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Two Deals this Summer

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Old
05-06-2004, 06:06 PM
  #1
Asiaoil
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Two Deals this Summer

If I am Kevin Lowe I try to pull only 2 deals this summer – both big.

Deal #1 – Ryan Smyth for Martin Havlat
Yeah it’s been talked about to death but there is a reason – it makes sense for both teams. We desperately need a top line RW sniper (Hemsky will never be that) and the Sens need a gritty top line LW. This is a Nieuwendyk – Iginla type of deal that helps both teams substantially. Just do it already as the Sens are probably finally ready to deal. We would be fine at LW with Torres, York, Moreau, Chimera, Rita, Miknov and maybe even another young LW like Picard if we are able to draft him.

Deal #2 – Ales Hemsky and Brad Isbister for Nathan Horton
Now that we have a top line RW – we can use Hemsky and Isbister to get our big young center. I don’t know if Florida is willing to deal Horton – but they have Jokinen, Weiss, Horton, Stewart and Cullen – that’s a lot of depth. They could certainly use a talented young RW like Hemsky with Bure and Kozlov gone, and a vet like Isbister gives them size on the wing. Horton is big, a center, and he can score – just what the doctor ordered for us.

Torres Nedved Havlat
York Horton Dvorak
Moreau Reasoner Pisani
Horcoff/Chimera Stoll Laraque

Brew Smith
Semi Staios
Cross Ulanov MAB

Conklin Maarkanen

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Old
05-06-2004, 06:16 PM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaoil
If I am Kevin Lowe I try to pull only 2 deals this summer – both big.

Deal #1 – Ryan Smyth for Martin Havlat
Yeah it’s been talked about to death but there is a reason – it makes sense for both teams. We desperately need a top line RW sniper (Hemsky will never be that) and the Sens need a gritty top line LW. This is a Nieuwendyk – Iginla type of deal that helps both teams substantially. Just do it already as the Sens are probably finally ready to deal. We would be fine at LW with Torres, York, Moreau, Chimera, Rita, Miknov and maybe even another young LW like Picard if we are able to draft him.

Deal #2 – Ales Hemsky and Brad Isbister for Nathan Horton
Now that we have a top line RW – we can use Hemsky and Isbister to get our big young center. I don’t know if Florida is willing to deal Horton – but they have Jokinen, Weiss, Horton, Stewart and Cullen – that’s a lot of depth. They could certainly use a talented young RW like Hemsky with Bure and Kozlov gone, and a vet like Isbister gives them size on the wing. Horton is big, a center, and he can score – just what the doctor ordered for us.

Torres Nedved Havlat
York Horton Dvorak
Moreau Reasoner Pisani
Horcoff/Chimera Stoll Laraque

Brew Smith
Semi Staios
Cross Ulanov MAB

Conklin Maarkanen
Horton is basically untouchable in FLA and FLA would be unlikely to bite on Izzy's trade value.

I don't know about the Havlat deal. Seems like it could help both teams, but Ottawa gets a bit older, a lot less talented, and more expensive.

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05-06-2004, 06:34 PM
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I'd be willing to part with Izzy and not get a body in return. In my mind he's one of the guys clogging up the left side depth and isn't worth close to $2M.

How high a pick is he worth? A 3rd? Consider the money saved and the door opening for either Rita or Mikhnov so it can be determined if either prospect has what it takes.

You still have Smyth, Torres, Moreau and Chimera.

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05-06-2004, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Flaming
I'd be willing to part with Izzy and not get a body in return. In my mind he's one of the guys clogging up the left side depth and isn't worth close to $2M.
I personally would like to give Isbister another half of a season before we consider trading him. He has shown glimpses of what he can do, and last season, he was hindered by injuries. Hopefully, he can break out of his shell during training camp and never look back.

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05-06-2004, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC Trojans
I personally would like to give Isbister another half of a season before we consider trading him. He has shown glimpses of what he can do, and last season, he was hindered by injuries. Hopefully, he can break out of his shell during training camp and never look back.

I see it the same way. Isbister had bad luck this season and he showed, what he is able to do. Do not write him off to early, like everybody tried to write off Moreau the last 2 years....i still can remember all that "get rid of Moreau stuff - even if we just get a pick". Moreau was our "Schatlivy". Now it´s Isbister, but i think that he improved, but wasn´t healthy.

