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Old
05-11-2010, 11:27 PM
  #251
jarek
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Unlike the Caps, I really think there's something wrong with the Canucks. Where the Caps only need to make a couple of adjustments (and probably just trade Green) to get them over the hump, Vancouver has some work to do. They need to first strip Luongo's captaincy. Secondly, they need to get a QUALITY glue guy to play with the Sedins. Burrows played way over his head this season, and the playoffs showed that. Samuelsson just isn't the right guy for it. A guy like Knuble is what that line needs.

Fire Vigneault is another thing that needs to be done. The announcers were talking about how great it was that Vigneault put the Sedins out against the Bolland line to start the game - I think it was idiotic. Those guys have been dominating the Sedins all series, why the hell would it change in game 6? He needs to go, he can't coach an NHL team anymore.

The defensemen as a group are decent, but they really need a high impact puck moving guy. They just have a bunch of mid to low end guys who are anywhere from good to mediocre, but no real stalwart. Every other playoff team still in it has that elite puck moving dman (except maybe Montreal, but Subban has been great). You just can't do it anymore without very good transition from the D.

They need some scoring depth, badly. When the Sedins get shut down, the scoring practically disappears. Samuelsson was hot for a while, but who actually thought that would last? They need some proven top-6 forwards that can score. The guys they have are just decent, and they do have a couple of prospects that should be great in the future (guys like Grabner), but if they really want to contend now, they need to sign a guy like Marleau or even Kovalchuk.

Get rid of Demitra ASAP. He, what, led the Olympics in points and then when he comes back to Vancouver, is completely useless? It's pretty obvious why he came back - he doesn't care about the NHL anymore. And good riddance.

I almost wonder if Luongo's best days are starting to get behind him? He's been madly inconsistent all year. He's already 31 and apparently not getting any younger. Canucks might wanna start to think about a successor if his play doesn't turn around, but I have a feeling if they get rid of his captaincy, he'll slowly go back into form.

Other than that.. dunno. This team was terrible. A few really solid games but way too many undisciplined penalties combined with a terrible PK (and that can probably be blamed on Vigneault's inept coaching more than anything else), is what led to their demise. But all those other factors contributed too, I think.

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05-11-2010, 11:40 PM
  #252
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I'm gonna disagree with a few things, jarek. (lol sorry if i'm being overaggressive)

-Burrows was not a fluke. Stellar season last year, great work this year as well obviously. Samuelsson is a great backup plan. It wasn't the third Sedin that was the issue, it was the first two.

-Completely disagree about the defense. Having a high-end guy would be nice, but I think Ehrhoff, Bieksa, Edler and Salo all fill that puck moving role decent enough. What's needed is a quicker, mobile, Willie Mitchell. One that is hopefully a little less injury-prone. Zybnek Michalek, Paul Martin, I'm looking at you. Someone like Seidenberg would be beautiful as well. Re-hauling the defense is something that is drastically needed, it should help Luongo's game as well.

-The offense has all the right pieces in place on paper, just like the Caps offense. In fact, the Caps and Canucks were the two highest scoring offenses in the league. Scoring depth wasn't an "issue" for either team, but you're right, it's what killed them in the end. The Sedins are supposed to be two of the league's best players. Seriously, Hank's up for the Hart. One of Burrows or Sammy should be able to click with them 90% of the time if they're rotating the hot hand. Then you got Selke Kesler on the second line, next to Raymond who was probably one of the best forwards (along with Wellwood) and probably Grabner or the other of Burrows/Sammy. The bottom-6 needs revamping though, and the aforementioned Kyle Wellwood should be re-signed. Don't give Hodgson the spot right away.

-Agreed with the rest. Cory Schneider would've been the starter next year had that been Dan Cloutier in net. I agree, no way they can't strip the captaincy now...but what do you do with a goalie in the first year of his 12 year extension which kicks in next season, if you're already questioning him...

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05-11-2010, 11:42 PM
  #253
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The Versus analysts said that the game was pretty much over when Edler went down because Vancouver basically ran out of bodies who could play on the blueline.

It's why Lou Lamorello always liked going into the playoffs with 8 defensemen on the roster back in the Devils heyday.

By the way, Keith Jones on Versus is fast becoming my favorite hockey analyst. So much better than the clowns ESPN always ran with. It's funny because I always thought of him as a meathead-type player when he played.

