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Peter Holland vs Nazem Kadri

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Old
04-22-2010, 09:36 AM
  #26
Ryan Van Horne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madic View Post
I think it's fairly naive to be "amazed" that just because your opinion is new, it is going to be more popular or right than the old one. It's also unfair to assume everyone who responded who wasn't in agreement with your opinion refuses to "entertain new information". Yeah, there were (and will always be, on good old HF) some "NO IM NOT LISTENING LALA" responses, but not agreeing with you doesn't make one blinkered.
Go back and read what I wrote -- please.

I did not say that was amazed that my opinion was not "more popular or right than the old one."

I'm just amazed that people are so quick to dismiss opinions that differ from their own. Not considering alternate opinions is blinkered.

You don't have to agree with them, but realize in an area as subjective as scouting teenage hockey players, that there are going to be opinions that don't match yours. Being aware of them using them as learning opportunities -- and not dismissing them -- is the approach I recommend.

I'm taking in all these arguments and opinions about Kadri. I'm not dismissing a single one of them. They're all duly noted.

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04-22-2010, 09:49 AM
  #27
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let me first declare I am a leafs fan, born and raised..

.. that being said, this article does have some merit. However, is is poorly written and he first talks about super scouts, and then goes on to say his brother (with no last name) is a top flight scout and his word should be taken as gold. Maybe it should be, but I think many scouts would disagree with him as well. The point of the article is that Holland looks like he has a better chance of being in the NHL, and successful.. while Kadri might have higher potential, but a higher risk. Not telling us anything we don't know. The thing that will work well is Kadri's favor is something that the writer brings up: Kadri has heart... You can have all the skill in the world (daige) and if you don't have the heart or drive.. it wont do you any good. He puts in a 100% effort, is consistent and has the skills to be a very good NHLer... if he can bulk up, and add "jam" to his game. Well he added alot of "jam" to his game this year, and with his drive, playing in the NHL is a realistic goal. I think in 5-10 years... Kadri might have taken the Marc Savard route, but will make an impact for the leafs.. assuming they are willing to be patient with him.

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04-22-2010, 10:00 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scribe View Post

You don't have to agree with them, but realize in an area as subjective as scouting teenage hockey players, that there are going to be opinions that don't match yours.
Seriously? ****. I had no clue man.

Thank you. Your posts have been truly eye opening.

I think we've found the Prospect board's Mess.

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Old
04-22-2010, 10:03 AM
  #29
Ryan Van Horne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Curtis Belfour View Post
I see you are in Halifax. Do you regularly watch the OHL or just surf through hockey db. My guess is the later.

I would go on and explain the vast differences between the 05/06 Knights and this years team but I doubt it would do any good.
Curtis, I guess you didn't read the original article, which explains that the opinion expressed is that of my brother. I wrote it, but I'm sharing his opinion.

He's covered the OHL and the Knights for almost 30 years. When he compares a current Knight to a former Knight, he's drawing on a fair bit of knowledge. If he says Dave Bolland is a better finisher than Nazem Kadri, that's good enough for me. I just threw the numbers in there to compare.

As for the “vast differences” between the 05-06 edition of the Knights and this year's, what do you think they are?

They had identical win totals -- 49 -- and while the 2005-06 team scored more goals – 304 to 273 – it’s not that big a difference.

I know what my brother thinks, but I’d like to read your opinion.

I hope you're not thinking of the 2004-5 team that won the Memorial Cup with Corey Perry and Danny Syvret or the 2006-07 edition that had Pat Kane and Sam Gagner.

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04-22-2010, 10:10 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stanleyorbust View Post
let me first declare I am a leafs fan, born and raised..

