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Howard or Osgood in Game 4.

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Old
04-18-2010, 09:47 PM
  #51
HockeyinHD
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Originally Posted by jacK View Post
you've been wanting to jump out and yell "i told you so!" for months, hoping that Jimmy would show some chinks in the armor... and here we are.
That's not true, but I can certainly understand why you would elect to say that, this being a messageboard and all.

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nobody here is making excuses for Howie; it's unanimously agreed that he hasn't been as sharp as he needs to be.
Well, that's not exactly an accurate representation of what's been said, but oh well.

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it's also unanimously agreed the defense is as much a problem as he is, but you've put some "see i was right, you're all blind fanboys making excuses and Howie's getting a pass" twist on nearly everybody's objective assessments of the first 3 games.

case in point:

you mean you see something that nobody else sees, and it conveniently supports your point of view? shocking.
Speaking of cases in point, that actually is a good one. I don't know if I saw something that no-one else saw, rather I saw something that no-one else wanted to contemplate.

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thanks to his supporting cast, he's had to work harder than he should. should he still make the stops? yup. is he making them? nope. bad on him, bad on the supporting cast.
he's been bad, others have been as bad or worse, everybody needs to play better or we're going home.
That's true, albeit somewhat simplistic. I think the single largest dropoff between the regular season and the playoffs so far on the Wings has been the goaltending. I agree that the skaters aren't playing as well as they did, but I think it's fairly self-evident that the goaltending is 'worser'.

So, absent the goaltending improving could the skaters play well enough to overcome Howard's play thus far and still beat the Coyotes? I suspect they could. Phoenix isn't really impressing me with anything they are doing. Where I think you and I tend to diverge is the point where you seem to be implying that since the skaters could be playing better as well, we shouldn't be leaning on Howard to improve. In other words, in order for Howard to get better the skaters need to improve first.

That's sort of the impression I'm getting from the general consensus here.

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04-18-2010, 09:55 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by arice89 View Post
Do you blame Babcock? If he kept giving Osgood charity starts they might not even be in the playoffs.
Here's the thing, it may not even matter. Osgood may in fact be totally done and whether he started 65 games or 4 he'd still suck and that's the end of it. Happens to everyone, and maybe it's happened to him.

The Wings made the playoffs by 6 points, finishing 7 ahead of the Avs. Would it have killed Babcock to get Osgood two more starts the last week or two of the season, considering the Wings were playing weaker teams for most of those games?

That's really all I'm saying. If Osgood had three starts the last couple weeks instead of one start the last three months at least the argument could be made that if the team needed him to bail out Howard he'd be at least somewhat game-ready.

Now? Putting Osgood in would almost be an act of desperation. Babcock has created a situation when he now has to start Howard, who may not be able to deal with the playoffs, because he can't start the guy who has a real playoff history because he hasn't played him in forever.

So... 'blame'? I don't know if I 'blame' Babcock for what he did. It's not like both Howard and Osgood didn't provide ample reasons for things to play out the way they did. I just would have liked to see Babcock at least keep the door cracked open for Osgood a little bit as opposed to slammed shut, locked, nailed, chained, buried, launched into space, and then blown up with a missle.

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04-18-2010, 09:56 PM
  #53
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i did not like howard's demeanor at the end of the game today when he was on the bench. he looked very down. I hope that his confidence isn't shot already

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04-18-2010, 10:30 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
That's true, albeit somewhat simplistic. I think the single largest dropoff between the regular season and the playoffs so far on the Wings has been the goaltending. I agree that the skaters aren't playing as well as they did, but I think it's fairly self-evident that the goaltending is 'worser'.

So, absent the goaltending improving could the skaters play well enough to overcome Howard's play thus far and still beat the Coyotes? I suspect they could. Phoenix isn't really impressing me with anything they are doing.
i'm with ya so far. goaltending is worser than it has been, but that doesn't mean his support hasn't also been worser (just to a lesser degree than he's been worser.)

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Where I think you and I tend to diverge is the point where you seem to be implying that since the skaters could be playing better as well, we shouldn't be leaning on Howard to improve. In other words, in order for Howard to get better the skaters need to improve first.

