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Howard or Osgood in Game 4.

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Old
04-19-2010, 12:02 PM
  #76
Johnny Law
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Yeah, when the team in front of him is playing absolutely no defense whatsoever, it's all on the goalie.

He can't stop two dozen breakaways, 2 on 1s, and wide open uncovered passes to wide open forwards at the top of the crease. What a bum.

Let's play the 200 year old that hasn't stopped a puck in 11 months. I'm sure he doesn't need the team in front of him to play defense. And score 5 goals a game himself to boot, since the offense has been stagnant outside of the 2nd half of game 2.

Ozzie will really help the Wings' transition game too. He can get them through the neutral zone with speed. He can go in hard on the forecheck and win puck battles on dump-ins. He can play both defense positions while also playing goal, and can get in front of a winger that's driving to the net with the puck, rather than diving out of the way and yelling "OLE!!!" the way Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Kronwall have done all series. He can stop Bert from repeatedly drop-passing the puck to a Yote forward and handing them an odd-man rush.

Do you listen to yourself? Seriously. Get help. I know you don't watch the games and base your complaints on the box scores and ESPN highlights (it's the only possible explanation for what you're suggesting), but please. Enough of this. If Howard is getting torched, Ozzie would be a big barrel of napalm on the problem. Fix the skaters and the problems take care of themselves. And if the skaters can't fix themselves, then no goalie who ever lived is going to be able to save them this year and they should let Howard get his playoff experience and get ready for next year.

Howard is your favorite whipping boy. Everyone knows that. Osgood is worthless. Everyone knows that. This thread is ridiculous. Everyone (including HAWKS FANS) knows that.
Bravo!

The reason the Wings are down 2-1 is because outside of two periods they have played like a tired uninterested team who would rather be fishing than playing hockey. Howard will be fine when and if the rest of the team turns it around.

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04-19-2010, 01:48 PM
  #77
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Just to chime in on posts saying Wings have no chance if down 3-1.

In my opinion, Game 5 would be the ticket.

I'd be very nervous for the Wings down 3-1 going to Phoenix.

But if they did pull out Game 5 like that I would expect them to win Game 6 at home and force a 7th Game they'd be entirely within reason to win.

Just a bit unfair to say a loss in Game 4 means it's forgone conclusion of defeat.

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04-19-2010, 01:54 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Howard's play is on Howard.
Right, and apparently so is everyone else's play. It's Howard's fault that Nick played the spot he was standing on instead of playing the shooter, the pass, or the pass recipient on a 2 on 1 goal. It's Howard's fault that the Wings are giving up 10 breakaways a game and he's not stopping every single one of them.

The goalie is only as good as the defense in front of him, and I want to see him play a game with 60 minutes of functional (not necessarily outstanding or stifling, but FUNCTIONAL) defense before I wet myself and start calling for Ozzie the way you have.

If they don't play defense the goalie doesn't matter.

If they don't score the goalie doesn't matter.

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I mean, I point out Howard's a rookie and that his play in the regular season, while impressive, isn't particularly relevant to the playoffs and he's a 'whipping boy' for me? Goodness. I suggest that maybe it would have been helpful to get Osgood a couple more starts late to at least provide a more viable option in net and I'm a 'fool' according to a luminary like DJ?
Osgood did nothing all season to warrant another start down the stretch. Babcock gave him chances, and every time he did Ozzie showed he couldn't be trusted. There is no reason to think that the Ozzie of the 08 and 09 playoffs will ever be seen again.

For all your talk about Howard's play being Howard's fault, you sure don't ever hold Ozzie to that standard. You've been more than happy making excuses for Ozzie's rock-bottom play all season. "He's rusty" "Give him starts to get into game shape" "He's saving it for the playoffs" etc etc etc.

Ozzie is a train wreck this season and he can't be trusted unless there is absolutely no alternative. No number of starts down the stretch was going to help him, and he has always been just fine when coming in cold in the past.

And again, he would not be doing any better behind the defense Howard has had to work with. You've got to weigh Howard's performance this season (excellent) and excuse for not playing well this series (Thrasheresque defense) against Ozzie's performance this season (worse than terrible) and excuse for not playing well this season ("rust").