.. that being said, this article does have some merit. However, is is poorly written and he first talks about super scouts, and then goes on to say his brother (with no last name) is a top flight scout and his word should be taken as gold. Maybe it should be, but I think many scouts would disagree with him as well. The point of the article is that Holland looks like he has a better chance of being in the NHL, and successful.. while Kadri might have higher potential, but a higher risk. Not telling us anything we don't know. The thing that will work well is Kadri's favor is something that the writer brings up: Kadri has heart... You can have all the skill in the world (daige) and if you don't have the heart or drive.. it wont do you any good. He puts in a 100% effort, is consistent and has the skills to be a very good NHLer... if he can bulk up, and add "jam" to his game. Well he added alot of "jam" to his game this year, and with his drive, playing in the NHL is a realistic goal. I think in 5-10 years... Kadri might have taken the Marc Savard route, but will make an impact for the leafs.. assuming they are willing to be patient with him.
Stanley, go back and read the article, please.

I didn't say my brother was a top-flight scout and it's a safe assumption that he has the same last name as me. Read the article in the context for which it was written and you'll understand why I call him my "super scout."

He gives me advice on players who play in the OHL. I've used that advice -- which I consider excellent because of his track record -- to draft OHL players for my hockey pool team. He often gives me the advice well ahead of the curve and I've used it to my advantage.

I respect your opinions on Kadri, and remember, my brother isn't saying Kadri won't be any good. The point is that he thinks Holland will be better because his game will translate better to the NHL.


Last edited by Ryan Van Horne: 04-22-2010 at 10:15 AM.
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Old
04-22-2010, 10:13 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeo1 View Post
Seriously? ****. I had no clue man.

Thank you. Your posts have been truly eye opening.

I think we've found the Prospect board's Mess.
You're welcome. As someone who sometimes grows weary of wading through this quagmire, I thought it was my civic duty to point that out to you and others.

Now, go be the change you want to see in the world.

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04-22-2010, 10:24 AM
  #32
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Good article. I agree that Holland has great potential. Look at players like Jeff Carter and Ryan Getzlaf, they weren't absolutely lighting up the CHL (they still had pretty good numbers), but they were big and skilled, which enabled them to translate their games to the NHL fairly easily. As for Kadri, the Leafs NEED to have patience. He is a small guy, but with a big heart and a competetive edge which will serve him well. His skill level virtually guarantees that he will be an NHL player, but that could range from a 40 point to a 90 point player, it depends on his development. The kid right now is what, 5'11", 175 lbs? If he becomes 5'11" 195 lbs, and doesn't lose his speed, I think he will be very very good. Another thing that Kadri has going for him is that he is a very shifty player.

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04-22-2010, 10:30 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scribe View Post
Go back and read what I wrote -- please.

I did not say that was amazed that my opinion was not "more popular or right than the old one."

I'm just amazed that people are so quick to dismiss opinions that differ from their own. Not considering alternate opinions is blinkered.
And again, meaning no malicious or aggressive intent...not sure why it's amazing. It's the internet, and it's hfboards; dismissing opinions is half of the content here. Add in a high sensitivity some of the more defensive Leafs fans have to the many 'Leafs-will-never-succeed-and-here-is-why' posts...this isn't one of those, but it's a predictable response. Just saying, don't expect anything else.

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04-22-2010, 10:38 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scribe View Post
Wow, this article is unpopular in Leafs country.



It's the brother who likes Holland better and the author is sharing that opinion. FWIW, he knows Kadri, too, and likes him. He just doesn't think he'll be a better NHLer than Holland.

As for Burke, the brother expresses no opinion of him. That opinion is the author's and the comments he makes don't reflect a dislike of Burke, they question his wisdom -- specifically the Phil Kessel trade.



The brother recommended these guys as solid NHL players well before they were drafted by the NHL and long before most people on this board heard of them -- some as young as 15. That means he's pretty good at predicting what kind of player will make it in the NHL and who won't.



Other criticisms: Not a great finisher -- especially for a No. 7 pick.
Not physical enough, not good enough defensively, and lacks the start-up speed what you'd want in a small player who needs to make it as a top-six scorer.

To his credit, he admits he could be wrong. He knows as well as anyone that it's difficult to project a player's development.

