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What if canadian teams created their own league?

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Old
04-18-2010, 09:13 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lindrosfan88 View Post
I see no one has answered this. I rest my case.
What, you mean that was a survey? I thought it was a given that an NFL team in Toronto would be something of interest - although it'd probably come at the Bills' expense (or be the relocated Bills themselves).

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04-18-2010, 09:14 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
I didn't realize that waiting five hours on an international message board was enough time to build and rest a case.

As an American football fan, I'm fine with an NFL team in Toronto. I wouldn't mind seeing teams all across Canada, since I'm convinced that there's enough talent out there that there could be as many as 40 teams in a fairly balanced league.
See thats the point. The elitism is a sports thing not a NHL thing. people think thats a hockey problem, but asking someone in Charlotte or Houston, they would probably say no.

For the record, I want a 40 team NHL.

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04-18-2010, 09:23 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lindrosfan88 View Post
See thats the point. The elitism is a sports thing not a NHL thing. people think thats a hockey problem, but asking someone in Charlotte or Houston, they would probably say no.

For the record, I want a 40 team NHL.
You would be correct. When a Toronto buyer was reported as being one of the 3 or 4 front runners to buy the Rams and relocate them to Toronto, the reaction on the NFL boards that I browsed through were mostly negative.

However it should be noted though that the football/hockey argument aren't exactly the same as the Argonauts football team has been in Toronto since 1873 and there's actually people who believe that football was invented at the University Of Toronto. So its a little less of an "untraditional market" than many of the sunbelt hockey franchises but the general reaction seemed the same.

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Old
04-18-2010, 10:34 PM
  #29
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The NHL would have no choice but to negotiate a reasonable separation agreement with the Canadian cities.

The main problem would be the owners of the teams that leave to form a new league wouldn't let the NHL play in their arenas (why would they?) and anyone who took over the franchises for those cities would be almost guaranteed to lose $30 million plus per season. Once the TSN and CBC contracts ran out the losses would be even more. The new NHL clubs would be forced to play in much smaller arenas with much less amenities.

If those cities even let you build an arena in their cities who would be willing to risk $300 million plus on something that might not fly and it would take at least five years by the time you go from planning, building and actual completion of the building of the new arena (maybe longer).

Who would honour the $300 million per year in contracts that are signed by the previous NHL owners (6 teams x $50 million per year)? I would love to see the reactions of the remaining owners when Bettman brings that up at their private meetings.

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Old
04-19-2010, 12:11 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
Off topic but I believe Toronto not Montreal won the 1918 Stanley Cup.

The Stanley Cup was not the NHL's at that point.


Last edited by IU Hawks fan: 04-19-2010 at 12:26 AM.
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04-19-2010, 12:30 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by IU Hawks fan View Post
The Stanley Cup was not the NHL's at that point.
Point being? Toronto defeated the Vancouver Millionaires of the PCHL for the 1918 Stanley Cup.

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04-19-2010, 12:34 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
The NHL would have no choice but to negotiate a reasonable separation agreement with the Canadian cities.

The main problem would be the owners of the teams that leave to form a new league wouldn't let the NHL play in their arenas (why would they?) and anyone who took over the franchises for those cities would be almost guaranteed to lose $30 million plus per season. Once the TSN and CBC contracts ran out the losses would be even more. The new NHL clubs would be forced to play in much smaller arenas with much less amenities.

If those cities even let you build an arena in their cities who would be willing to risk $300 million plus on something that might not fly and it would take at least five years by the time you go from planning, building and actual completion of the building of the new arena (maybe longer).

Who would honour the $300 million per year in contracts that are signed by the previous NHL owners (6 teams x $50 million per year)? I would love to see the reactions of the remaining owners when Bettman brings that up at their private meetings.
lol no they wouldn't. There's absolutely no way that those six ownership groups could keep NHL teams out of buildings because the fans wouldn't put up with it. The city wouldn't put up with it. And the legal system wouldn't put up with it.

There is no way for the Canadian teams to split off from the NHL. Period.