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Old
04-19-2010, 02:21 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Right, and apparently so is everyone else's play.


Look, I understand there is a huge rush to immediately lash out at me when I criticize Howard. I really do get it. He's a guy lots of people here like to root for, even if the rooting is taken a bit too far and it sort of flows over into gushing.

But, okay. That is what it is.

However, in the interest of at least a quick genuflection in the direction of honesty in case you aren't planning on making one, I think it's important to note I'm not blaming everything on Howard. He, personally, has played poorly. Has the team bailed him out? Nope. Should the team need to bail him out all the time? Depends. If the people who have been going on and on about Howard this year are going to be consistent, then not so much. If Howard is the goalie they thought he was, then I don't exactly think it's consistent to complain that the team isn't bailing him out when Howard's giving up terrible rebounds and softies.

If people think Howard is Osgood 2.0, then sure. It's much more reasonable to get annoyed with the team for not putting him in more of a bubble.

In either case, it is actually still possible for a goalie to play badly independent of the team in front of him playing badly. More than one thing can happen simultaneously.

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The goalie is only as good as the defense in front of him,
Perfect example of someone making excuses for Howard. No, a goalie is not only as good as the defense in front of him. And yes, a goalie playing badly can rattle a defense, just like a defense playing badly can rattle and expose a goalie.

Whether people like it or not, Howard hasn't played well this series so far. Blaming the defense for his poor rebounds and positioning just isn't accurate.

Could the defense be better? Absolutely. Could Howard be better? Absolutely. Excusing the latter because of the former is the textbook definition of handing out a pass. I tend to forget, were you running around making excuses for Osgood earlier this year when he was struggling, saying that the team in front of him wasn't picking him up when they were only scoring 1 or 2 goals a game for him?

No? Really? Hmm. Curious.

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and I want to see him play a game with 60 minutes of functional (not necessarily outstanding or stifling, but FUNCTIONAL) defense before I wet myself and start calling for Ozzie the way you have.


Fortunately you haven't resorted to hyperbole yet. I think this is just your usual strain of misinformation.

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For all your talk about Howard's play being Howard's fault, you sure don't ever hold Ozzie to that standard.


Oh dear. Now you're launching into full-out fiction.

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And again, he would not be doing any better behind the defense Howard has had to work with.
That's certainly one possibility.

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You've got to weigh Howard's performance this season (excellent) and excuse for not playing well this series (Thrasheresque defense)
That's pretty much what it is.

I have to say, it's incredibly interesting watching people line up to make excuses for Howard playing poorly. What is this, a global warming discussion? Is it impossible for you guys to admit Howard's played poorly without having to lash out, blame everyone else on the defense first, and just generally all get together and knit him a blankie?



Goodness. Hey, goalies have played poorly in the playoffs before. Osgood has, Roy has, Brodeur has, etc. The overreaction to having Howard's mediocrity so far this series pointed out is amusing, to say the least.

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Old
04-19-2010, 02:32 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by TheOtherOne View Post
You can analyze and criticize all you want. The problem I have with you is the attitude that says "look, Howard is failing, that clearly means I was right all along."
Ah. Well, there's your problem. I'm not saying that, I'm saying that I was concerned that mothballing Osgood so early would make it effectively impossible to reasonably re-insert Osgood in the playoffs if Howard, a rookie goaltender, struggled in the playoffs as rookie goaltenders do on occasion.

Essentially, I wasn't anticipating or 'hoping' Howard was going to struggle, I was hoping that Babcock would allow himself some room in case that happened.

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There is little to no evidence that any alternative decision would have left us in a better place.
True. Then again, there's little to no evidence any alternative decision would have left us in a worse place, either. In the worst case Ozzie would get a couple more starts, suck outrageously, and the Wings finished 6th or 7th instead of 5th and they still couldn't rely on him. In the best case, Osgood would come in, play well, and be a viable replacement with less rust.

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If we roll with Jimmy to the end, either he gets it back and steals games, or he continues to play decent
You've already lost me. I don't think Howard's been 'decent'. I think he has been mediocre to poor in the first three. Game 3 was his worst effort of the series.

I mean, if you're going to make the case that Howard's level of play so far has been acceptable... well, we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I think he's pretty much Legace'd the first three games.

