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Howard or Osgood in Game 4.

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Old
04-18-2010, 05:52 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
I have to say, I'm quite surprised by the sheer size of the pass it seems people are willing to give Howard, and I was already expecting it to be a pretty big one.

It's certainly an interesting dynamic between young James and most of the posters here. I wonder what will have to happen before that pass gets revoked.
It's only a pass if you believe Osgood would fare better. Otherwise, it's simply the right decision. Do you think the Wings chances of winning the series increase with Osgood coming in?

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04-18-2010, 05:58 PM
  #27
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You mean you have no faith in last years playoff MVP, and you have more faith in a playoff virgin. Logical.
It is logical, if you look at all of the relevant factors and not just those two. Whole pie > Slice of pie.

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04-18-2010, 06:31 PM
  #28
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Howard has played a few goals wrong ,,, But so have Rask and Niemi (1 mistake). Rookies make mistakes in there 1st playoff games

Ride the kid because he is your best option this year and he deserves the #1 job

Osgood has not played well this year and is a yr older. He is not a savior and keeping the Kid in net will be Wings best chance to win

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04-18-2010, 06:33 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arice89 View Post
Goaltending won't be the difference in this series.

The Wings look out of gas to me.
This.

Maybe if Detroit today wouldnt have **** the bed in the second and let the Yotes run around they could have gotten some momentum and took it into the third. But I guess thats Howard's fault.

Play Howard

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04-18-2010, 06:36 PM
  #30
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Howard let on soft goal go so far.

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Old
04-18-2010, 06:41 PM
  #31
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It's not panic mode yet people. Series is only 2-1 with lots of hockey left. Wings are likely going back to Phoenix tied 2-2.

Yes I am optimistic.

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04-18-2010, 06:50 PM
  #32
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I think you still stick with Howard for game 4, but if he lets in 2 goals in the first pretty quickly and Detroit hasn't scored yet, I think you make a switch to Osgood.

Osgood may be rusty, but he seems to relish the moment of coming to the rescue. If we are down 2-0 after the first, I can see a switch to Osgood changing the dynamic of the game and the wings coming back to take it. I wouldn't start Osgood though I think he would do worse if he had to start the game as opposed to coming in off the bench.

Howard hasn't been horrible, but there were a bunch of people here claiming we should pay him elite goaltender money. If he was elite, he should have at least stopped one of the goals he let in in each of these three games so far. He is a good goalie, and has proven my doubts so far to be wrong, but by no means is he even close to elite yet, and there is a good chance he never becomes elite.

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Old
04-18-2010, 06:52 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
I think you're confusing giving a pass with having zero faith in Chris Osgood.
No, not really. I think Howard is getting tons of excuses made for him when he's played fairly poorly. As I mentioned, I expected this (the excuses I mean)... I'm just a bit surprised by the sheer breadth of the excuse-making that's going on. Howard played badly on at least three of the four goals he allowed today.

First goal he gave up two huge rebounds on consecutive shots to keep the puck alive in the defensive zone, and eventually the third shot went in after a scrum. He needs to swallow up one of those shots.

Second goal he (surprise) gave up another huge, juicy rebound on a weak wing shot he should have swallowed up. Goal.

Third goal I have no idea at all what he was doing. He was up, not out far enough, retreating, not pokechecking. He just looked terrible there. Clueless and deer in headlights.

Fourth goal was just soft. Flat out soft. Beat short-side from 20+ feet. Vomit.

Even if people want to argue none of those goals were his fault, which is laughable but whatever, I think it's impossible to say his game has done anything but take a huge step back through the first three games of this series.

And we've already seen Osgood go from regular season crap to post-season gold. He did it just last year when his last two starts of the regular season were mediocre, but as soon as the playoffs started his game elevated.

Do I think Chris Osgood is a sure thing to be an improvement over Howard right away? No, of course not. Honestly, I don't think there are any easy answers here, because Babcock made this decision three months ago and now Detroit is stuck with a rookie goalie who looks to be crumbling while a vet with a metric f-ton of playoff experience is mothballed.