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Old
04-19-2010, 12:35 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lindrosfan88 View Post
See thats the point. The elitism is a sports thing not a NHL thing. people think thats a hockey problem, but asking someone in Charlotte or Houston, they would probably say no.

For the record, I want a 40 team NHL.
I've lived in the American South and have no reason to believe that a good chunk of the population would be opposed to NFL expansion to Canada.

Quote:
Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
You would be correct. When a Toronto buyer was reported as being one of the 3 or 4 front runners to buy the Rams and relocate them to Toronto, the reaction on the NFL boards that I browsed through were mostly negative.
St. Louis has already lost a team once before, and the issue here is that the kids of the late Georgia Frontiere seem to be more interested in cashing out than in running a team.

Don't forget that there are plenty of large American cities without an NFL team as well, most notably Los Angeles.

Quote:
However it should be noted though that the football/hockey argument aren't exactly the same as the Argonauts football team has been in Toronto since 1873 and there's actually people who believe that football was invented at the University Of Toronto. So its a little less of an "untraditional market" than many of the sunbelt hockey franchises but the general reaction seemed the same.
Interesting parallel there. Although I don't believe the evidence supports a Toronto-based genesis for football (heck, football didn't really begin until about 1906, when the seven-man LOS rule changed it from a rugby scrum), it's certainly reasonable to suggest that there was football being played there in the 1860s or 1870s. There was a variation of rugby being played in New England during the American Revolution that involved a pig's bladder (hence the term "pigskin").

To the second point, there's plenty of "non-traditional" markets that have a hockey heritage. Miami had a team back in 1938, Nashville in 1962, Dallas in 1941, Houston in 1946, Phoenix in 1958, Los Angeles in 1927, and so on.

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Old
04-19-2010, 12:53 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by ReVeuF View Post
I am pretty sure it was discussed but maybe not lately. What would happen to the NHL if the 6 canadian teams leave and form another league ?

I think the NHL will die personnally and the cap will lower a lot before that.

6 teams (20%) generating over 30% revenues, this is without counting the TV contracts (basically mean Versus and local only). TSN would broadcast the Canadian teams, CBC we know they will be, RDS same...

So I do not understand why the canadian teams do not use their power to force the NHL to move teams in Canada. Hell if just the Habs and the Leafs leave the NHL it will make a big hole financially...
a canadian only hockey league will fail...

remember those canadian hockey professional leagues in the 1920s (PCHA and WCHL) went out of business since they could not compete with the NHL...especially those american cities (new york, chicago etc) had much more dough to pay players.....

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04-19-2010, 12:57 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by puckhead103 View Post
a canadian only hockey league will fail...

remember those canadian hockey professional leagues in the 1920s (PCHA and WCHL) went out of business since they could not compete with the NHL..
Really, do you have ample proof and a good backing to support this?
Comparing Canada's market to a time in the 1920's and 1970's (wha) to now?

Certainly the era of hockey will change once the KHL and the European Leagues that presumably will form will change the market of the NHL in the next 30 years.

Really, it's hard to say something will fail or succeed when everything always changes.

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04-19-2010, 01:36 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilyeu View Post
Really, do you have ample proof and a good backing to support this?
Comparing Canada's market to a time in the 1920's and 1970's (wha) to now?

Certainly the era of hockey will change once the KHL and the European Leagues that presumably will form will change the market of the NHL in the next 30 years.

Really, it's hard to say something will fail or succeed when everything always changes.
1: If these teams broke off to make a new league, how many of the players do you think would stay?

2. Saskatoon, Regina, the smaller cities that can't handle NHL teams as it is won't be able to afford the more talented players. They'll be stuck with junk players, and the teams won't be able to compete.

3. The skill level wouldn't be nearly as high. This would basically turn into a half NHL level, half AHL level league.

4. No Stanley Cup.

5. Whats the point?

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04-19-2010, 01:42 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by ReVeuF View Post
Those numbers are from 2008. They're out of date. Trying to find recent ones

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04-19-2010, 01:49 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by lindrosfan88 View Post
For the record, I want a 40 team NHL.
Just out of curiosity, who would you add?