That's sort of the impression I'm getting from the general consensus here.
that's not the general consensus. i'm not saying this, i don't think anybody is saying this. he needs to improve AND the skaters need to improve. i know i said exactly that, as simply as could be:
Quote:
everybody needs to play better or we're going home.
if only one factor improves, it might get us by another game or two or three, but if we want to do any kind of damage at all in this series or the playoffs beyond, both the tender and the skaters need to be much much better.

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04-18-2010, 10:41 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Do I think Chris Osgood is a sure thing to be an improvement over Howard right away? No, of course not.
Do you think if Ozzie were brought in for game 4, he'd win 3 games before allowing Phoenix to win 2?


Last edited by jaster: 04-19-2010 at 09:18 AM.
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04-18-2010, 10:49 PM
  #56
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Okay, I'm an Ozzie fan, and I was hoping he'd get play time in these playoffs.

But Howard did do a good job in helping us get into the playoffs and he played pretty decent Game 1.

That said his performance in Game 2 and 3 wasn't bad, but could have better.

Things I notice about him is he gives up more rebounds than Ozzie would.

This is a tricky situation, when Hasek was replaced by Osgood in 08 we were up 2-0 in the series and then lost Game 3, 5-3 after we were up 2-0 after the first period.

Hasek got replaced in Game 4 when the Predators were up 3-1 in the 2nd.

So going by history I don't think Babcock will be patient.

The fact is Howard has sat in for 2 losses, and although it can be argued Game 1 wasn't his fault, he's allowed 4 goals last two games.

It's even harder for us because we can't afford to go down 3-1, so essentially if Howard messes up Game 4, that might be it, and if he's good and we win, if he messes up in Game 5 then what?

I think if Howard lets in 2 goals in the 1st Osgood should go in.

I expect us to play hard defense, so he shouldn't allow 2 in the first.

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04-19-2010, 06:37 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
No, seriously.

Was game 3 Howard's 'fault'? Nope, not really. Has he been anything but mediocre at the absolute best so far in the playoffs? Nope, not really.

The second goal of the game was 'vintage' Jimmy Howard. Soft shot from the wing, rebound kicked to the worst conceivable place, instant goal. Huge, huge game changer. Could that goal have been stopped if the dman completely tied up the Coyote? Probably, but at some point you need to be able to swallow up those shots and not make it an issue.

I have no idea what he was thinking on the third goal, either. Granted, abysmal play from the dman, but Howard just sucked down into the net. Why? Poke-check, son. At least pretend you're aggressive.

A quick note: the last time Osgood gave up 4 ES goals in a playoff game? 4/18/2003.

IMO, I think Babcock goes with Osgood in Game 4. That's a total gut feeling. I can totally see him sticking with Howard, since he effectively obliterated any chance at having Osgood game-ready three months ago... which, by the way, I was hugely concerned about.

And now, here we are. Howard's confidence has to be rocked right now. He's been average to bad in three straight games and the pressure level has just gone to 11. Game 4 is the biggest game of his career. If Babcock goes with Howard there and leaves a guy with Osgood's postseason resume on the bench, man oh man.

That'd take some big, brass stones. I hope it works out for him.
When there were 4 games to go, I thought Babcock would split them and give each goalie 2 games, but he went 3 with Howard and just 1 game with Osgood. Then I was concerned. I mentioned it several places and I think there were posters who agreed with me on that.
I think Howard gave up a soft/1,5 soft goal each game.

I think Babcock will go with Howard, but I think I would strongly consider going with Osgood.

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04-19-2010, 08:45 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
So... 'blame'? I don't know if I 'blame' Babcock for what he did. It's not like both Howard and Osgood didn't provide ample reasons for things to play out the way they did. I just would have liked to see Babcock at least keep the door cracked open for Osgood a little bit as opposed to slammed shut, locked, nailed, chained, buried, launched into space, and then blown up with a missle.
If Osgood had 2 more starts and lost them we might be in eight place playing the Sharks or the Blackhawks. Maybe that would have been better for us. Maybe it would have been worse. We don't know the answer to that because when there is this much parity the butterfly effect you get from one game changes everything. The point isn't that you are wrong. It's that you aren't right. You are trying to tell Babcock that your way would have been better. If you can prove that beyond a doubt maybe you should be a professional coach. But since you can't, stop saying "I told you so" and instead respect the decision he had to make and hope it gets us a Cup.