I think that sucks. I see how we got here, I saw it two months ago, but I don't have to like being right.

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Old
04-18-2010, 07:01 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
And we've already seen Osgood go from regular season crap to post-season gold. He did it just last year when his last two starts of the regular season were mediocre, but as soon as the playoffs started his game elevated.
Yeah, but the team played ****** defense all year last year and then turned it on in the playoffs. I think Osgood's numbers/play had a lot to do with that. Like I said in another post, Howard hasn't had that luxury thus far. The team has actually been worse in the playoffs than they were during the season.

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04-18-2010, 07:08 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
LOL.

Osgood was a cup winner and cup finalist with this team. Not only did he lose his job, but he was glued to the bench for three months.

That tells you all you need to know about how Mike Babcock views Osgood.
Agreed.

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Old
04-18-2010, 07:15 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by arice89 View Post
The team has actually been worse in the playoffs than they were during the season.
See, I think that's making another excuse for Howard. I really do.

Look, if the theory is Detroit's got to be playing lights out defense in order for Howard to give up less than 3 or 4 goals... what the hell was all the fuss about Howard this whole year for, then?

Yes, Detroit's not playing as well right now as they did for parts of their run to end the season... but then again they aren't playing Columbus, Minny, St. Louis and Edmonton a bunch either.

Phoenix is not some offensive powerhouse. They are a mediocre to poor offensive club with Radim freaking Vrbata as their leading scorer with 24 and not another guy with more than 20 and not a single guy with more than 55 freaking points.

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04-18-2010, 07:21 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
I can totally see him sticking with Howard, since he effectively obliterated any chance at having Osgood game-ready three months ago... which, by the way, I was hugely concerned about.
It's so nice that you have the benefit of omniscience to be able to tell Mike Babcock "I told you so." You realize of course that even if Jimmy does end up losing us the series, that doesn't mean the alternative wouldn't have been better. Maybe Babcock keeps giving Ozzy starts with 20 games left in the regular season, and Ozzy keeps ******** the bed, and the team's confidence crumbles around him, and we never go on that ridiculous streak to get ourselves into the playoffs in the first place. Sometimes when you have a tough decision to make, NEITHER choice is going to win you a Stanley Cup, so you just have to pick your best option and do what you can.

Right now I agree that Jimmy is not playing great. But I wouldn't trust Ozzy with so much as a game 1 at home right now, so I'm just going to keep hoping that Jimmy pulls it together or his defense picks it up even more to help give him his confidence back.

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Old
04-18-2010, 07:24 PM
  #38
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I'd rather put in a Goalie with NO NHL experience than Osgood. I like Osgood personally, but as a goalie, no, not at all.

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04-18-2010, 07:50 PM
  #39
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I've always said go after the freakin monster Gustavsson. Guy is exactly what the doctor ordered. Tall, fast and has the chance to become another Lundqvist.

He's gone on a 7 win streak with the crappy Leafs think about how well he would have done with our D!

So we would have Howard, Gustavsson and Osgood as a mentor for both ->great situation if you ask me. By the time our #5 retires either Howie oder Monster would be a top level.

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Old
04-18-2010, 08:09 PM
  #40
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Howie needs to be in there for the team's sake and his own. He gives them the best chance to win and will grow and become a better playoff goaltender by playing in anything but in a blowout loss. Ozzie is not only rusty, he's just not an effective goalie anymore, IMO. There have been a few soft ones past Howard, but the defense in front of him has been lacking to say the least.

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Old
04-18-2010, 08:28 PM
  #41
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In spite of the soft goal in game 3, Babcock isn't going to put in a goalie that hasn't played in months, and has played fairly poorly at that.

I've always been an Ozzie supporter, but claiming that he would make the difference now, is being typical Chicken Little Wings board foolishness.

If the Wings like they gave a crap, they might of won, but Phoenix was the much, much better team in game 3.