Vegas?
Hartford?
Winnipeg?
Hamilton?

Probably the obvious ones, not sure who else.
http://theahl.com/stats/schedule.php...e&season_id=30

Hershey averaged almost 10,000 fans per game this year in the AHL. I'm sure they could get 14,000+ for an NHL team. Not sure if they could afford it though. (Apparantly the population of Hershey is only around 15000, Not sure how thats possibly)

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04-19-2010, 06:34 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
The NHL would have no choice but to negotiate a reasonable separation agreement with the Canadian cities.

The main problem would be the owners of the teams that leave to form a new league wouldn't let the NHL play in their arenas (why would they?) and anyone who took over the franchises for those cities would be almost guaranteed to lose $30 million plus per season. Once the TSN and CBC contracts ran out the losses would be even more. The new NHL clubs would be forced to play in much smaller arenas with much less amenities.

If those cities even let you build an arena in their cities who would be willing to risk $300 million plus on something that might not fly and it would take at least five years by the time you go from planning, building and actual completion of the building of the new arena (maybe longer).

Who would honour the $300 million per year in contracts that are signed by the previous NHL owners (6 teams x $50 million per year)? I would love to see the reactions of the remaining owners when Bettman brings that up at their private meetings.
The NHL would just add new teams in Toronto and Montreal , the others they could do without. I'm sure fans in those cities would rather watch Crosby and Ovie and Towes etc etc, as opposed to the stiffs that would play for the Halifax team.
It won't be hard to find an owner for a Toronto or Montreal franchise I can assure you of that, even if they have to build their own arena.
What makes you think that TSN and CBC would want to go with a CFL style league as opposed to the NHL with all it's stars.
With so few teams it would be a pretty short season not to mention the playoffs, unless you let all the teams make the playoffs .
This is such a mute point, I doubt MLSE would risk their golden goose on a fly by night league. Besides I doubt the existing Canadian teams want more Canadian teams.

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04-19-2010, 07:12 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skobel55 View Post
Just out of curiosity, who would you add?

Vegas?
Hartford?
Winnipeg?
Hamilton?

Probably the obvious ones, not sure who else.
http://theahl.com/stats/schedule.php...e&season_id=30

Hershey averaged almost 10,000 fans per game this year in the AHL. I'm sure they could get 14,000+ for an NHL team. Not sure if they could afford it though. (Apparantly the population of Hershey is only around 15000, Not sure how thats possibly)
All those plus,

Portland
Seattle
Houston
Salt Lake City
Hartford
Indianapolis
Milwaukee

Change Florida to Miami.


Last edited by Melrose Munch: 04-19-2010 at 08:02 AM.
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Old
04-19-2010, 07:34 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by lindrosfan88 View Post
I see no one has answered this. I rest my case.
Nobody answered your question because nobody knows what the hell you asked.

I recognize the words that you typed, but they don't make sense in that order.

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04-19-2010, 08:00 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
I've lived in the American South and have no reason to believe that a good chunk of the population would be opposed to NFL expansion to Canada.



St. Louis has already lost a team once before, and the issue here is that the kids of the late Georgia Frontiere seem to be more interested in cashing out than in running a team.

Don't forget that there are plenty of large American cities without an NFL team as well, most notably Los Angeles.



Interesting parallel there. Although I don't believe the evidence supports a Toronto-based genesis for football (heck, football didn't really begin until about 1906, when the seven-man LOS rule changed it from a rugby scrum), it's certainly reasonable to suggest that there was football being played there in the 1860s or 1870s. There was a variation of rugby being played in New England during the American Revolution that involved a pig's bladder (hence the term "pigskin").

To the second point, there's plenty of "non-traditional" markets that have a hockey heritage. Miami had a team back in 1938, Nashville in 1962, Dallas in 1941, Houston in 1946, Phoenix in 1958, Los Angeles in 1927, and so on.
Mayor Bee is a better promoter than some NHL teams.

But in all serious, I heard stuff like "the NFL is for America only!!!"

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04-19-2010, 10:49 AM
  #43
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wouldn't last long....4 out of the Original 6 are US-based teams....tells you all you need to know about the league....