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05-06-2004, 07:04 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC Trojans
I personally would like to give Isbister another half of a season before we consider trading him. He has shown glimpses of what he can do, and last season, he was hindered by injuries. Hopefully, he can break out of his shell during training camp and never look back.

I agree I really think he deserves another shot before we dump him. He also has almost NO valuse right now so why move him? At least this way he gets a shot at raising his value as it can't get any lower...

Lets give him a year and see what he can do.

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05-06-2004, 07:13 PM
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Havlat for Smyth ought to be a slam dunk for the Senators. However, those thinking that Ottawa is going to get much cheaper.. consider Havlat's potential stat output and recent contract problems. For that reason, as an Oiler fan, I'd keep Smyth. Smyth wants to play in Edmonton for less money. For many reasons, I see Havlat looking for $6 million or something stupid, and then demanding a trade. Besides, quite frankly, I think Havlat is quite overrated.

The Panthers would be insane to trade Nathan Horton. Remember, they think he was the best prospect in the draft .. and they may be right judging from what he was doing during the regular season before he got injured.

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05-06-2004, 07:13 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bakos
I see it the same way. Isbister had bad luck this season and he showed, what he is able to do. Do not write him off to early, like everybody tried to write off Moreau the last 2 years....i still can remember all that "get rid of Moreau stuff - even if we just get a pick". Moreau was our "Schatlivy". Now it´s Isbister, but i think that he improved, but wasn´t healthy.
When Izzy retires in 2011, he'll be able to say "If only I would have been able to put together one season where I was healthy for 82 games and tried hard at the same time. Oh well, at least I made some money during my time in the league."

Guy is 100% correct, Brad right now is taking a spot away from a few more-than-able guys who would fight like hell to keep their spot on the team and cost alot less.

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05-06-2004, 07:17 PM
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would isbister for antropov be fair value?

although the havlat for smyth deal seems to be fair value, we would be in the same boat as last year - 3 small guys in the top 6. If we trade for Havlat, one of york or Hemsky has to go. York is our MVP so a havlat deal means hemsky is gone. The org is too high on Ales to let themselves get into that position.

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05-06-2004, 07:43 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Sakich
would isbister for antropov be fair value?

although the havlat for smyth deal seems to be fair value, we would be in the same boat as last year - 3 small guys in the top 6. If we trade for Havlat, one of york or Hemsky has to go. York is our MVP so a havlat deal means hemsky is gone. The org is too high on Ales to let themselves get into that position.

Isbister for Antropov would, indeed, be fair. Having watched Izzy for years on the Island, I still think he has a great deal of talent. He lack offensive creativity, but has got the wheels and hands to be a decent scorer. I think those ridiculous comparisons to Todd Bertuzzi were always way off. But, if Isbister ever got his act together, he could be a big mean 20 - 25 goal scoring winger. The problem however is that he gets hurt ever time he gets into any kind of a groove.

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05-06-2004, 07:48 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USC Trojans
I personally would like to give Isbister another half of a season before we consider trading him. He has shown glimpses of what he can do, and last season, he was hindered by injuries. Hopefully, he can break out of his shell during training camp and never look back.
While it would be nice... Isbister at the very least has to take a massive paycut from the 2 million he "earned" this season. I probably wouldn't sign him for more than 1.2 million next year.

Those glimpses are all well and nice but they happen both infrequently from game to game and even shifts within games as well.

I'm not convinced Isbister will be anything but a disappointment in his NHL career. IMO, he's only crowding the roster without providing anything tangible to the lineup. I wouldn't mind to be proven wrong but I have very serious doubts as to whether Izzy will ever break out.

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05-06-2004, 07:54 PM
  #12
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Havlat - in a word, no. Contract wise, the guy already has held out once and he will likely demand more should he even come close to replicating his success this season. He would quickly play himself out of the Oilers ability to re-sign him. If we do get him, I wouldn't be surprised if another Comrie situation occurred soon afterwards.

Horton - yes, I would do it, but Florida wouldn't. We would have to significantly overpay for Horton, and even then I'm still not sure they'd do it. Horton is pretty close to untouchable as far as young prospects goes.