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04-19-2010, 09:01 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Do you think if Ozzie were brought in for game 4, he'd win 3 games before allowing Phoenix to win 2?
ok, I guess it depends on whether or not the team gets the message in the switch or not.

You've quoted me on something I never said, WTF ?!

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04-19-2010, 09:03 AM
  #60
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If Osgood had 2 more starts and lost them we might be in eight place playing the Sharks or the Blackhawks.
Or if the two starts Osgood made were two of the ones Howard already lost there wouldn't have been any difference at all. Or maybe Osgood wins both, or one, or loses both in OT and the team gets two points, or....

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The point isn't that you are wrong. It's that you aren't right. You are trying to tell Babcock that your way would have been better. If you can prove that beyond a doubt maybe you should be a professional coach.
I'm merely pointing out that concerns I had about a decision that was made a couple months ago are beginning to bear fruit. I don't like that they are, I wish they wouldn't, but c'est la vie.

As far as not knowing about what would have happened... well, duh. Obviously. People are talking about how bringing Hudler back would make the team better, or worse, or whatever... and they have no idea how that will work out, either. We have opinions on things with very limited information, and go from there.

If your point is that we can only discuss things that actually happened as opposed to things that may have happened were things done differently or that may happen in the future based on what is decided... you really don't have too much to talk about.

Quote:
But since you can't, stop saying "I told you so" and instead respect the decision he had to make and hope it gets us a Cup.
Excellent. I'll keep this in mind in case you ever decide to criticize one of Babcock's decisions, or one of the decisions of a player, at any point, ever.

Hey, respect the decision, right? Even if it turns out it may have been a mistake or the possibility exists that it could have been done better! Just cheer mindlessly for the team and don't analyze anything!

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04-19-2010, 09:07 AM
  #61
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Coach Mike Babcock said he is not considering a goalie change.

"Never thought about it at all,'' Babcock said.
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Only a fool would consider going with Osgood. Babcock is no fool.

/thread

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04-19-2010, 09:08 AM
  #62
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Experience is everything, unless you don't have it? My advice to Jimmah is to mellow out, man.

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04-19-2010, 09:13 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Look, this is all on Howard. People can spin the pedals on the excuse bike for him as much as they want, but at some point it's incumbent on the goalie to play well, not be carried along by the rest of the team.

And, really, it's not like Osgood's anything but a longshot to be an improvement... but Howard's been mediocre to poor for all three games so far, with game 3 being his worst effort of the series.

Again, I think Babcock has welded himself to Howard. I think he made this decision a while ago and now he and we are both stuck with it. I hope it works out and Howard starts playing well.

However, I think if Howard continues to flail and be ineffective and Detroit goes out in 5 or 6 without ever getting Osgood in while the series is winnable, it's going to be almost impossible to not point out Babcock's decisions with the goaltending as a huge, huge question mark this playoff year, considering Osgood's elite level of play the past two.
Yeah, when the team in front of him is playing absolutely no defense whatsoever, it's all on the goalie.

He can't stop two dozen breakaways, 2 on 1s, and wide open uncovered passes to wide open forwards at the top of the crease. What a bum.

Let's play the 200 year old that hasn't stopped a puck in 11 months. I'm sure he doesn't need the team in front of him to play defense. And score 5 goals a game himself to boot, since the offense has been stagnant outside of the 2nd half of game 2.

Ozzie will really help the Wings' transition game too. He can get them through the neutral zone with speed. He can go in hard on the forecheck and win puck battles on dump-ins. He can play both defense positions while also playing goal, and can get in front of a winger that's driving to the net with the puck, rather than diving out of the way and yelling "OLE!!!" the way Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Kronwall have done all series. He can stop Bert from repeatedly drop-passing the puck to a Yote forward and handing them an odd-man rush.

