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Old
04-18-2010, 10:47 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by tgeezyband View Post
Omg, please don't resign him, I'd much rather have one more player with size take his spot.

To the guy who said give maltby and draper respect, um at the cost of that respect would you like to see one of our prospects go before we've even seen what he can do up here?

Kenny pushed ozzy out the door a few years back, he should quietly do the same with at least maltby. Williams is def gone next year hated that we signed him anyways.
I didnt say to give guys respect, I was saying they were getting no respect.

And who exactly is that our prospect that we can't afford to lose or rather have instead of Maltby and Draper? What do you mean by we haven't given them a shot? Preseason games and the camp are there to make the team, they failed.. not because of Draper or Maltby but because they weren't good enough. BTW I hope you are not going ballistic over losing Ritola.

Seriously if G.R has some can't miss talents... how come Kenny never brings them up or we never hear about them? and why does the team suck so bad? Tied for 3rd worst in the League.

Other prospects who haven't had their shot yet will have theirs next camp. Until they prove themselves, Drape and Malts should be kept IMO.

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04-18-2010, 10:50 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
It doesn't work the other way, really... at least, not with the cap assumptions I'm making here. Now, if the cap goes up to 58 million could Detroit afford bringing back Bert at 2 instead of Maltby at 883? Perhaps.

This isn't a 'who I think is better' discussion, it's a 'what can the team do under the cap' discussion.

Big difference.
* Tomas Holmstrom ($2.000m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / * Todd Bertuzzi ($2.000m)
Daniel Cleary ($2.800m) / * Darren Helm ($1.000m) / * Jiri Hudler ($2.750m)
Kris Draper ($1.583m) / * Justin Abdelkader ($1.000m) / * Patrick Eaves ($1.000m)

* Drew Miller ($0.750m) / * Mattias Ritola ($0.600m)

* Nicklas Lidstrom ($4.900m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($0.900m)
Brian Rafalski ($6.000m) / Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m)
Brad Stuart ($3.750m) / Jakub Kindl ($0.883m)

Chris Osgood ($1.417m) / Jimmy Howard ($0.717m)

That team has Bertuzzi and Hudler.

In: Hudler, Ritola, Kindl
Out: Lilja, Lebda, Williams, Maltby

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04-18-2010, 10:52 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Filppula View Post
Yep, agreed. And no offence to Maltby but we've really struggled since he's been out haven't we?
I think Malts is a good extra man option to have.

1) He doesn't have to play alot of game to be effective. Brining Ritola up would be wasting his talent and growth.
2) He is versatile and somewhat dependable
3) He has the experience of going all the way... 4 times
4) He knows system, players and ins and outs.
5) He is going to be cheap

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04-18-2010, 10:53 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Yemack View Post
I didnt say to give guys respect, I was saying they were getting no respect.

And who exactly is that our prospect that we can't afford to lose or rather have instead of Maltby and Draper? What do you mean by we haven't given them a shot? Preseason games and the camp are there to make the team, they failed.. not because of Draper or Maltby but because they weren't good enough. BTW I hope you are not going ballistic over losing Ritola.

Seriously if G.R has some can't miss talents... how come Kenny never brings them up or we never hear about them? and why does the team suck so bad? Tied for 3rd worst in the League.

Other prospects who haven't had their shot yet will have theirs next camp. Until they prove themselves, Drape and Malts should be kept IMO.
Who was going to come in and get a spot in camp? Let's be completely realistic here for a second. We had OPTIONS with players like Abby and Ritz, that's why they found themselves in GR this season. Ritola was excellent during training camp and pre-season games, Babs said so, the fact that he was with the team just before opening night said so. He had another year of waiver exemption and the club took that option up.

Ritola should in Detroit next season, he showed that in his stint with the Wings this season and with his excellent play down the stretch for GR.

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04-18-2010, 11:02 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Yemack View Post
At this point, Either two options dont appeal to me. How can you say for certain it will pan out just fine? I could see Huds replacing Williams but it's already done with Abby. It remains to be seen but what we have right now is pretty good, so why mess with it?