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04-19-2010, 10:52 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
Point being? Toronto defeated the Vancouver Millionaires of the PCHL for the 1918 Stanley Cup.
You just made my point. That table said who the NHL Champion was. Not the Stanley Cup Champion.

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04-19-2010, 11:55 AM
  #45
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wouldn't last long....4 out of the Original 6 are US-based teams....tells you all you need to know about the league....
Actually the NHL was an all Canadian league from its inception in 1917 to 1924 when Boston became the first American team to join the league. The first games were played simultaneously on December 12th 1917 with the Montreal Canadiens playing the original Ottawa Senators and the Toronto team (which is sometimes referred to as the Arenas and in 1927 the name was changed to the Maple Leafs by Conn Smythe) playing and losing to the Montreal Wanderers.

It's hard to make a comparison from then to now although back then it appears from what I've read that the NHL expanded to the United States because of the potential cash that was available there not because they needed it to stay in business but I could be wrong. It's obviously a different reality now anyways. I don't think any NHL franchise would have cost $550 million, even taking into consideration the inflation over the years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IU Hawks fan View Post
You just made my point. That table said who the NHL Champion was. Not the Stanley Cup Champion.
The NHL Champion would have gone on to play the champions of the PCHL for the Stanley Cup in which case Toronto would have also been the NHL champions, not Montreal.

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04-19-2010, 12:20 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by lindrosfan88 View Post
Mayor Bee is a better promoter than some NHL teams.

But in all serious, I heard stuff like "the NFL is for America only!!!"
I'm sure such sentiment was out there, which is shameful. It's no different than the small number of pinheads in the mid-1980s who were bemoaning the fact that the Blue Jays were starting to build themselves into contenders while not located in America. There's a fine line between promotion and jingoism/bigotry.

The real question is this: who's doing the complaining? In baseball, it was a very small number of boneheads (who were all gone by 1992 anyway). In football, I haven't seen an article or editorial making the statement that "The NFL is for America, the CFL is for Canada". In the case of hockey...well, there's a reason why I've repeatedly referred to the Canadian media as vultures.

There's no defense for the anti-Canadian or anti-American attitudes. I understand that otherwise intelligent people can occasionally hold abhorrent viewpoints, but I have a difficult time reading through garbage that requires the complete suspension of logic for the sole purpose of appealing to the lowest common denominator.

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04-19-2010, 01:16 PM
  #47
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I have an idea...how about the US invades Canada (or vice versa) and turns Canada/US into one big country. All of the Canadian provinces would become states (or states would become provinces). Then we could finally put this moronic debate to rest.

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04-19-2010, 01:31 PM
  #48
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Thankfully none of the 6 Canadian NHL owners are as stupid as Tony George. If you follow or used to to follow North American open wheel racing you know what I mean.

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04-19-2010, 02:35 PM
  #49
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I'd be all for a Canadian league. Like most things in Life timing is evertything and now is the time for a Canadian League. Lets say in 10 or twenty years Hockey really catches on in the U S. Since the NHL is controlled by Americans where will they get the teams to supply the American demand. A U S city will build an arena to attract a team. Add in some tax incentives and teams like Edmonton, Calgary even Ottawa, will move. For example KC offers Edmonton a new arena and perks totalling 400 million plus, my guess is Katz says, it's been a slice Edmonton but see ya.

I don't believe the NHL will fight to stay in Edmonto. etc.. Wait too long the Canadian league won't work. Now is the time to do it, yesterday was better, but whatever.

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04-19-2010, 03:46 PM
  #50
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Thankfully none of the 6 Canadian NHL owners are as stupid as Tony George. If you follow or used to to follow North American open wheel racing you know what I mean.
Tony George IMO is one of the biggest fools in sports. CART racing, if you remeber, was number 1 in North American auto racing. NASCAR was an afterthough outside the south. Tony George comes and ruins it by whining about the Indy 500. Two series with the extact same premise competing against each other allowed NASCAR to take number 1. They recently merged back, but is too late now..

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