Do you listen to yourself? Seriously. Get help. I know you don't watch the games and base your complaints on the box scores and ESPN highlights (it's the only possible explanation for what you're suggesting), but please. Enough of this. If Howard is getting torched, Ozzie would be a big barrel of napalm on the problem. Fix the skaters and the problems take care of themselves. And if the skaters can't fix themselves, then no goalie who ever lived is going to be able to save them this year and they should let Howard get his playoff experience and get ready for next year.

Howard is your favorite whipping boy. Everyone knows that. Osgood is worthless. Everyone knows that. This thread is ridiculous. Everyone (including HAWKS FANS) knows that.

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04-19-2010, 09:17 AM
  #64
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Much as though something must be done, I don't think it's the right time to put in Osgood. Maybe if, like others have said, we're multiple goals down early on, but otherwise, I'd say stick with Howard.

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04-19-2010, 09:19 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Marky9er View Post
ok, I guess it depends on whether or not the team gets the message in the switch or not.

You've quoted me on something I never said, WTF ?!
Yeah, no idea how that happened, that was supposed to be a HiHD quote. The boards were acting fluky for a few minutes last night, I'm guessing that had something to do with it Sorry.

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04-19-2010, 09:20 AM
  #66
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Do you think if Ozzie were brought in for game 4, he'd win 3 games before allowing Phoenix to win 2?
Assuming you're talking to me, here's my thought process:

1) Howard may be a mess. He is playing the biggest games of his life and he's gotten weaker as the series has gone on. His game 3 effort was really poor, and 3 of the 4 goals against (if not all 4) were ones he played badly. It is entirely possible the 'moment' may be too much for him. Maybe next year he'll be better prepared, maybe not, who knows. All I can say is that based on the first three playoff games he's had, he's not even close to getting it done.

2) Speaking of, Osgood may be done. I don't know, I don't see practices, and I don't think one start in three months gives me much of a window to look through. Maybe he's a sieve and the guys lay off on him during practices and Babcock knows Ozzie's got nothing left. Entirely possible. If that's the case then the Wings are screwed and none of this matters.

3) That said, Chris Osgood went from zero to hero in 2009, and came in to completely bail out the Wings in the first round in 2008, and has been elite for two straight postseasons while Howard can't get out of his own way through three games. If the 2010 Red Wings go down in flames in Round 1 and Howard doesn't play any better, leaving Osgood on the bench with his sub 2 playoff GAA and .930+ save percentage while gathering the troops to make a stand and die around the flag on Jimmy Howard the Rookie Hill is going to be looked at as a big, big mistake.

4) If you start Howard in game 4 and the team loses, down 3-1 it almost becomes pointless. It would be immensely unfair to Osgood to throw him in there in a situation like that, where the chances of eventual success are almost 0, even if he does come in and play solidly. Hell, even if he comes in and immediately goes 2008 on the 'Yotes I doubt the Wings could win three straight.

Just like every decision should, it comes down to what Babcock sees, and what he thinks... not what I see or think. He's done a fantastic job in Detroit since he got here, and I'm not going to get all lathered up just because he doesn't do every single thing the way I would like. He's going to be right instead of me most of the time our opinions diverge, anyway.

I just wish he would have made it a little easier on himself to make a change if a change became necessary. Maybe that was part of the reason he didn't... he wanted Howard to know beyond all doubt he was the guy 100%. Stranger things have happened.

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04-19-2010, 09:30 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Yeah, when the team in front of him is playing absolutely no defense whatsoever, it's all on the goalie.
Howard's play is on Howard.

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He can't stop two dozen breakaways, 2 on 1s, and wide open uncovered passes to wide open forwards at the top of the crease. What a bum.
Like I said, there are plenty of people here ready and willing to make tons of excuses for Howard. Add 1 more to that list, I guess.

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Do you listen to yourself?
Yes, but you obviously don't.

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Howard is your favorite whipping boy. Everyone knows that.
The thing is, when this overwhelming tide of Howard coddling passes I wonder how vicious people will get with him. That's too bad, because I think people like you have gotten way too far out in front of Howard, and now you're making these bizarre excuses for him playing poorly, and you and others are lashing out wildly at the mere suggestion of even considering other options.

I mean, I point out Howard's a rookie and that his play in the regular season, while impressive, isn't particularly relevant to the playoffs and he's a 'whipping boy' for me? Goodness. I suggest that maybe it would have been helpful to get Osgood a couple more starts late to at least provide a more viable option in net and I'm a 'fool' according to a luminary like DJ?

