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Old
05-13-2010, 05:40 PM
  #301
seventieslord
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Neither do I, other than Crosby and Malkin are OVERRATED!
Another jarek kneejerk reaction to a single game or series.

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05-13-2010, 06:25 PM
  #302
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Another jarek kneejerk reaction to a single game or series.
What? They couldn't beat a Montreal team that they badly outmatch on paper.

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05-13-2010, 07:05 PM
  #303
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One thing done this playoffs is: Lidstrom and Pronger have shown their greater value to a team than an Ovechkin or Crosby. The old dmen have sparkled. Pronger went 83rd in ATD 2010 this winter and Ovechkin 86th. That order ought not to change any time too soon.

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05-13-2010, 07:07 PM
  #304
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What? They couldn't beat a Montreal team that they badly outmatch on paper.
Yeah, but I give more credit to Montreal shutting them down than Crosby or Malkin choking personally.

It seems that if a player isn't performing up to standards, the initial reaction seems to be that he "choked", but very little credit is given to the play of the other other team/player. Luongo lets in a goal, no credit to Kane for the shot, rather, Luongo choked. Crosby vs. Gill, Crosby choked. Not saying that's what's going on here in this thread, just an observation by me.

I'm probably not a good Canuck fan for saying this, but I don't want San Jose to win. I'm rooting for in order: Montreal, Philadelphia, Boston, Chicago, San Jose. Although, I'm rather indifferent after the Habs...I just don't like the Sharks. It's weird.

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05-13-2010, 07:29 PM
  #305
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Ottawa played surprisingly well defensively except for Spezza, whom the play by play guy criticized several times for lacklustre effort and general ineffectiveness, as recent as ten minutes before Crosby's puck-ragging behind the net highlight assist. After that play all credit for Crosby's success that round went to Sid and suddenly Spezza's awful backchecking is forgotten, the media loving a hero.

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Yeah, but I give more credit to Montreal shutting them down than Crosby or Malkin choking personally.

Crosby vs. Gill, Crosby choked.
Uh, yeah. Gill isn't even a MLD level defenseman. The media have overblown his play into something more than a career #4/5 dman. Gorges and Subban were more impressive in the series. One of the lessons of this playoffs is that NHL GMs and coaches are taking notes on "How to stop an NHL regular season superstar in the playoffs" and it will be interesting to see how next postseason will go. (Halak has been great but the number of Crosby and Malkin amazing shots stopped by the goalie are very limited, the credit going to defense by committee of an average group of NHLers playing with extraordinary effort and superior coaching).

The fact is that Crosby and Malkin were contained in a way that Gretzky and Lemieux weren't. Gretz's worst playoff series came as a St. Louis Blue at age 35, Mario at age 29 after eight 100+ point regular seasons he only scored 4 goals, 7 points in a 6-game first round exit.

Crosby and Ovechkin ARE overhyped. Malkin a bit too (though he hasn't had the sort of raving mad media attention of the other two). I am not saying they are average by any means just they haven't shown themselves yet (yet!) to be as good as some all-time greats.

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05-13-2010, 08:44 PM
  #306
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I think maybe we should stop comparing these guys to all time greats because it isn't fair to them. Their careers have basically just started.

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05-13-2010, 09:28 PM
  #307
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Ottawa played surprisingly well defensively except for Spezza, whom the play by play guy criticized several times for lacklustre effort and general ineffectiveness, as recent as ten minutes before Crosby's puck-ragging behind the net highlight assist. After that play all credit for Crosby's success that round went to Sid and suddenly Spezza's awful backchecking is forgotten, the media loving a hero.


Uh, yeah. Gill isn't even a MLD level defenseman. The media have overblown his play into something more than a career #4/5 dman. Gorges and Subban were more impressive in the series. One of the lessons of this playoffs is that NHL GMs and coaches are taking notes on "How to stop an NHL regular season superstar in the playoffs" and it will be interesting to see how next postseason will go. (Halak has been great but the number of Crosby and Malkin amazing shots stopped by the goalie are very limited, the credit going to defense by committee of an average group of NHLers playing with extraordinary effort and superior coaching).