Of course, if the new CBA were to put some sort of salary limit on players under a certain age or some other sustainability measures into effect, then I'd do the Havlat deal.

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05-06-2004, 08:15 PM
  #13
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havlat = anson carter

always a contract hassle and doesn't play when the going gets tough.

and if we even called florida looking for horton in a trade i'm sure the reaction would pretty much be

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05-06-2004, 08:38 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloned
Havlat - in a word, no. Contract wise, the guy already has held out once and he will likely demand more should he even come close to replicating his success this season. He would quickly play himself out of the Oilers ability to re-sign him. If we do get him, I wouldn't be surprised if another Comrie situation occurred soon afterwards.

Horton - yes, I would do it, but Florida wouldn't. We would have to significantly overpay for Horton, and even then I'm still not sure they'd do it. Horton is pretty close to untouchable as far as young prospects goes.

Of course, if the new CBA were to put some sort of salary limit on players under a certain age or some other sustainability measures into effect, then I'd do the Havlat deal.
Havlat - hold-outs and Ottawa are no strangers to each other - and the new CBA hopefully addresses many of the salary issues.

Horton - OK if he is untouchable then there is still Weiss and Jokinen and I would be happy to have either guy (especially Jokinen). Florida has a lot of what we need and a lot of our players are also probably pretty attractive to them.

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05-06-2004, 10:47 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaoil
Havlat - hold-outs and Ottawa are no strangers to each other - and the new CBA hopefully addresses many of the salary issues.

Horton - OK if he is untouchable then there is still Weiss and Jokinen and I would be happy to have either guy (especially Jokinen). Florida has a lot of what we need and a lot of our players are also probably pretty attractive to them.
Havlat - a new CBA that would solve the large-contract problem would make him an attractive proposition. However, I would still think twice because a contract holdout is indicative of more than just financial problems; it also indicates an attitude problem and this is not something you want to have with a player who will be your "top RW sniper."

Jokinen has been talked about many times on this board. He had one breakout season but I don't think that's enough to justify trading for him and labelling our future #1 center. Weiss I think is the more attractive option at this point but the asking price might be too high for such unproven talent.

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05-06-2004, 11:07 PM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Flaming
I'd be willing to part with Izzy and not get a body in return. In my mind he's one of the guys clogging up the left side depth and isn't worth close to $2M.

How high a pick is he worth? A 3rd?
C'mon Guy, tell us how you really feel.

Maybe you should delete this post before Ty finds it, you might get a job where you wind up interviewing Brad

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05-06-2004, 11:21 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oi'll say!
C'mon Guy, tell us how you really feel.

Maybe you should delete this post before Ty finds it, you might get a job where you wind up interviewing Brad

It's not that I don't like Izzy, I just think considering the money he's making, he's the one from the five LW's the Oil currently have that I would least mind seeing moved.

As for Ty... he doesn't want a piece of this... (THAT was a joke Conks!)

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05-07-2004, 01:15 AM
  #18
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Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
The problem however is that he gets hurt ever time he gets into any kind of a groove.
That's definitely his biggest problem. He had a really nice run of games going in the middle of the season then *boom*, he's out with an injury. I still think he can be a 25-30-55 player in this league.. I'm definitely in favor of giving him another half a year at least with some powerplay time and decent linemates (maybe Reasoner and Hemsky?).

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05-07-2004, 01:44 AM
  #19
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Trading Isbister shouldn't even be an option. Why in the name of all that's holy would Lowe qualify him to retain his rights??? $1.9 Million would be way better spent on Jason Smith and Petr Nedved. As for the clog on LW, I agree with Guy, but would toss another name into the mix: Salmelainen. I love the energy this guy brings and have a feeling he's not one to shy away from the physical play. He's a little tank out there, very hard to knock around because of his low center of gravity. I wouldn't mind letting both Isbister and Rita walk. If Isbister stays here it will be at WAY less than what he's pulling down now. $1-1.2M is about all I'd give him.

As for trading Smyth for Havlat, ARE YOU NUTS! Look at Calgary, they are winning based on goaltending, Iggy and hard work. We don't have a player of Iggy's callibre, but Smyth is certainly a harder worker than Havlat. What a horrible proposal. As for all the Hemsky critics, the guy is 20 years old. Two words: Miro Satan. Let the guy develop before clammering to deal him away.