I don't know why Maltby and Drapes are getting no respect around here but I guess I'm alone. I don't think I saw anyone liking Draper and Maltby recently... but I'm not here to talk about them so I'll end it here.

Also, ProP, Howard will not, in any sense, will get Ozzie's money if he continues his ascension. It won't be Luongo's money but in my opinion, it will be significant enough to think about it from now. (Unless Lidstrom retires or plays for dirt cheap)

Getting back on topic, I still think it's an uphill climb for Huds to earn his spot.
When it is time for Howard to get a new contract, the team could look a lot different. Lidstrom and Holmstrom might retire, some players will leave or be traded. I understand that Howard will get a significant pay rise if he continues playing well, but if he takes more than a $4 million cap hit, we are ****ed. We have Datsyuk, Z and Franzen on big contracts already and no one knows the situation with Lidstrom. I'm just saying for next year Howard's contract is the least of our issues.

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04-18-2010, 11:04 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Filppula View Post
Who was going to come in and get a spot in camp? Let's be completely realistic here for a second. We had OPTIONS with players like Abby and Ritz, that's why they found themselves in GR this season. Ritola was excellent during training camp and pre-season games, Babs said so, the fact that he was with the team just before opening night said so. He had another year of waiver exemption and the club took that option up.

Ritola should in Detroit next season, he showed that in his stint with the Wings this season and with his excellent play down the stretch for GR.
Really? All i remember is that Ritola couldn't beat Brad May to our lineup when half of our team was out. Bab's can say whatever and I don't believe it in face value. He has a pretty good track record of saying nice things to our prospects... especially when the guy would be dejected after not making the team.

Also Ritola's play... was very average..to be nice. Nothing to go gaga about. I don't exactly remember how he played but I think guys like him are somewhat easy to replace in either UFA or looking hard through the AHL bin.

If Ritola was good enough to make the team, I mean really good enough, Kenny would have kissed Malts ass bye long times ago by putting him off the double waiver. The reality isn't that Ritola was a unfortunate cap casualty. Well.. he was.. in some ways but not the way you put it.

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04-18-2010, 11:16 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Hudler returning makes it fairly difficult to bring Bertuzzi back.

FORWARDS
Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) / Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Johan Franzen ($3.955m)
Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Daniel Cleary ($2.800m) / * Hudler ($2.750m)
* Tomas Holmstrom ($2.000m) / Kris Draper ($1.583m) / * Kirk Maltby ($0.883m)
* Justin Abdelkader ($0.850m) / * Darren Helm ($0.750m) / * Patrick Eaves ($0.650m)
* Drew Miller ($0.525m) / * Mattias Ritola ($0.511m)
DEFENSEMEN
Brian Rafalski ($6.000m) / * Nicklas Lidstrom ($5.500m)
Brad Stuart ($3.750m) / Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m)
* Andreas Lilja ($1.500m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($0.900m)
Jakub Kindl ($0.883m)
GOALTENDERS
Chris Osgood ($1.417m) / Jimmy Howard ($0.717m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS
ROSTER: 23; PAYROLL: $56.707m; CAP ROOM: $0.093m BONUSES: $0.000m

That gets everybody back except Bert.

Really, any way you slice it Hudler coming back after just one year puts the Wings in a significant bind.
Bert needs to play for the same deal to stay.
If Homer doesn't retire, he needs to take a tiny cut. Lidstrom needs to take a substantial cut.

And that's the big question: Will Lidstrom finally take a little less for the good of the team. This guy might have made more in salary than anyone in the history of the NHL.
I'm fine with Hudler coming back. We don't know if Homer is returning. We don't know what Bertuzzi wants. He'll help the powerplay. He'll help the general offense, whether that's on a scoring line or on the third line with Cleary and Helm or whoever.

What's hilarious is that nobody has even mentioned the possibility of trading a) Hudler or b) a roster player.

That's how foreign the idea of trading has become in the NHL.

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04-18-2010, 11:17 AM
  #33
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Ritola is the most overrated prospect in a long, long time. This guy has accomplished virtually nothing and lacks any real NHL-level skills, other than skating.