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If we are going to lose anyway I'd rather have it be because of poor defending and give Jimmy some experience for next year. If Jimmy starts sucking even more, he was going to suck anyway, and we were going to lose anyway, so there's no use crying about it.
Personally, I'd like to see the team do everything it can to win rather than being so fatalistic about it. If Babcock thinks that means leaving Osgood on the bench, well, c'est la vie I guess. If Jimmy Howard continues to play poorly it's certainly something that will merit revisiting in the offseason.

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04-19-2010, 02:37 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by FissionFire View Post
HiHD overreacting after two decent games and one bad game by Howard, as if the reason we've lost these games has more to do with the goalie than the abysmal play by the defense and the overall team in front of him. Ahh the irony of the poster who loves to mock everyone for overreacting doing just that lol.


I don't think it's overreacting to consider changing the goaltender when the Wings goaltending has been weak in the series. It's impossible to change out the defensive roster, so they have to play better. It's not impossible to change out the goalie.

Well, it kind of is since Osgood's only started one game in 3 months, but that's sort of the reason I was concerned about creating exactly this situation 3 months ago.

An overreaction would be saying Howard sucks, trade him, etc. I just think he's having the typical rookie growing pains in the playoffs and isn't adjusting particularly quickly to the different level of competition. I don't think he's in full on Steve Mason mode yet, but that's something we'll see moving forward.

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04-19-2010, 02:43 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
I have to say, it's incredibly interesting watching people line up to make excuses for Howard playing poorly. What is this, a global warming discussion? Is it impossible for you guys to admit Howard's played poorly without having to lash out, blame everyone else on the defense first, and just generally all get together and knit him a blankie?
Skipping the rest of your post because it didn't address any of my points.

The defense is the problem. The goalie doesn't matter if the defense doesn't play better. And Howard will play a lot better if the defense plays better.

You could put three goalies in the net and this team would still find a way to get scored on with the defense they're playing.

I don't know why you insist on absolving Lidstrom and co. and insist on placing everything on the rookie goalie that carried them to the playoffs, and frankly I don't care. You have stopped countering points with points and you've begun countering with snark and smilies.

That means you've lost.

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Old
04-19-2010, 02:45 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Skipping the rest of your post because it didn't address any of my points.

The defense is the problem. The goalie doesn't matter if the defense doesn't play better. And Howard will play a lot better if the defense plays better.

You could put three goalies in the net and this team would still find a way to get scored on with the defense they're playing.

I don't know why you insist on absolving Lidstrom and co. and insist on placing everything on the rookie goalie that carried them to the playoffs, and frankly I don't care. You have stopped countering points with points and you've begun countering with snark and smilies.

That means you've lost.
The defense is A problem. The offense is another problem. The goaltending is another problem. The coaching is another problem.

Every facet of the Wings is having problems. Blaming Howard for HIS play doesn't give a pass to the rest of the team. Arguing against those who insist Howard is losing it by blaming the defense is giving him a pass.

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Old
04-19-2010, 02:47 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
How do we know how close he is to getting it done? Is it inconceivable that he would come in and have a good game 4? Imo, through 3 games, the skaters are about 2/3 at fault and Howard about 1/3. You can't hang a rookie goaltender out to dry in his first playoff series and expect results.
Again, if we're saying Howard is a mediocre goalie who needs to be protected, then great. I agree, the team isn't protecting him well enough to be successful.

I just don't think people have been representing Howard as a mediocre goalie for the past five months is all.

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So you're assuming Howard will inevitably go down in flames if he keeps playing? No hope for improvement? I think there's still a chance (a good chance) the whole team steps it up and everyone plays better, including Howard. I don't think the Wings' chances wholly depend on Osgood having something left. I have some faith in this team with Howard between the pipes.
Yeah, I wasn't terribly clear there. I didn't mean 'screwed' as in assuming the team was going to suck, I meant 'screwed' as in not having a choice anyway, so what happened months ago couldn't have made a difference.