The fact is that Crosby and Malkin were contained in a way that Gretzky and Lemieux weren't. Gretz's worst playoff series came as a St. Louis Blue at age 35, Mario at age 29 after eight 100+ point regular seasons he only scored 4 goals, 7 points in a 6-game first round exit.

Crosby and Ovechkin ARE overhyped. Malkin a bit too (though he hasn't had the sort of raving mad media attention of the other two). I am not saying they are average by any means just they haven't shown themselves yet (yet!) to be as good as some all-time greats.
Gill, Gorges, Subban, give the credit to whoever you want to. It was them (the Montreal Canadiens) as a collective unit that shutdown #87, not Crosby that shut down Crosby. None of them should be mentioned on this forum outside this thread unless if maybe Gorges or Subban go on to have solid careers. That doesn't mean that they didn't have solid performances here.

Of course Crosby and Ovechkin are overhyped if you're comparing them to Lemieux and Gretzky...simply by making that comparison you're overhyping them already. If I'm comparing Halak to Ken Dryden, am I overhyping him? Absolutely. Yet, does that take away from his performance this year, which has been outstanding?

Crosby and Ovechkin both had average playoff series' against Montreal, and pretty poor ones by their standards, no question. If you're judging them by Gretzky/Lemieux standards, they had atrocious series'. I'm just not sure why we'd judge them like that. Maybe I'm taking things out of context/missing something here...

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05-14-2010, 12:44 AM
  #308
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One thing done this playoffs is: Lidstrom and Pronger have shown their greater value to a team than an Ovechkin or Crosby. The old dmen have sparkled. Pronger went 83rd in ATD 2010 this winter and Ovechkin 86th. That order ought not to change any time too soon.
Even if Ovechkin was more valuable this year, there should be more than 3 spots separating them, because Pronger has mega career value on him right now.

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05-14-2010, 03:10 AM
  #309
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The fact is that Crosby and Malkin were contained in a way that Gretzky and Lemieux weren't. Gretz's worst playoff series came as a St. Louis Blue at age 35, Mario at age 29 after eight 100+ point regular seasons he only scored 4 goals, 7 points in a 6-game first round exit.
Well, IIRC in '95-'96 Panthers limited Lemieux and Jagr to a goal each in the ECF. Much inferior team with a hot goalie, just like Habs.

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05-14-2010, 04:05 AM
  #310
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Well, IIRC in '95-'96 Panthers limited Lemieux and Jagr to a goal each in the ECF. Much inferior team with a hot goalie, just like Habs.
True story.

Also, the fact that the Lemieux-Francis-Jagr line lacked a true glue guy probably hurt them.

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05-14-2010, 04:43 AM
  #311
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True story.

Also, the fact that the Lemieux-Francis-Jagr line lacked a true glue guy probably hurt them.
There was no Francis in ECF, he broke his foot in the final game of the 2nd round series against NYR.

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05-14-2010, 08:53 AM
  #312
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There was no Francis in ECF, he broke his foot in the final game of the 2nd round series against NYR.
And they actually replaced him with a giant stick of glue.

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05-14-2010, 09:01 AM
  #313
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And they actually replaced him with a giant stick of glue.
omg how funny i'm STILL laughing

you made my day man

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05-14-2010, 02:02 PM
  #314
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LOL, nice one

Actually, Francis' absence was probably a huge hole for that team. With those three together that year, they were unstoppable. I can't see how he doesn't make the difference in a 7-game series like that.

Then we would have seen a great matchup we had missed out on previously, and never had a chance to see again - The battle of 10-5-65.

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05-14-2010, 02:06 PM
  #315
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LOL, nice one

Actually, Francis' absence was probably a huge hole for that team. With those three together that year, they were unstoppable. I can't see how he doesn't make the difference in a 7-game series like that.

Then we would have seen a great matchup we had missed out on previously, and never had a chance to see again - The battle of 10-5-65.
10-5-65? Am I missing something?