The opinion is meant to challenge the conventional wisdom and make you think.

The gap between the two shouldn't be as great as some say. In one person's view, a person who is plugged in and speaks to scouts, coaches and GMs in the OHL, there is no gap and Holland could possibly be better.

If that opinion scares you or makes you feel uncomfortable as a Leafs fan, then you can take solace in the fact that there are no certainties in predicting the future NHL performance of teenage hockey players. You'll just have to hope that this is one of those cases where he's wrong.

Just be aware though, that he's right a lot more than he's wrong.

Keep your fingers crossed, Leafs nation.

Edit: After checking with the mods and getting the OK, I will disclose that I am the author of the article in question.
You know I've actually read and agreed with a lot of your opinions on OHL players in the past and don't really disagree that one of these guys could be better in the future.
As you can see I watch OHL in the East and don't see all that much of the West so I don't have a conclusive opinion on either allthough I do like the skills of Kadri from what I seen. It's not a Leaf thing either as I had plenty of friends pissed at me for saying drafting Ware was a waste and more recently for saying Mitchell won't do anything because he has learned little since he was 16 with the Gens.
But ,You did lose me with the Burke slam ......
I’m going to say something that will be unpopular in Leafs country and if Brian Burke ever reads this, it will make him think I’m an idiot. That’s OK, Brian, sometimes, the feeling is mutual. (Case in point, you might want to get your rebuilding team out of the cellar before you start trading your first-round picks – especially if you’re going to trade them in pairs. OK, that was an easy shot, but seriously, if you had done your homework on Kessel, you would have quickly learned that he was not your kind of player.)
I's your opinion and that's fine but when it was expressed as part of the article I stopped listening. It would have been better off left out .


Last edited by leafmon: 04-22-2010 at 10:49 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old
04-22-2010, 11:37 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scribe View Post
Curtis, I guess you didn't read the original article, which explains that the opinion expressed is that of my brother. I wrote it, but I'm sharing his opinion.

He's covered the OHL and the Knights for almost 30 years. When he compares a current Knight to a former Knight, he's drawing on a fair bit of knowledge. If he says Dave Bolland is a better finisher than Nazem Kadri, that's good enough for me. I just threw the numbers in there to compare.

As for the “vast differences” between the 05-06 edition of the Knights and this year's, what do you think they are?

They had identical win totals -- 49 -- and while the 2005-06 team scored more goals – 304 to 273 – it’s not that big a difference.

I know what my brother thinks, but I’d like to read your opinion.

I hope you're not thinking of the 2004-5 team that won the Memorial Cup with Corey Perry and Danny Syvret or the 2006-07 edition that had Pat Kane and Sam Gagner.
First of all, 3 out of the top 4 scorers in the league were on the 05/06 Knights.

In 09/10 Kadri was the only Knight in the top 29 in the league in scoring.

Kadri had 26pts more than the next closest Knight. Bolland wasn't even the top scoring forward on his team.

In 05/06 7 players had 100+ pts. In 09/10 only 2 had 100+ pts(Hall & Seguin)

The 05/06 Knights were supposed to be one of the leagues best teams going into the season. 09/10 was supposed to be a rebuilding year for London. Many were predicting that getting home ice advantage in the first round would be difficult. What the Knights did this year is astounding. No one was epecting them to perform like they did.

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Old
04-22-2010, 11:53 AM
  #36
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Oh, Scribe wrote the article, that makes more sense. Didn't know why he was defending it so much.

That's fine if that's your opinion, I personally don't really agree with it based on what I've heard and seen.

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04-22-2010, 01:06 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoThreat View Post
Oh, Scribe wrote the article, that makes more sense. Didn't know why he was defending it so much.

That's fine if that's your opinion, I personally don't really agree with it based on what I've heard and seen.
Actually, I've spent more time correcting erroneous assumptions because some people aren't reading carefully.