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04-18-2010, 11:19 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Filppula View Post
That team has Bertuzzi and Hudler.
True, but it's obviously missing a 7th defenseman, something Holland will almost absolutely need to have considering Kindl and Ericsson are 1/3rd of the rostered guys at the position.

And it's also assuming Lidstrom goes to 4.9. Personally I think that's a fair price, but I can absolutely see Lidstrom holding firm on 6 mil to be tied with Rafalski as the teams highest paid dman.

I think it's almost a foregone conclusion that Holland's going to want to go 13/7/2 with his roster if he can, or perhaps 12/7/2 if he needs the cap space.

Again, if the cap goes to 58 there is obviously more room and less immediate disaster, but at a certain point it becomes more about the roster space than the cap space. Detroit will be running out of one or the other pretty quickly in either scenario

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04-18-2010, 11:22 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Scottwood View Post
According to the Boston Globe, the cap could rise to $58 million.



http://www.boston.com/sports/hockey/...out/?page=full

What an effed up system.
So the real cap is $50M.

At least this way, everyone shares in the cap reduction. It's better than losing three or four players because of it.

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04-18-2010, 11:25 AM
  #36
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That's one heck of a discount you've got Nick taking, considering he's still one of the top defenseman in the league and will be on the top pairing.

Assuming he signs a fairly short contract, I can't see them getting the final year's numbers low enough to make that cap hit.
I'd love to see Lids say, hey boys, I've made close to $100 million in my career. I'll play for $4M this year.

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04-18-2010, 11:28 AM
  #37
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What's hilarious is that nobody has even mentioned the possibility of trading a) Hudler or b) a roster player.

That's how foreign the idea of trading has become in the NHL.
I've mentioned the possibility frequently, but Holland doesn't seem to do it that often. I think in his opinion if he signed a guy correctly to a deal he thinks he is worth... why would he need to move him?

I think trades happen pretty frequently in the NHL overall, it's just not something that Detroit specifically gets involved in too much anymore.

As far as Hudler goes, I absolutely agree. I think trading him is the smartest move unless Holland knows he can come in and play in the top 6.

As far as trading other roster players go, it's not like there are a whole bunch of options. The only significantly salaried players who don't have NTCs of some kind are Fil, Z, Franzen, Stuart and Kronwall. I think trading any of those guys to keep Jiri Hudler is about as close to suicide as you can get.

Stuart's NTC is essentially gone as well, but if the Wings are going to be promoting Kindl and keeping Ericsson, I get a little scared about shaking up the blue line too much all at once and ending up with a group of guys where the three mainstays are Lidstrom at 40, Raffy at 37, and Kronwall.

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04-18-2010, 11:36 AM
  #38
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I also mentioned trading Hudler for a top pick in this year's draft. But it will never happen

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04-18-2010, 11:38 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
I've mentioned the possibility frequently, but Holland doesn't seem to do it that often. I think in his opinion if he signed a guy correctly to a deal he thinks he is worth... why would he need to move him?

I think trades happen pretty frequently in the NHL overall, it's just not something that Detroit specifically gets involved in too much anymore.

As far as Hudler goes, I absolutely agree. I think trading him is the smartest move unless Holland knows he can come in and play in the top 6.

As far as trading other roster players go, it's not like there are a whole bunch of options. The only significantly salaried players who don't have NTCs of some kind are Fil, Z, Franzen, Stuart and Kronwall. I think trading any of those guys to keep Jiri Hudler is about as close to suicide as you can get.

Stuart's NTC is essentially gone as well, but if the Wings are going to be promoting Kindl and keeping Ericsson, I get a little scared about shaking up the blue line too much all at once and ending up with a group of guys where the three mainstays are Lidstrom at 40, Raffy at 37, and Kronwall.
Does Cleary's NMC last the entire time?
I like Cleary. But Eaves is the new Cleary. IMO, there are new Clearys in the scrapheap every year.

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04-18-2010, 11:40 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by tgeezyband View Post
Omg, please don't resign him, I'd much rather have one more player with size take his spot.

To the guy who said give maltby and draper respect, um at the cost of that respect would you like to see one of our prospects go before we've even seen what he can do up here?

