/Redden are no longer consistently good players. Oh wait it cant be that it HAS to be Torts' relationship with them right?
If it means getting a better D-man and increasing the Rangers chances at making the playoffs next season, I don't see Dolan caring about dumping Redden in the minors.
Well, I guess it depends on whether Dolan trusts Sather to use the cap space saved on Redden to bring in a legit player, and not another Redden. Indications are that Dolan and Slats are close, so he probably does, but who knows...
Well, I guess it depends on whether Dolan trusts Sather to use the cap space saved on Redden to bring in a legit player, and not another Redden. Indications are that Dolan and Slats are close, so he probably does, but who knows...
The Rangers have plunty of cap space to re-sign both those guys without waiving Redden. The waiving of Redden will be because the Rangers signed or traded for a top 4 d-man (More then likely at least).
The Rangers have plunty of cap space to re-sign both those guys without waiving Redden. The waiving of Redden will be because the Rangers signed or traded for a top 4 d-man (More then likely at least).
As much as I love Avery, I think he is no longer effective. The referees have his number every game and get called for ANYTHING that even looks like a penalty. We have our grit with Prust and Shelly and Avery's 2 millions could be spent elsewhere. If he is gone, I'll miss that crazy mo fo
As much as I love Avery, I think he is no longer effective. The referees have his number every game and get called for ANYTHING that even looks like a penalty. We have our grit with Prust and Shelly and Avery's 2 millions could be spent elsewhere. If he is gone, I'll miss that crazy mo fo
I'm not going to argue Avery's value or anything, but I think he showed after his benching that he's still capable of being an effective player. Whether or not he can be that player here, for us, and consistently, is another story... But he's not done, by any means.
With Redden and Jokinen gone, about $12m will be freed up, so money should no longer be a huge concern in the short-term.
It is when you consider that:
1) Redden has to be replaced
2) Jokinen has to be replaced
3) Staal has to be re-signed
4) Girardi has to be re-signed or replaced
5) Prospal has to be re-signed or replaced
That 12 mil will turn into 5 or 6 mil really quick.