If we could just keep the discussion to "Who will be better as an NHLer and why?" I'd be happy. It would also be more in line with why the OP started this thread.

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04-22-2010, 01:20 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leafmon View Post
You know I've actually read and agreed with a lot of your opinions on OHL players in the past and don't really disagree that one of these guys could be better in the future.
As you can see I watch OHL in the East and don't see all that much of the West so I don't have a conclusive opinion on either allthough I do like the skills of Kadri from what I seen. It's not a Leaf thing either as I had plenty of friends pissed at me for saying drafting Ware was a waste and more recently for saying Mitchell won't do anything because he has learned little since he was 16 with the Gens.
But ,You did lose me with the Burke slam ......
I’m going to say something that will be unpopular in Leafs country and if Brian Burke ever reads this, it will make him think I’m an idiot. That’s OK, Brian, sometimes, the feeling is mutual. (Case in point, you might want to get your rebuilding team out of the cellar before you start trading your first-round picks – especially if you’re going to trade them in pairs. OK, that was an easy shot, but seriously, if you had done your homework on Kessel, you would have quickly learned that he was not your kind of player.)
I's your opinion and that's fine but when it was expressed as part of the article I stopped listening. It would have been better off left out .
That's unfortunate that you had that reaction. I hope that wasn't the case with too many other people. The issue of Kadri vs. Holland is quite different from the one surrounding the wisdom of the Phil Kessel trade, but you have to appreciate the column was written for a different audience.

Had I been writing here in this forum, I might not have written that. Who knows? Not backing away from what I wrote, just saying I'm asked to express opinions in that column and I do. I use a more provocative style there than I do here.

Since the topic of the OP and the Kessel trade are unrelated, I won't delve into my thoughts on that and why I wrote that about Burke. That's for another thread or I guess we can discuss it offline if you like. I'd be happy to.

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Old
04-22-2010, 07:30 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scribe View Post
Stanley, go back and read the article, please.

I didn't say my brother was a top-flight scout and it's a safe assumption that he has the same last name as me. Read the article in the context for which it was written and you'll understand why I call him my "super scout."

He gives me advice on players who play in the OHL. I've used that advice -- which I consider excellent because of his track record -- to draft OHL players for my hockey pool team. He often gives me the advice well ahead of the curve and I've used it to my advantage.

I respect your opinions on Kadri, and remember, my brother isn't saying Kadri won't be any good. The point is that he thinks Holland will be better because his game will translate better to the NHL.
Though I don't share the same opinion, I can see the idea. I expect Holland to translate well to the NHL due to his size/skating alone.

This being said, I don't buy the Kadri has to be a top 6 or he's an AHLer view. He's not Rob Schremp, the comparisons are hilarious that people try to throw out. I'm not saying Nazem is guaranteed to be a top 6 forward, if he doesn't develop as expected, notably in the weight room he won't be. But this goes for any prospect.

As for the article in general, I don't know why your surprised with the responses. IMO it didn't read like you were saying why Holland is better than Kadri, yet, what you think is wrong with Kadri. Which in general, when you make a statement like Holland will be a better pro than Kadri (I know it was your brother), that isn't shared by many of the scouts and GM's, you need to support it in favour of Holland more than you did IMO.

End of the day, it seems like an attempt to stir up the audience (most journalism is), but it's an opinion article, and was a good read for the most part.

EDIT: Just looking the article over, the random Burke part may be a reason for such responses. Of course, what Madic said is spot on as well.

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11-05-2012, 08:49 PM
  #40
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Checking in

How about it Leafs' fans.

Would you support a straight-up trade of Nazem Kadri for Peter Holland now?

Do you think Brian Burke would have the chutzpah to make such an offer?

Do you think the Ducks would accept it? Neither player has established themselves in the NHL yet, but let's revisit this.


Last edited by Ryan Van Horne: 11-05-2012 at 10:16 PM.
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11-05-2012, 08:54 PM
  #41
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Do you think the Ducks would accept it?
We would not.