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Old
04-18-2010, 08:30 PM
  #42
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Lets think about this:

Taking Howard out shows you that the management and coaching staff doesnt give a damn about what experience this gives him. In other words they would rather enter next season with another goalie then Howard and Osgood. He needs this experience. Whether its a first round, 2nd, 3rd or 4th round playoff, he needs the experience to learn from it. Its the only way. Everyone in here that is crying wolf *****ed and whined when he sucked ass in October and wanted his head. Then he showed his ****, leading to a top 5 SV% league wide and they hoped back on the bandwagon, get over yourselves. In 1999 osgood let in more weak goals in one series then we could have imaged. **** happens and sometimes its about ****** goals. Let the kid learn from this and move on.

Also, take Howard out for game 4. What does that send to him? "We hung your ass out to dry all season, you bailed us out and now we say piss off." Thats ********. And, what if Ozzie goes out and ***** the bed? You really want to put the goalie you just threw under the bus back in? I highhhhhhly doubt that.

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Old
04-18-2010, 08:35 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
Lets think about this:

Taking Howard out shows you that the management and coaching staff doesnt give a damn about what experience this gives him. In other words they would rather enter next season with another goalie then Howard and Osgood. He needs this experience. Whether its a first round, 2nd, 3rd or 4th round playoff, he needs the experience to learn from it. Its the only way. Everyone in here that is crying wolf *****ed and whined when he sucked ass in October and wanted his head. Then he showed his ****, leading to a top 5 SV% league wide and they hoped back on the bandwagon, get over yourselves. In 1999 osgood let in more weak goals in one series then we could have imaged. **** happens and sometimes its about ****** goals. Let the kid learn from this and move on.

Also, take Howard out for game 4. What does that send to him? "We hung your ass out to dry all season, you bailed us out and now we say piss off." Thats ********. And, what if Ozzie goes out and ***** the bed? You really want to put the goalie you just threw under the bus back in? I highhhhhhly doubt that.
Well put. Let Howie learn from this, It will pay off in the future.

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Old
04-18-2010, 08:48 PM
  #44
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I agree Babcock will think about it. I believe he will stick with Howard. The team road Howie to this point and they likely want to stick with him. Its a different situation from two years ago when Hasek and Osgood split time and made the change easier to accept. This is Howies net and I believe Babcock will go to the playoff grave with him in there.

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Old
04-18-2010, 09:13 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
Lets think about this:

Taking Howard out shows you that the management and coaching staff doesnt give a damn about what experience this gives him.
They shouldn't. He's a big boy.

Quote:
In other words they would rather enter next season with another goalie then Howard and Osgood. He needs this experience. Whether its a first round, 2nd, 3rd or 4th round playoff, he needs the experience to learn from it.
So he wouldn't learn from playing poorly in 1 or 2 or 3 games, but he would learn from playing badly for the whole series? Sucking for 3 games would stunt his growth, but sucking for 5 or 6 would be a beneficial learning experience?

You can take that cab. I'll wait for the next one.

Quote:
Also, take Howard out for game 4. What does that send to him?
Play better.

Look, this is all on Howard. People can spin the pedals on the excuse bike for him as much as they want, but at some point it's incumbent on the goalie to play well, not be carried along by the rest of the team.

And, really, it's not like Osgood's anything but a longshot to be an improvement... but Howard's been mediocre to poor for all three games so far, with game 3 being his worst effort of the series.

Again, I think Babcock has welded himself to Howard. I think he made this decision a while ago and now he and we are both stuck with it. I hope it works out and Howard starts playing well.

However, I think if Howard continues to flail and be ineffective and Detroit goes out in 5 or 6 without ever getting Osgood in while the series is winnable, it's going to be almost impossible to not point out Babcock's decisions with the goaltending as a huge, huge question mark this playoff year, considering Osgood's elite level of play the past two.

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Old
04-18-2010, 09:18 PM
  #46
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Osgood has been on the bench for a reason.