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05-11-2010, 11:45 PM
  #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vancityluongo View Post
Paul Martin, I'm looking at you. ..
Ugh, if the Devils lose one of their only two competent even strength defensemen (Andy Green is the other one), they might as well trade Brodeur at this point.

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05-11-2010, 11:46 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by vancityluongo View Post
-Luongo...the guy was great in Game 5, but he's been just so damn inconsistent since arriving in Vancouver. God-like spells, then absolutely nothing. Why take him over someone like Niemi then? At least with Niemi, you're consistently getting average goaltending. Luongo honestly seems unable to stop breakaways, shots with traffic in front...the only thing he can stop is shots from the perimeter which he makes those flashy glove saves on...
I actually think Niemi is significantly worse. He's good at stopping low shots he can see, but he benefits greatly from a defence adept at stopping cross ice plays or preventing scoring chances. I agree that having a really good defence with an average goaltender is better than having an average defence with a really good goaltender, but I don't think Niemi even falls into the average category. He let in horrendous goals, but he sees so few quality chances because of the Hawk's brilliant defence, he looks average.

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05-11-2010, 11:49 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by AugerLovesBurrows View Post
I actually think Niemi is significantly worse. He's good at stopping low shots he can see, but he benefits greatly from a defence adept at stopping cross ice plays or preventing scoring chances. I agree that having a really good defence with an average goaltender is better than having an average defence with a really good goaltender, but I don't think Niemi even falls into the average category. He let in horrendous goals, but he sees so few quality chances because of the Hawk's brilliant defence, he looks average.
I've seen Duncan Keith - Brent Seabrook being compared to Mark Howe - Brad McCrimmon from the 80s. It's obviously early for that, but I can see it.

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05-11-2010, 11:52 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post

I almost wonder if Luongo's best days are starting to get behind him? He's been madly inconsistent all year. He's already 31 and apparently not getting any younger. Canucks might wanna start to think about a successor if his play doesn't turn around, but I have a feeling if they get rid of his captaincy, he'll slowly go back into form.
He's really only had one bad season. People like to pretend the only good year he had with Vancouver was his first, but in his injury shortened campaign last year, he was 33-13-7 with 9 shutouts, a .920 SV%, and a 2.34 GAA. He'll probably bounce back as he was actually really good the first half of this season, so he obviously has it in him still.

Plus the entire team sucks versus Chicago for a variety of reasons. The Canucks are way too mentally fragile against them (and really only them). Something has to be done, and that probably begins with a couple of real defencemen (one of the major UFA defenceman and Seidenberg?) and some depth forwards who can actually kill off penalties.

Also Kesler's obvious injury really crippled the Canucks. He's a huge part of the way they play when they are succesfull and just couldn't bring the jump he normally does.

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Old
05-11-2010, 11:54 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post

"He's proven nothing in big games."
I don't mean to be such a Luongo apologist, but I love people's selective definiton of a "big game". To me Olympic games are much more important than round 2 playoff games. While he wasn't perfect there, he did a good enough job to show he could win a big game.

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05-11-2010, 11:57 PM
  #259
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Originally Posted by AugerLovesBurrows View Post
I don't mean to be such a Luongo apologist, but I love people's selective definiton of a "big game". To me Olympic games are much more important than round 2 playoff games. While he wasn't perfect there, he did a good enough job to show he could win a big game.
I deleted the post because I didn't want to start a pissing match. Oh well too late.

I said that if anyone was watching The Daily Line on Versus (I really like Jen Sterger...), Ken Danyeko was trashing Luongo. The other thing he said was that "Luongo isn't an upper echelon goaltender in the league."

I do think that's going too far. But the thing is that Vancouver is really built to be a team where the goaltender is the best player, and Luongo hasn't been. They definitely need a better defense in front of him.

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05-11-2010, 11:58 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by vancityluongo View Post
.

-Completely disagree about the defense. Having a high-end guy would be nice, but I think Ehrhoff, Bieksa, Edler and Salo all fill that puck moving role decent enough. What's needed is a quicker, mobile, Willie Mitchell. One that is hopefully a little less injury-prone. Zybnek Michalek, Paul Martin, I'm looking at you. Someone like Seidenberg would be beautiful as well. Re-hauling the defense is something that is drastically needed, it should help Luongo's game as well.
Ranking the main available UFA defencemen, I think I'd go:
Michalek
Martin
Hamhuis
Volchenkov

For some strange reason, I covet Seidenberg. Maybe I just want more Germans?