Credit to whoever originated the Carter comparison. That was dead on.

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11-05-2012, 10:36 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Van Horne View Post
How about it Leafs' fans.

Would you support a straight-up trade of Nazem Kadri for Peter Holland now?

Do you think Brian Burke would have the chutzpah to make such an offer?

Do you think the Ducks would accept it? Neither player has established themselves in the NHL yet, but let's revisit this.
If I'm going off stats alone? Not a chance.

Kadri 8GP 3points
Holland 8GP 5 goals 5 points.

He's been really good lately. Like he could step into the NHL now. Maybe in a third line role and then work his way up.

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11-05-2012, 10:40 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Van Horne View Post
Would you support a straight-up trade of Nazem Kadri for Peter Holland now?
No

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Van Horne View Post
Do you think Brian Burke would have the chutzpah to make such an offer?
No

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan Van Horne View Post
Do you think the Ducks would accept it?
Yes.


Last edited by Leafidelity: 11-05-2012 at 10:45 PM.
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11-05-2012, 10:46 PM
  #44
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No



No



Yes
Care to explain WHY Anaheim would accept? Because he was drafted higher? Holland is playing better right now and he's slightly bigger than Kadri.

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11-05-2012, 10:52 PM
  #45
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I think Peter Holland's skillset will allow him to be a better player at the NHL level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iPunch View Post
Yes.
Pretty bold claim, since Holland has 10 points in 8 games, and has been Norfolk's best forward.

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11-05-2012, 10:54 PM
  #46
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I think Peter Holland's skillset will allow him to be a better player at the NHL level.



Pretty bold claim, since Holland has 10 points in 8 games, and has been Norfolk's best forward.
That's great for him. I still think Kadri has more skill to offer an NHL team. Not sure why he's constantly used as a benchmark for players who go on a good run.

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Care to explain WHY Anaheim would accept? Because he was drafted higher? Holland is playing better right now and he's slightly bigger than Kadri.
Because Anaheim has a lousy PP and Kadri is at worst a PP playmaker. Also because Selanne and Koivu are getting older and there will be a hole for a finesse player in the near future.

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11-05-2012, 10:57 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by iPunch View Post
That's great for him. I still think Kadri has more skill to offer an NHL team. Not sure why he's constantly used as a benchmark for players who go on a good run.
Is this not a Holland vs Kadri thread?

Quote:
Because Anaheim has a lousy PP and Kadri is at worst a PP playmaker. Also because Selanne and Koivu are getting older and there will be a hole for a finesse player in the near future.
Holland has been very effective on the powerplay. That's a total non-factor if that's the thing that would ultimately sway Anaheim.

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11-05-2012, 10:58 PM
  #48
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Is this not a Holland vs Kadri thread?
Yes. But then there isn't many young forwards you couldn't find vs. Kadri thread for. Bumping a two year old thread to pimp Holland only adds to my claim.

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11-05-2012, 10:59 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iPunch View Post
That's great for him. I still think Kadri has more skill to offer an NHL team. Not sure why he's constantly used as a benchmark for players who go on a good run.
And Holland has better physical skills to negate any skill advantage.

Quote:
Because Anaheim has a lousy PP and Kadri is at worst a PP playmaker. Also because Selanne and Koivu are getting older and there will be a hole for a finesse player in the near future.
Selanne would be replaced by Bobby Ryan, and Koivu isn't on the 1st PP unit. That leaves little room for Kadri. Anaheim would be far more interested in a player who can do things at even strength because, you know, that's how most of an NHL game is played.

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11-05-2012, 11:00 PM
  #50
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And Holland has better physical skills to negate any skill advantage.



Selanne would be replaced by Bobby Ryan, and Koivu isn't on the 1st PP unit. That leaves little room for Kadri. Anaheim would be far more interested in a player who can do things at even strength.
I really don't see anything more than a decent 3rd liner in Holland, but if you say so. I still think Anaheim's PP needs a shakeup.

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