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Not necessarily. If Howard plays well for the rest of the series, and the Wings still lose (in presumably low-scoring affairs), I don't see where there would have been a mistake made, goaltender-wise. There's many ways this can all play out, but if Howard continues to struggle, I imagine Osgood will get in there at some point, unless he really is completely toast and none of us know it. But now is not the time. Howard needs to start the next game.
Well, like I said, if Howard plays the rest of the series and is still giving up 3 and 4 goals a night, along with two or three shaky efforts, having Osgood sitting on the bench can (and should) be a 'what if?' that's chewed on for the whole offseason.

If Howard elevates his game and plays better, obviously that will limit the amount of second-guessing that needs to take place.

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If Howard is having a bad game 4 and the Wings go down by a couple goals, I bet we'd see Osgood come in (unless, again, Osgood is toast and we don't know it). And I don't think that would be unfair to Osgood. If Howard has a good game 4, and the Wings still lose (say, 1-0 or 2-1), then you ride Howard out and Osgood is a moot point.
I don't know. I think Babcock is a great coach, but he does have a tendency to grab the wheel of his ship and hold course, and if he gets sunk by an iceberg then his ship just wasn't tough enough to take a hit from an iceberg. There's something to be said for not panicking in the face of failure, but a course correction here or there sometimes isn't admitting weakness.

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Old
04-19-2010, 02:51 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Skipping the rest of your post because it didn't address any of my points.

The defense is the problem. The goalie doesn't matter if the defense doesn't play better. And Howard will play a lot better if the defense plays better.

You could put three goalies in the net and this team would still find a way to get scored on with the defense they're playing.
...and you're still making excuses for Howard.

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I don't know why you insist on absolving Lidstrom and co. and insist on placing everything on the rookie goalie that carried them to the playoffs,


The thing is, I haven't done that, not even one single time. In your rush to lash out at criticism about Howard you just can't seem to recognize that I agree the team in front of him isn't playing well. I agree there are mistakes being made which place Howard at a disadvantage.

You appear to be the one who seems dead-set on providing total absolution for Howard.

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and frankly I don't care. You have stopped countering points with points and you've begun countering with snark and smilies.
When you resort to completely fabricating things, Sarcastro, there's no real point in responding to you with anything else.

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04-19-2010, 02:52 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
The defense is A problem. The offense is another problem. The goaltending is another problem. The coaching is another problem.

Every facet of the Wings is having problems. Blaming Howard for HIS play doesn't give a pass to the rest of the team. Arguing against those who insist Howard is losing it by blaming the defense is giving him a pass.
Do we blame the offense if the team loses 7-6, or the defense if the team loses 1-0? Or do we address the cause of the problems?

Again, I want to see them play at least average defense in front of Howard for 60 minutes. If he still lets in a bunch of goals, then we can talk about him being a problem. It doesn't matter how polished the brass is if there's a giant hole in the boat. Fix the hole, then worry about polishing the brass.

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04-19-2010, 02:57 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Do we blame the offense if the team loses 7-6, or the defense if the team loses 1-0? Or do we address the cause of the problems?
We blame whoever isn't doing what they should be doing. Nobody has been doing that.

Offense was sub-par. Bryzgalov made one great save against Datsyuk in the second late in the game. That was it. Franzen was invisible, and Zetterberg was one of the only guys doing something good out there.

The defense was atrocious. Lidstrom took a page right out of Mike Green's "how I play terrible defense" book the whole game. It was just awful.

Last change didn't help the Wings at all. Babcock didn't adjust as well as I think he should have.

Howard did not make the saves when it mattered. Less than a minute into the first, less than a minute left in the second, and a little over a minute after Franzen's goal to kill all the momentum going into the Wings' favor.

Is that a fair assessment?

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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
Again, I want to see them play at least average defense in front of Howard for 60 minutes. If he still lets in a bunch of goals, then we can talk about him being a problem. It doesn't matter how polished the brass is if there's a giant hole in the boat. Fix the hole, then worry about polishing the brass.
I wouldn't consider the goal-tending something as trivial as the brass on the boat. It is the most important position in the game.

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04-19-2010, 02:59 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by doublejack View Post
Of the four goals in game three, only the last one was a "bad" goal.
That's just completely, irrevocably wrong.

The first goal wasn't terrible. Yes, Howard just kicked the puck all over the place and kept it alive... but I'm not going to kill him for that one. He didn't have any high-probability chances to freeze it.