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05-07-2004, 10:55 AM
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As much as I like Horton, I'd be very afraid to trade Hemsky at all, let alone for a guy who just had major shoulder work done. I Horton is going to be a "power forward" his shoulder is going to have to prove it can handle the load. I really have a hard time seeing any realistic trade proposal where the Oilers trade Hemsky.

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05-07-2004, 11:18 AM
  #21
Guy Flaming
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemsky4PM
As for the clog on LW, I agree with Guy, but would toss another name into the mix: Salmelainen. I love the energy this guy brings and have a feeling he's not one to shy away from the physical play. He's a little tank out there, very hard to knock around because of his low center of gravity.

Except Salmelainen plays RW. For much of the year in Toronto, that line was Rita-Cullen-Salmelainen.

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05-07-2004, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asiaoil
If I am Kevin Lowe I try to pull only 2 deals this summer – both big.

Deal #1 – Ryan Smyth for Martin Havlat
Yeah it’s been talked about to death but there is a reason – it makes sense for both teams. We desperately need a top line RW sniper (Hemsky will never be that) and the Sens need a gritty top line LW. This is a Nieuwendyk – Iginla type of deal that helps both teams substantially. Just do it already as the Sens are probably finally ready to deal. We would be fine at LW with Torres, York, Moreau, Chimera, Rita, Miknov and maybe even another young LW like Picard if we are able to draft him.
I know I have been hot and cold about Smyth but he has proven to be an Oiler through and through. He could potentially be a career Oiler. I don't know how many we've had if any. Sure he gives me fits some times but I wouldn't trade him for a headcase like Havlat. I don't know how high his value is right now since he hasn't put up great numbers but I'd expect more than Havlat in return (30 goals or no 30 goals). His value around the league will depend on: (1) if he makes Team Canada at the World Cup and (2) his performance at the World Cup.
Deal #2 – Ales Hemsky and Brad Isbister for Nathan Horton
Now that we have a top line RW – we can use Hemsky and Isbister to get our big young center. I don’t know if Florida is willing to deal Horton – but they have Jokinen, Weiss, Horton, Stewart and Cullen – that’s a lot of depth. They could certainly use a talented young RW like Hemsky with Bure and Kozlov gone, and a vet like Isbister gives them size on the wing. Horton is big, a center, and he can score – just what the doctor ordered for us.
[/QUOTE]
I can't see Florida giving up a potential star power forward for 2 inconsistent guys like Hemsky and Izzy. I personally like Izzy and hope he proves his critics wrong next season. All the tools are there he just needs to use them. I know most won't agree but I would put him ahead of Chimera when it comes to one or the other leaving. Hemsky just needs a little guidance. If Nedved returns then he might be the guy to help him along.

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05-07-2004, 11:26 AM
  #23
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[QUOTE=Mr Sakich]would isbister for antropov be fair value?[QUOTE]

well they're both underachievers but Antropov might have more upside.

with potential changes in Toronto I could see big Nik being moved but the Laughs might want a centre in return. He seems to be too injury prone to take a chance on. but I guess so is Brad.

tough call.

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05-07-2004, 11:27 AM
  #24
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[QUOTE=Joe Oilfan]

I can't see Florida giving up a potential star power forward for 2 inconsistent guys like Hemsky and Izzy. I personally like Izzy and hope he proves his critics wrong next season. All the tools are there he just needs to use them. I know most won't agree but I would put him ahead of Chimera when it comes to one or the other leaving. Hemsky just needs a little guidance. If Nedved returns then he might be the guy to help him along.
I think it's a bit premature to call Hemsky inconsistent this early into his career. I think his next season will go along way into determining what his value is to this club.

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05-07-2004, 12:32 PM
  #25
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Hemsky should not be moved unless it is to trade up in value. Like Hemsky + for Ruutu or something like that. Otherwise I say we keep him. he is 20 everyone. let him mature abit. How long did Nasland take to break out?

And everyone that say Hemsky can't score will be sruprised. he has a great shot and once he gets his confidence up a bit he will start scoring.

My prediction...

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