Kenny pushed ozzy out the door a few years back, he should quietly do the same with at least maltby. Williams is def gone next year hated that we signed him anyways.
we've been over this here before. happened when Chelios' corpse cost us Quincey, and it won't surprise me to see it happen again.

oh, and just to throw this in there (for HD's sake) regarding seeing what prospects can do before losing them: can't believe we didn't start Jake McCracken for 40 games just in case he was a Vezina winner, blah blah blah...
if the Wings' brass likes what they see in the prospects, they'll give em a shot/spot. if they don't like what the see, they'll be gone and Malts will probably be back. just have to trust that they're right in their assessments of the prospects, and aren't missing something like they were w/ Q.

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04-18-2010, 11:40 AM
  #41
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I didnt say to give guys respect, I was saying they were getting no respect.

And who exactly is that our prospect that we can't afford to lose or rather have instead of Maltby and Draper? What do you mean by we haven't given them a shot? Preseason games and the camp are there to make the team, they failed.. not because of Draper or Maltby but because they weren't good enough. BTW I hope you are not going ballistic over losing Ritola.

Seriously if G.R has some can't miss talents... how come Kenny never brings them up or we never hear about them? and why does the team suck so bad? Tied for 3rd worst in the League.

Other prospects who haven't had their shot yet will have theirs next camp. Until they prove themselves, Drape and Malts should be kept IMO.
Abby and ritola would give more energy to our 4th lines next year, and I'm not going ballistic over drapes and maltby, just if we welcome hudler back with open arms we can give up all hope of a game changing free agent signing.

What exactly do draper and maltby give? We have plenty of guys with experience who'd help our future checking line guys. Youth and energy on the bottom line would be so much more useful and neither malts or draper have that anymore, I mean look at guys like talbot and kennedy off the pens, are they top guys? No, but how freaking annoying were they last year because they had tons of energy and the youth factor.

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04-18-2010, 11:44 AM
  #42
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No one had ever thought that this team was going to be players in this year's ufa. They had too much committed and they always go after their own players first, it will be the wait a week or month and see what you can pull off the scrapheap again this year.

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04-18-2010, 11:54 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Booyah! View Post
No one had ever thought that this team was going to be players in this year's ufa. They had too much committed and they always go after their own players first, it will be the wait a week or month and see what you can pull off the scrapheap again this year.
For sure, but at the start of the season with hudler leaving, Lilja not looking like he would comeback, and possible retirements in maltby/draper, and lidstrom coming back at a cheaper price, I had figured we could get someone in the 4 mil range, problem is nobody of big impact well take that small amount, not even frolov cuz other teams will overpay. If only guys thought more like hossa lol, he signed for around 5.3 with chicago and really no one other than kovalchuk should get as much as him.

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04-18-2010, 12:04 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Filppula View Post
Lidstrom $7.5 → $4.9
At this point I don't think we should hope that he takes a lesser cap hit. I think we should hope that he actually decides to come back next year. I really don't care about what his cap hit may or may not be right now. I just want him to decide and say that he won't retire yet. I've heard of some reports out of Sweden that make it sound like he's already decided that he'll retire. I really hope they're wrong.

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04-18-2010, 12:17 PM
  #45
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Hudler>Bert

JWill, Lebda, May r definitely gon. Meech probably to

Bert, Lilja and Maltby r up in da air if theres room and no better option Bert will be back i think Holland wants 2 bring Maltby back but i also think that hes too smart 2 bring him back just because of loyalty if we need a roster spot/cap room for a better FA or younger player(Ritola/Kindl). Lilja is a toss-up at dis point.

As for Hudler i'd love to have him back even though his cap hit is 2 high, I'd rather trade him and make a run at Frolov or Afinogenov but other teams will offer than more them we can afford anyway. So minds well jus keep Huds. I'd rather have him in top 6 than Bert or Cleary if not than hes a great 3rd liner

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04-18-2010, 12:22 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
I've mentioned the possibility frequently, but Holland doesn't seem to do it that often. I think in his opinion if he signed a guy correctly to a deal he thinks he is worth... why would he need to move him?

I think trades happen pretty frequently in the NHL overall, it's just not something that Detroit specifically gets involved in too much anymore.