The second goal was vintage Howard. Weak wrister from the wing kicked right in front of him and popped back in the net. Howard has to swallow up that wrist shot. There's no reason to give up a rebound there, and most freaking certainly not three feet dead in front of his net as a Coyote comes in. If he has to burp up the puck there, get it against the boards, into the corner, anything but what he did.

The third goal was played badly by Howard. Way, way too passive. The defensemen screwed him on it, absolutely, but Howard's effort was just about as weak.

The fourth goal, which was an absolute killer, was terribly soft. Short-side wrister from from 20 feet? Good night.

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04-19-2010, 03:15 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
We blame whoever isn't doing what they should be doing. Nobody has been doing that.

Offense was sub-par. Bryzgalov made one great save against Datsyuk in the second late in the game. That was it. Franzen was invisible, and Zetterberg was one of the only guys doing something good out there.

The defense was atrocious. Lidstrom took a page right out of Mike Green's "how I play terrible defense" book the whole game. It was just awful.

Last change didn't help the Wings at all. Babcock didn't adjust as well as I think he should have.

Howard did not make the saves when it mattered. Less than a minute into the first, less than a minute left in the second, and a little over a minute after Franzen's goal to kill all the momentum going into the Wings' favor.

Is that a fair assessment?
Mostly fair, but again I see a team not playing defense when it matters before I see a goalie not making saves when it matters. Every time the Wings have scored in this series, the skaters have taken the next couple of shifts off to celebrate. Howard hasn't shut the door, but it's really hard to shut the door when people keep leaving it wide open and the wind is blowing in.

Howard played so well all year with less-than-stellar defense, and now the defense has ... I'm running out of adjectives to describe how bad they have been. I have to believe that if they give him any kind of defensive support at all, we'll see the Howard we saw all year.

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I wouldn't consider the goal-tending something as trivial as the brass on the boat. It is the most important position in the game.
And yet it hasn't been the deciding factor in either of the Wings' last 2 finals runs.

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04-19-2010, 03:53 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
I don't know. I think Babcock is a great coach, but he does have a tendency to grab the wheel of his ship and hold course, and if he gets sunk by an iceberg then his ship just wasn't tough enough to take a hit from an iceberg. There's something to be said for not panicking in the face of failure, but a course correction here or there sometimes isn't admitting weakness.
This is the perfect quote for showcasing why your reasoning is flawed. You might even be right, maybe a miracle would have occurred and Ozzy would be carrying us every game had a different choice been made 3 weeks ago. But you make it sound like it's black or white, win or lose. There was a decision to be made: 100% Jimmy, or 90% Jimmy 10% Oz. We went with 100% Jimmy. And as soon as it starts looking like the wrong choice, you assume the other choice would have been right.

You are blaming Babcock for steering right into that iceberg while you wear blinders to block out the other icebergs on either side.

We DO need Jimmy to be better. We also need our defense to be better. We need our stars to produce more and our grinders to get on the scoresheet as well. Maybe we need line changes. You say it's impossible to change our defense, but at this point it makes as much sense to swap a D out for Meech as it would to swap Jimmy for Oz.

If we lose, there will be a lot of things that will have contributed to it. Nobody is blindly worshipping Jimmy when they suggest that the goaltending decision is not one of those things. It just means that in that case there was no right decision, and the rest of our team couldn't make up for it. You don't get around an iceberg by steering into another one.

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04-19-2010, 04:00 PM
  #91
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Goalie threads suck. These Howard vs Osgood threads really suck the life out of the forums. It's exhausting talking about what one goalie could do over the other goalie.

Maybe this will put this thread to rest -- Babcock said:

Quote:
Red Wings goaltender Jimmy Howard says he needs to have short-term memory after giving up four goals in two straight games to the Phoenix Coyotes.

Detroit coach Mike Babcock said Monday he’s confident the rookie will bounce back.
LINK: http://www.evenstrength.com/2010/04/...-short-memory/

Babcock believes Howard "will bounce back". Therefore, he will play tomorrow.

This thread sucks.

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04-19-2010, 05:46 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Again, if we're saying Howard is a mediocre goalie who needs to be protected, then great. I agree, the team isn't protecting him well enough to be successful.