Edler - Michalek
Ehrhoff - Seidenberg
Salo - O'Brien
Rome
?

(Sorry for turning this into the Canucks thread, but the rest of the Canucks online universe is too reactionary at the moment and this thread at least can generate intelligent, respectful replies).

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Old
05-12-2010, 12:01 AM
  #261
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I deleted the post because I didn't want to start a pissing match. Oh well too late.

I said that if anyone was watching The Daily Line on Versus (I really like Jen Sterger...), Ken Danyeko was trashing Luongo. The other thing he said was that "Luongo isn't an upper echelon goaltender in the league."

I do think that's going too far. But the thing is that Vancouver is really built to be a team where the goaltender is the best player, and Luongo hasn't been. They definitely need a better defense in front of him.
I'll delete this sequence of posts if you want, but I don't think we have the posters in this thread that will create a pissing match. I completely agree with you. Luongo is clearly not the centerpiece Dave Nonis envisioned. He is not this generation's Patrick Roy. He needs to just be another piece in the team, not the piece (and due to his long-term cap hit, he's paid like that now. Luongo's not worth a 7 million cap hit, but 5.33 is reasonable)

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05-12-2010, 12:13 AM
  #262
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TDMM, what're the chances do you think Martin leaves? 50/50? I know NJ should be improving their defense if anything, and letting go of their top guy isn't the best way to start, but all I've heard is that Martin is gonna hit the market...? Any validity to that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AugerLovesBurrows View Post
I actually think Niemi is significantly worse. He's good at stopping low shots he can see, but he benefits greatly from a defence adept at stopping cross ice plays or preventing scoring chances. I agree that having a really good defence with an average goaltender is better than having an average defence with a really good goaltender, but I don't think Niemi even falls into the average category. He let in horrendous goals, but he sees so few quality chances because of the Hawk's brilliant defence, he looks average.
He also didn't get traffic in front of him nearly enough IMHO. Average might be overstating it, but I honestly believe that other than a few exceptions, he played better than Luongo, all things equal (not taking into account our ****** defense vs. their all-world level one).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AugerLovesBurrows View Post
Ranking the main available UFA defencemen, I think I'd go:
Michalek
Martin
Hamhuis
Volchenkov

For some strange reason, I covet Seidenberg. Maybe I just want more Germans?

Edler - Michalek
Ehrhoff - Seidenberg
Salo - O'Brien
Rome
?
That's EXACTLY what I want to see. I'm not a huge supporter of Volchenkov on the team, only because he's slightly injury prone. Hamhuis...I'm not completely sold on either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AugerLovesBurrows View Post
He's really only had one bad season. People like to pretend the only good year he had with Vancouver was his first, but in his injury shortened campaign last year, he was 33-13-7 with 9 shutouts, a .920 SV%, and a 2.34 GAA. He'll probably bounce back as he was actually really good the first half of this season, so he obviously has it in him still.

Plus the entire team sucks versus Chicago for a variety of reasons. The Canucks are way too mentally fragile against them (and really only them). Something has to be done, and that probably begins with a couple of real defencemen (one of the major UFA defenceman and Seidenberg?) and some depth forwards who can actually kill off penalties.

Also Kesler's obvious injury really crippled the Canucks. He's a huge part of the way they play when they are succesfull and just couldn't bring the jump he normally does.
Yup, yup, yup. Agreed with everything, exactly what I think, just phrased much better without the hint of venting.

I'll finish off with yet another apology for Canuck rosterbating all over this thread.

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05-12-2010, 12:14 AM
  #263
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That's EXACTLY what I want to see. I'm not a huge supporter of Volchenkov on the team, only because he's slightly injury prone. Hamhuis...I'm not completely sold on either.

Yup, yup, yup. Agreed with everything, exactly what I think, just phrased much better without the hint of venting.