Unless Howard pulls a Theodore in game four, don't get your hopes up

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04-18-2010, 09:22 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by TheOtherOne View Post
It's so nice that you have the benefit of omniscience to be able to tell Mike Babcock "I told you so."
Prescience, actually.

Quote:
You realize of course that even if Jimmy does end up losing us the series, that doesn't mean the alternative wouldn't have been better.
True. Then again, we don't know the alternative would have been worse, either. That's sort of the point. By doing what he did with the goalies so early, Babcock more or less made it impossible for him to do anything else now but stick with Howard.

That's why when it became more and more obvious that Babcock was mothballing Osgood with three or four months to go in the season I expressed concern that this is exactly the kind of thing that comes back to bite teams in the playoffs.

Unfortunately, the first three games are proving me right. I hope the next 13-20ish games in the playoffs prove me wrong.

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04-18-2010, 09:27 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
Osgood has been on the bench for a reason.
Totally agree.

Quote:
Unless Howard pulls a Theodore in game four, don't get your hopes up
Probably true.

Really, I don't want to see Osgood. I want to see Howard play well, succeed, and help advance the Wings deeper into the playoffs.

I just watch Howard play right now and don't see any way for the Wings to win unless he plays a whole helluva lot better.

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Old
04-18-2010, 09:30 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
That's why when it became more and more obvious that Babcock was mothballing Osgood with three or four months to go in the season I expressed concern that this is exactly the kind of thing that comes back to bite teams in the playoffs.
Do you blame Babcock? If he kept giving Osgood charity starts they might not even be in the playoffs.

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Old
04-18-2010, 09:35 PM
  #50
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No, not really. I think Howard is getting tons of excuses made for him when he's played fairly poorly. As I mentioned, I expected this (the excuses I mean)... I'm just a bit surprised by the sheer breadth of the excuse-making that's going on. Howard played badly on at least three of the four goals he allowed today.

First goal he gave up two huge rebounds on consecutive shots to keep the puck alive in the defensive zone, and eventually the third shot went in after a scrum. He needs to swallow up one of those shots.

Second goal he (surprise) gave up another huge, juicy rebound on a weak wing shot he should have swallowed up. Goal.

Third goal I have no idea at all what he was doing. He was up, not out far enough, retreating, not pokechecking. He just looked terrible there. Clueless and deer in headlights.

Fourth goal was just soft. Flat out soft. Beat short-side from 20+ feet. Vomit.

Even if people want to argue none of those goals were his fault, which is laughable but whatever, I think it's impossible to say his game has done anything but take a huge step back through the first three games of this series.

And we've already seen Osgood go from regular season crap to post-season gold. He did it just last year when his last two starts of the regular season were mediocre, but as soon as the playoffs started his game elevated.

Do I think Chris Osgood is a sure thing to be an improvement over Howard right away? No, of course not. Honestly, I don't think there are any easy answers here, because Babcock made this decision three months ago and now Detroit is stuck with a rookie goalie who looks to be crumbling while a vet with a metric f-ton of playoff experience is mothballed.

I think that sucks. I see how we got here, I saw it two months ago, but I don't have to like being right.
you've been wanting to jump out and yell "i told you so!" for months, hoping that Jimmy would show some chinks in the armor... and here we are.
nobody here is making excuses for Howie; it's unanimously agreed that he hasn't been as sharp as he needs to be. it's also unanimously agreed the defense is as much a problem as he is, but you've put some "see i was right, you're all blind fanboys making excuses and Howie's getting a pass" twist on nearly everybody's objective assessments of the first 3 games.

case in point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD
Quote:
Originally Posted by arice89
The team has actually been worse in the playoffs than they were during the season.
See, I think that's making another excuse for Howard. I really do.
you mean you see something that nobody else sees, and it conveniently supports your point of view? shocking.

thanks to his supporting cast, he's had to work harder than he should. should he still make the stops? yup. is he making them? nope. bad on him, bad on the supporting cast.
he's been bad, others have been as bad or worse, everybody needs to play better or we're going home.

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