I just don't think people have been representing Howard as a mediocre goalie for the past five months is all.
Define "mediocre goalie." I don't know if he's a mediocre goalie. I do know that he is a rookie who had an absolutely exceptional rookie season (which looked much better than what I would define as mediocre) and now is in the pressure cooker of his first playoff. And his team has hung him out to dry multiple times. That can shake a rookie's confidence and lead to soft goals, which he has given up. I disagree with the implication that it's only mediocre goalies who need to be "protected" by good defense. Nearly all goalies do, in order to win. My point was just that he may very well be close to "getting it done," but the poor defense in front of him has muddied the picture. He certainly needs to play better, but it's more critical for the defense in front of him to play better. They are the linchpin in this case.


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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Well, like I said, if Howard plays the rest of the series and is still giving up 3 and 4 goals a night, along with two or three shaky efforts, having Osgood sitting on the bench can (and should) be a 'what if?' that's chewed on for the whole offseason.

If Howard elevates his game and plays better, obviously that will limit the amount of second-guessing that needs to take place.
Well, I agree that the former scenario merits a "what if," but I don't see it playing out. I think there's a point at which Howard's play will result in a goaltending change. However, it's not yet there, so I'm not sure it's a worthwhile conversation at this point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
I don't know. I think Babcock is a great coach, but he does have a tendency to grab the wheel of his ship and hold course, and if he gets sunk by an iceberg then his ship just wasn't tough enough to take a hit from an iceberg. There's something to be said for not panicking in the face of failure, but a course correction here or there sometimes isn't admitting weakness.
But if a course correction isn't the best option, then not making one is the best decision.


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Originally Posted by TheOtherOne View Post
This is the perfect quote for showcasing why your reasoning is flawed. You might even be right, maybe a miracle would have occurred and Ozzy would be carrying us every game had a different choice been made 3 weeks ago. But you make it sound like it's black or white, win or lose. There was a decision to be made: 100% Jimmy, or 90% Jimmy 10% Oz. We went with 100% Jimmy. And as soon as it starts looking like the wrong choice, you assume the other choice would have been right.

You are blaming Babcock for steering right into that iceberg while you wear blinders to block out the other icebergs on either side.

We DO need Jimmy to be better. We also need our defense to be better. We need our stars to produce more and our grinders to get on the scoresheet as well. Maybe we need line changes. You say it's impossible to change our defense, but at this point it makes as much sense to swap a D out for Meech as it would to swap Jimmy for Oz.

If we lose, there will be a lot of things that will have contributed to it. Nobody is blindly worshipping Jimmy when they suggest that the goaltending decision is not one of those things. It just means that in that case there was no right decision, and the rest of our team couldn't make up for it. You don't get around an iceberg by steering into another one.
This is a good take, I largely agree.

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04-19-2010, 05:51 PM
  #93
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i would feel much more comfortable with osgood instead of howard.

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04-19-2010, 06:00 PM
  #94
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No, not really. I think Howard is getting tons of excuses made for him when he's played fairly poorly. As I mentioned, I expected this (the excuses I mean)... I'm just a bit surprised by the sheer breadth of the excuse-making that's going on. Howard played badly on at least three of the four goals he allowed today.
Not by me.

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And we've already seen Osgood go from regular season crap to post-season gold. He did it just last year when his last two starts of the regular season were mediocre, but as soon as the playoffs started his game elevated.
So we either have to hope Howard plays better or hope Osgood can came in ice cold and catch lightning in a bottle twice when he showed no signs of it during the season (don't forget last year when he came back from his vacation he showed signs of being playoff ready) Osgood's mind hasn't been right all season. Little quick timeline. We start the season, Osgood is terrible. Has a nice little stretch in November and has a legendary game against Nashville in December which is talked about the rest of the season. Then when Howard plays better than Osgood and we're fighting for the playoffs he starts whining. Later on when Osgood finally gets a start he whines about who gets to play against and basically gives up before the game even starts. Then someone probably has a talk with him and gets good reviews about practicing really hard but when he does play... he still isn't good.

Osgood is done, he played well in the playoffs last year behind the best team ever assembled in a post-cap era. He should've won the Conn Smythe. It ain't happening again.