I'll finish off with yet another apology for Canuck rosterbating all over this thread.
Maybe we could co-GM the Canucks next

Quote:
Originally Posted by vancityluongo View Post
but I honestly believe that other than a few exceptions, he played better than Luongo, all things equal (not taking into account our ****** defense vs. their all-world level one).
Looking up the stats, that doesn't say much

Niemi: .898 SV%
Luongo: .896 SV%

How many series have had worse performances?


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Old
05-12-2010, 12:24 AM
  #264
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TDMM, what're the chances do you think Martin leaves? 50/50? I know NJ should be improving their defense if anything, and letting go of their top guy isn't the best way to start, but all I've heard is that Martin is gonna hit the market...? Any validity to that?


.
I'd say there's a 75% chance Martin stays. Given that the Devils defense would be FUBAR if Martin left, I think it's more likely that Lou will overpay to keep him than it is that he lets him go.

In my opinion, the Devils need 2 new defensemen in their top 4 to be a real contender. If Martin left, they would need 3!

Good defensive-minded forwards, a defensive system, and a great goalie can mask a bad defense in the regular season, but bad defenses fall apart under the pressure of the playoffs.

This is the deepest group of UFA defensemen I've ever seen, but there seem like there are going to be lots of suitors.


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Old
05-12-2010, 06:09 AM
  #265
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Yesterday was such a glorious day in hockey, Slovakia won, Czechs lost, Canucks lost... Now let's just hope the Pens lose.

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05-12-2010, 08:59 AM
  #266
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Which Habs jersey do I wear tonight? Harvey, Rocket, or Koivu?

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Old
05-12-2010, 02:21 PM
  #267
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How can you be so sure?
Because the Pens are far superior and put together the game they have to, when they need to. It's not pretty, but it has gotten them through 8 of the last 9 rounds of the playoffs.

Honestly, I think this will be one of those game 7s where the superior team finally dummies up and puts the inferior team in its place with a convincing win. Such as:

- 1993 TOR/STL
- 2001 NJD/TOR
- 2003 PHI/TOR
- 2004 TOR/OTT
- 2009 PIT/WSH
- 2010 DET/PHX

So no, I don't think it will be close. And I'll be here to eat my words if I'm wrong.

If Pittsburgh beats the 3-goal "spread", so to speak, then I win. If they don't, we'll call it a draw. If they lose, well, then I'm wrong.

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You ****ing Pieces Of ****ing You ****ing ******* ****ing Douhcebags I Hope You Fallf Ucking Rott In Hellp Ieces Of ****ing **** Incompetent ****ing Moron I Wanna Beat The ****ing **** Out Of You Demitra You Dumbf Ucking Blow Your ****ing Brains Your ****ing Moron What The ****ing Erwy Ou ****ing Thikin You Dumb **** Isaw That ****ing Breakaway Coming From A A Million Miles Away You Dumb****s Why The **** Would You Keep Making Flimsy Ass Two ****ing Foot Pass At The ****ing Blue Line When There's A Guy Right There And It's Almost Been Intercepted Twice Already You Dumbf Ucking I Cant Say I Expected Any Better From A Bunch Of ****ing Losers Incompetent Pieces Of ****
LOL

That was painful to watch, and I didn't even really care who won.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vancityluongo View Post
-Luongo...the guy was great in Game 5, but he's been just so damn inconsistent since arriving in Vancouver. God-like spells, then absolutely nothing. Why take him over someone like Niemi then? At least with Niemi, you're consistently getting average goaltending. Luongo honestly seems unable to stop breakaways, shots with traffic in front...the only thing he can stop is shots from the perimeter which he makes those flashy glove saves on...
Is Luongo's legacy going to be that he was a good goalie on bad teams, then a bad goalie on good teams? My god, what a terrible playoff this was for him. His team's PK was bad, but a lot of that was him!

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05-12-2010, 02:28 PM
  #268
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Which Habs jersey do I wear tonight? Harvey, Rocket, or Koivu?
Rocket, you need the support of the best clutch scorer ever.

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Old
05-12-2010, 02:29 PM
  #269
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I've seen Duncan Keith - Brent Seabrook being compared to Mark Howe - Brad McCrimmon from the 80s. It's obviously early for that, but I can see it.
Now keeping them together will be the challenge. Plus Kane and Toews.

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05-12-2010, 02:32 PM
  #270
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The Canucks may need a true enforcer. Someone who can let the rest of the team know that it's taken care of, so the stupid penalties are greatly reduced.