This has certainly been an interesting and entertaining season. The threads from this year are going to be awesome Time Capsule reading, considering how goalies in Detroit are almost always eventually treated by fans here.

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04-19-2010, 09:38 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
Yeah, no idea how that happened, that was supposed to be a HiHD quote. The boards were acting fluky for a few minutes last night, I'm guessing that had something to do with it Sorry.
K, np. I was just confused since I never thought that. Of course ozzy would be an improvent, he has nerves of steel. Jimmy has been the biggest momentum sapper you could imagine, not horrible but the pressure has gotten to him…you can almost see his knees shaking. If ozzy is in any condition at all, he is an improvement…seasoned vet. Hopefully he can teach Jimmy some of his cool!

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04-19-2010, 09:38 AM
  #69
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The way I see it, this team is built to have a cheap goalie. With a cheap goalie you're going to be gambling on him being in good shape during the playoffs, cheap goalies are either inexperienced or proven to be inconsistent ergo it's definitely a gamble either way. Howard fits the inexperienced mold, Osgood the proven to be less than ideal mold.

This team build is also based on the assumption that a great D in which you put a lot of cap space can bail out average goaltenders and it's probably true. Trouble is our top D-men aren't playing very well at the moment, so it's not working as it should right now. Again, a goalie change makes no difference to that.

When I look at Howard I look at next season and beyond, the question isn't whether he should stay in net for this series, the question is whether you want to build around Howard.

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04-19-2010, 09:43 AM
  #70
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Alright I'll start by saying Howard should start the next game for sure. Many thing he has been doing in these 3 games he has been doing all year, but now they are glaring issues.

Now everyone is saying unless he takes a dump in game 4. Folks if he takes a dump in game 4 it's over for the DRW this year. Some how they need to win 2 games in a row to win this series, but they'll NEVER win 3 in a row.

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04-19-2010, 09:48 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
1) Howard may be a mess. He is playing the biggest games of his life and he's gotten weaker as the series has gone on. His game 3 effort was really poor, and 3 of the 4 goals against (if not all 4) were ones he played badly. It is entirely possible the 'moment' may be too much for him. Maybe next year he'll be better prepared, maybe not, who knows. All I can say is that based on the first three playoff games he's had, he's not even close to getting it done.
How do we know how close he is to getting it done? Is it inconceivable that he would come in and have a good game 4? Imo, through 3 games, the skaters are about 2/3 at fault and Howard about 1/3. You can't hang a rookie goaltender out to dry in his first playoff series and expect results. The team needs to play better in front of him; namely Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Kronwall. I think if they can take care of their play, Howard's improvement will follow.


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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
2) Speaking of, Osgood may be done. I don't know, I don't see practices, and I don't think one start in three months gives me much of a window to look through. Maybe he's a sieve and the guys lay off on him during practices and Babcock knows Ozzie's got nothing left. Entirely possible. If that's the case then the Wings are screwed and none of this matters.
So you're assuming Howard will inevitably go down in flames if he keeps playing? No hope for improvement? I think there's still a chance (a good chance) the whole team steps it up and everyone plays better, including Howard. I don't think the Wings' chances wholly depend on Osgood having something left. I have some faith in this team with Howard between the pipes.


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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
3) That said, Chris Osgood went from zero to hero in 2009, and came in to completely bail out the Wings in the first round in 2008, and has been elite for two straight postseasons while Howard can't get out of his own way through three games. If the 2010 Red Wings go down in flames in Round 1 and Howard doesn't play any better, leaving Osgood on the bench with his sub 2 playoff GAA and .930+ save percentage while gathering the troops to make a stand and die around the flag on Jimmy Howard the Rookie Hill is going to be looked at as a big, big mistake.
Not necessarily. If Howard plays well for the rest of the series, and the Wings still lose (in presumably low-scoring affairs), I don't see where there would have been a mistake made, goaltender-wise. There's many ways this can all play out, but if Howard continues to struggle, I imagine Osgood will get in there at some point, unless he really is completely toast and none of us know it. But now is not the time. Howard needs to start the next game.