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Do I think Chris Osgood is a sure thing to be an improvement over Howard right away? No, of course not. Honestly, I don't think there are any easy answers here, because Babcock made this decision three months ago and now Detroit is stuck with a rookie goalie who looks to be crumbling while a vet with a metric f-ton of playoff experience is mothballed.

I think that sucks. I see how we got here, I saw it two months ago, but I don't have to like being right.
Let's cut the crap, Osgood would've let in the same number of goals in game 3 with how the defense has played, maybe more. Expecting Chris Osgood to come in and steal a game is some kind of faith. Had we given Osgood the bulk of starts that he apparently needed to play any resemblance of NHL hockey we probably wouldn't be here.

So if we lose the series, we're going to see threads about 'omg how could babcock not play osgood!!!!!'. I mean, what happens if Osgood comes in and sucks? Not only did we play with a rookie goalies confidence we just threw a grenade into a crowded room.

I get your point, you think Osgood should've played more just incase what actually happened, happened. But besides his legendary Nashville game were you really 100% confident and just how confident are you now that Osgood can come in and go MVP again? I can't see it being better odds than Howard merely playing better.


Last edited by Heaton: 04-19-2010 at 06:13 PM.
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04-19-2010, 06:27 PM
  #95
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So if we lose the series, we're going to see threads about 'omg how could babcock not play osgood!!!!!'. I mean, what happens if Osgood comes in and sucks? Not only did we play with a rookie goalies confidence we just threw a grenade into a crowded room.
for as much as HD over-thinks things, he's really missing this. Howie had nothing short of an amazing season, with visions of franchise goalie dancing in Holland's head. now he's considering giving him the hook [in favor of the one of the worst goalies in the NHL this year] after 3 playoff games, where his team has played 2 good periods of a possible 9?
very short-sighted.

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04-19-2010, 06:30 PM
  #96
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for as much as HD over-thinks things, he's really missing this. Howie had nothing short of an amazing season, with visions of franchise goalie dancing in Holland's head. now we're considering giving him the hook after 3 playoff games, where his team has played 2 good periods of a possible 9?
very short-sighted.
This season was crucial to see if Howard can play in the NHL or not, had he been terrible and Osgood been like he was, we would've almost forced to get rid of Howard since Holland wouldn't get rid of Osgood.

Now in the playoffs, I think it's just as important to allow him to grow, win or lose.

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04-19-2010, 07:18 PM
  #97
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the correct answer in two words -

**** no

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04-19-2010, 07:20 PM
  #98
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i would feel much more comfortable with osgood instead of howard.


Osgood is done as an NHL caliber goalie...done

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04-19-2010, 07:30 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Doc Holliday View Post
Offense was sub-par. Bryzgalov made one great save against Datsyuk in the second late in the game. That was it. Franzen was invisible, and Zetterberg was one of the only guys doing something good out there.

Howard did not make the saves when it mattered. Less than a minute into the first, less than a minute left in the second, and a little over a minute after Franzen's goal to kill all the momentum going into the Wings' favor.

Is that a fair assessment?
Good god no its not.

How many saves did you want Howard to have before the players stopped watching and started helping his ass out on the first goal? You, in no way can blame him. Please elaborate if you want to because I am DYING to understand that one.

The second one, You could blame Howard but you could also blame Abdelkader too who let up on his man (Wolski) to follow the play and it popped right back to him.

Third goal, that was just a damn sexy goal that caught Rafalski making a stupid defensive play and Lidstrom reacting too slow.

Forth goal was Howard. Lidstrom and Kronwall both took the guy who made the drop pass, which let Vrbata skate it in. Honestly, watching the replay, I blame Ericsson on this one. What a dumbass for making the switch while the play was going that way; STAY WITH THE PLAY FOR ONCE.

Too many players played like ****. Pavel wasnt very good regardless of what anyone wants to explain, Hank was ****, Fils goal was weak and Franzen wasnt really dominant either. Everyone needs to grab the smelling salts and get their **** going.

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04-19-2010, 07:31 PM
  #100
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i would feel much more comfortable with osgood instead of howard.
Good, if Howard gets going again I dont want to see people like you hop back on the Bandwagon. Its annoying.

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