As far as Hudler goes, I absolutely agree. I think trading him is the smartest move unless Holland knows he can come in and play in the top 6.

As far as trading other roster players go, it's not like there are a whole bunch of options. The only significantly salaried players who don't have NTCs of some kind are Fil, Z, Franzen, Stuart and Kronwall. I think trading any of those guys to keep Jiri Hudler is about as close to suicide as you can get.

Stuart's NTC is essentially gone as well, but if the Wings are going to be promoting Kindl and keeping Ericsson, I get a little scared about shaking up the blue line too much all at once and ending up with a group of guys where the three mainstays are Lidstrom at 40, Raffy at 37, and Kronwall.
I heard the Kenny even flew to Russia to meet with Hudler multiple times. Would he really go through all this trouble just to convince him to come back an then trade him? I really think the chance Detroit trades Hudler is less than 5%

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04-18-2010, 12:46 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Filppula View Post
I know he's still elite but for crying out loud, he IS 40 and he's earnt an absolute fortune over the years. Is a shade under $5 MILLION really a slap in the face?

If he's a good as leader as I think he is, he takes a discount at the age of 40.
He will take a discount, but you had him taking a pretty steep one.

If you agree he's still elite and will be a top pairing guy, age doesn't really matter that much.

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I'd love to see Lids say, hey boys, I've made close to $100 million in my career. I'll play for $4M this year.
It's really easy to pass on millions when it's someone else's money we're talking about.

How much do you think he's earned for Illitch in 18 years by helping to carry the Wings into the playoffs year after year?

Lids deserves his market value, with a hometown discount. Maybe it'll be 4 million, but that would still surprise me for one of the top 5 defenseman in the game, no matter how old he is.

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04-18-2010, 01:02 PM
  #48
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Trade him. He's small and slow and his price is too much. He has no loyalty.

This Coyotes series would chew him up and spit him out. I'd rather trade his rights. Get r done, Kenny.

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04-18-2010, 01:06 PM
  #49
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He will take a discount, but you had him taking a pretty steep one.

If you agree he's still elite and will be a top pairing guy, age doesn't really matter that much.
It does matter. You're paying guys for what you expect them to do, based on what they've done in the past.
How do you ignore age in that equation when talking about a 40-year-old.

Quote:
It's really easy to pass on millions when it's someone else's money we're talking about.
Sure is.

But I'd like to think he's willing to sacrifice for the team and not just a me-first greed head.

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How much do you think he's earned for Illitch in 18 years by helping to carry the Wings into the playoffs year after year?
Like I said, if there's a player who has made more than Nik Lidstrom in his career, I can't name him, of the top of my head.

Lidstrom has been more than adequately paid.
Right now, he's the third highest defenseman in the game. There was a time when he was the highest paid player in the game ($10M a year). Even early in his career, he was making a premium because he threatened to raise his kids in Sweden.

If only Nick were as aggressive in front of the net as he is at the barganing table.

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04-18-2010, 01:08 PM
  #50
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Really? All i remember is that Ritola couldn't beat Brad May to our lineup when half of our team was out. Bab's can say whatever and I don't believe it in face value. He has a pretty good track record of saying nice things to our prospects... especially when the guy would be dejected after not making the team.

Also Ritola's play... was very average..to be nice. Nothing to go gaga about. I don't exactly remember how he played but I think guys like him are somewhat easy to replace in either UFA or looking hard through the AHL bin.

If Ritola was good enough to make the team, I mean really good enough, Kenny would have kissed Malts ass bye long times ago by putting him off the double waiver. The reality isn't that Ritola was a unfortunate cap casualty. Well.. he was.. in some ways but not the way you put it.
By that logic Helm and Abdelkader are no good either since they've played in GR until they ran out of options.

I think Ritola looked fine when he played on the Wings this season. I don't remember Helm and Abdelkader wooing anybody in their first few games in the big league either.

Edit: Anyone remember that sick deke Ritola pulled in one of the regular season games? Mick and Ken gushed over it... it had Datsyuk finesse to it... it was a thing of beauty, too bad he didn't score. Ritola can skate and has some sick moves. Can he finish? The jury is still out.


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