The scary thing is, we had 8 d-men. But so many injuries that it got reduced to 5.

The forward corps is solid. Demitra is gone, but Hodgson and Schroeder are ready for a good long look.

IMO, the Canucks need to keep Edler, Ehrhoff, Mitchell, Salo and Rome on the backline, and bring in a stay at home d-man who can effectively police the crease and a powerplay QB.

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05-12-2010, 03:45 PM
  #271
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I think the value of an elite puck moving defenseman is being underrated here.. badly.

Pittsburgh had Gonchar.
Detroit had Lidstrom
Anaheim had Niedermayer/Pronger
Tampa had an, at the time, elite Kubina.
New Jersey had Niedermayer.
Detroit had Lidstrom.
Colorado had Bourque/Blake.
New Jersey had Niedermayer.
Dallas had Zubov.
Detroit had Lidstrom.
Detroit had Lidstrom.
Colorado had, at the time, an elite Ozolinsh.
New Jersey had Niedermayer.
New York had Leetch.
Montreal had Desjardins/Schnieder.
Pittsburgh had Coffey/Murphy.
Pittsburgh had Coffey/Murphy.
Calgary had Suter.
The Oilers dynasty had Coffey.

Need I go on? The only team I didn't mention here was Carolina from 05-06 (did Wesley/Kaberle play at anything close to an elite level?) and the 89-90 Oilers (I thought they had Coffey but apparently not.. Rutsolainen?).

I'm not saying that having an elite puck mover is going to guarantee a cup, but history says that you pretty much need to have one if you want a chance to win.

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05-12-2010, 03:49 PM
  #272
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
I think the value of an elite puck moving defenseman is being underrated here.. badly.

Pittsburgh had Gonchar.
Detroit had Lidstrom
Anaheim had Niedermayer/Pronger
Tampa had an, at the time, elite Kubina.
New Jersey had Niedermayer.
Detroit had Lidstrom.
Colorado had Bourque/Blake.
New Jersey had Niedermayer.
Dallas had Zubov.
Detroit had Lidstrom.
Detroit had Lidstrom.
Colorado had, at the time, an elite Ozolinsh.
New Jersey had Niedermayer.
New York had Leetch.
Montreal had Desjardins/Schnieder.
Pittsburgh had Coffey/Murphy.
Pittsburgh had Coffey/Murphy.
Calgary had Suter.
The Oilers dynasty had Coffey.

Need I go on? The only team I didn't mention here was Carolina from 05-06 (did Wesley/Kaberle play at anything close to an elite level?) and the 89-90 Oilers (I thought they had Coffey but apparently not.. Rutsolainen?).

I'm not saying that having an elite puck mover is going to guarantee a cup, but history says that you pretty much need to have one if you want a chance to win.
Add Brian Rafalski to the Devils in 2000 and 2003 and Red Wings in 2007. He's soft but very good at getting the puck up the ice.

The Devil's mini-dynasty from 2000-03 had either Rafalski or Niedermayer on the ice for 45 minutes per game.

Even go before that - The Islanders has Potvin and Persson, the Canadiens had Robinson and Lapointe (on different pairs), etc.

Frantisek Kaberle was actually a very effective puck mover in 2006. Not elite, but better than anyone Vancouver (or NJ) has now.

Edit And you're forgetting the most important dman on Tampa: Dan Boyle.


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05-12-2010, 04:08 PM
  #273
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You're right, I did forget Boyle.. anyways, the point I was trying to make should be pretty clear. Edler/Salo/Ehrhoff/Bieksa just isn't good enough.

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05-12-2010, 04:11 PM
  #274
TheDevilMadeMe
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You're right, I did forget Boyle.. anyways, the point I was trying to make should be pretty clear. Edler/Salo/Ehrhoff/Bieksa just isn't good enough.
Bieksa is so good sometimes though. He was so good in Game 5. What happens to him? Is he an all-the-tools, no toolbox kind of guy?

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05-12-2010, 04:15 PM
  #275
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Bieksa is so good sometimes though. He was so good in Game 5. What happens to him? Is he an all-the-tools, no toolbox kind of guy?
Game 5 was his best game in 3 years. Complete anomaly.

Also, Ehrhoff is usually a very effective puck mover (at least as good as Frantisek Kaberle).

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