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4) If you start Howard in game 4 and the team loses, down 3-1 it almost becomes pointless. It would be immensely unfair to Osgood to throw him in there in a situation like that, where the chances of eventual success are almost 0, even if he does come in and play solidly. Hell, even if he comes in and immediately goes 2008 on the 'Yotes I doubt the Wings could win three straight.
If Howard is having a bad game 4 and the Wings go down by a couple goals, I bet we'd see Osgood come in (unless, again, Osgood is toast and we don't know it). And I don't think that would be unfair to Osgood. If Howard has a good game 4, and the Wings still lose (say, 1-0 or 2-1), then you ride Howard out and Osgood is a moot point.

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Old
04-19-2010, 09:51 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
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Only a fool would consider going with Osgood. Babcock is no fool.

/thread
Babcock is a great coach, but he is stubborn. He lost 4 of 5 to the Pens last year cause he was stubborn.

Howard says:
Quote:
"I would say (I) allowed three untimely goals -- first minute (of the game), last minute of the second period and then that fourth one when we sort of had the momentum in the third period," Howard said. "I just have to refocus and get out there and have a good practice (Monday). Forget about it and improve my performance (Tuesday in Game 4)."
That is 3 goals.

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Old
04-19-2010, 10:07 AM
  #73
doublejack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 14ari13 View Post
Babcock is a great coach, but he is stubborn. He lost 4 of 5 to the Pens last year cause he was stubborn.

Howard says:


That is 3 goals.
Howard admitted to allowing 3 UNTIMELY goals. He's 100% correct. Goals in the first or last minute of a period are tough to swallow, and the fourth goal came just seconds after Detroit showed some life and narrowed the margin to 1.

However, in his statement Howard doesn't claim responsibility for all three... nor should he. If the team were playing better in front of him then the Coyotes wouldn't be getting such good chances in those situations. Of the four goals in game three, only the last one was a "bad" goal.

I don't know what fantasy world people are living in who believe or think Osgood would be doing better. Whatever bizarro land that is, I just know that Babcock isn't a resident.

The important thing is Howard's reaction in game four. Is he going to step it up like a big time goalie, or is he a Legace? Is he something in between? We'll find out tomorrow, and Osgood can continue to help the team best by charting faceoffs.

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Old
04-19-2010, 10:41 AM
  #74
TheOtherOne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Excellent. I'll keep this in mind in case you ever decide to criticize one of Babcock's decisions, or one of the decisions of a player, at any point, ever.

Hey, respect the decision, right? Even if it turns out it may have been a mistake or the possibility exists that it could have been done better! Just cheer mindlessly for the team and don't analyze anything!
You can analyze and criticize all you want. The problem I have with you is the attitude that says "look, Howard is failing, that clearly means I was right all along." There is little to no evidence that any alternative decision would have left us in a better place. Looking at the last few weeks, and looking at our current defensive work, and looking at Ozzy's last starts and more importantly to me, his attitude (http:// bleacherreport. com/articles/318486-chris-osgood-not-happy-with-new-role-on-team), it looks like this is the best position we could be in. It may not be a Cup winning position, but I don't have any faith that an alternative choice would have left us better off.

If we switch to Ozzy next game, he sucks or he is decent or he is amazing through the rest of the playoffs. I think him being amazing is VERY unlikely so I'm discounting that. Being decent with the defense as bad as it, even if it wins us the series, probably won't be good enough for a Cup, especially if we play more tentative in front of him. As a bonus it probably kills Jimmy's confidence.

If we roll with Jimmy to the end, either he gets it back and steals games, or he continues to play decent and then our defense wins or loses it for us. If we are going to lose anyway I'd rather have it be because of poor defending and give Jimmy some experience for next year. If Jimmy starts sucking even more, he was going to suck anyway, and we were going to lose anyway, so there's no use crying about it.

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Old
04-19-2010, 10:50 AM
  #75
FissionFire
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HiHD overreacting after two decent games and one bad game by Howard, as if the reason we've lost these games has more to do with the goalie than the abysmal play by the defense and the overall team in front of him. Ahh the irony of the poster who loves to mock everyone for overreacting doing just that lol.

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