I forgot that Francis was out for that series.

It obviously made a huge difference as that line was ridiculous and the rest of the Pens weren't anything special from what I remember.

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05-14-2010, 03:12 PM
  #316
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10-5-65? Am I missing something?

I forgot that Francis was out for that series.

It obviously made a huge difference as that line was ridiculous and the rest of the Pens weren't anything special from what I remember.
No, they weren't anything special aside from that line. they did have decent secondary scoring depth. But they were a very run and gun team.

Funny story, I recall in that season I was playing over/under and it was SJ/PIT. I remember thinking. "Jeez. Best offensive team who is not good defensively, versus worst defensive team, who is not bad offensively. What do you think I'll pick?"

This was the score: http://www.hockey-reference.com/boxs...601130PIT.html

Anyway, regarding 10-5-65, yes, you are missing something

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05-14-2010, 09:39 PM
  #317
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Wow, so the West is 1 vs. 2 and the East is 7 vs. 8.

Bruins went into a defensive shell at 3-0 and it cost them.

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05-14-2010, 10:58 PM
  #318
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I find it so ironic that the Flyers come back from 3 goals to none in game 7 to win the game 4 goals to 3, and that completes the comeback from down 3 games to none to win the series 4 games to 3.

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05-15-2010, 03:45 PM
  #319
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I don't think that constitutes irony, but yes, interesting tidbit.

As for the seeding, it's an interesting case of opposites so far. After round 1, it was 1, 2, 3, 5 in the west and 4, 6, 7, 8 in the east. Now it's 1v2 and 7v8. Quite a unique year.

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05-15-2010, 10:16 PM
  #320
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Wow, this has been one the most enjoyable weekends I have ever had. I'm in Brandon for the SIHR Annual Meeting. I wasn't sure if it would just be a bunch of overweight middle-aged nerds, or if they would all be highly educated and I wouldn't fit in, or if socializing would be difficult. But I have gotten along with all these people so well, and the information I've been gleaning here, particularly from ex-NHLer (and Canadian national team member) Morris Mott, has been invaluable. I can only hope I can remember it all so that I can relay it to you guys in one long post. Today's guest speaker was Don "Bones" Raleigh, and he was entertaining and informative.

Jarek... I wish you were here, bro.

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05-15-2010, 10:18 PM
  #321
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Wow, this has been one the most enjoyable weekends I have ever had. I'm in Brandon for the SIHR Annual Meeting. I wasn't sure if it would just be a bunch of overweight middle-aged nerds, or if they would all be highly educated and I wouldn't fit in, or if socializing would be difficult. But I have gotten along with all these people so well, and the information I've been gleaning here, particularly from ex-NHLer (and Canadian national team member) Morris Mott, has been invaluable. I can only hope I can remember it all so that I can relay it to you guys in one long post. Today's guest speaker was Don "Bones" Raleigh, and he was entertaining and informative.

Jarek... I wish you were here, bro.
No money.

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05-15-2010, 10:39 PM
  #322
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I've spent so many hours of my life researching Jacques Lemaire, now, I could probably write a whole freakin book about him!

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05-16-2010, 06:21 PM
  #323
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OK, I'm going to do my best to relay the happenings of the weekend here.

I got in just in time to see Philly go up in game 7 and watch the end of the game with a bunch of hardcore hockey fans, That was nice. the result wasn't.

Bones Raleigh was in attendance, watching the game with the rest of us, and had brought a lot of material for our perusal. Old magazines and programs and leaflets and stuff. The programs were a phenomenal reference. They had short little bios on every Ranger player. I remember one passage on Laprade said that he was a wonderful stickhandler and that if someone was to track who spend the most time in possession of the puck in a game, Laprade would lead the category easily. This confirms the impression I got watching him on NHL Network in "1950 Stanley Cup Film". I also got to meet a lot of the better-known hockey historians out there like Jim Mancuso, Bill Fitzell, and Roger Godin. Pretty mucheveryone introduced themselves at some point at the meet-greet and everyone seemed a little interested in who this new young guy was, and what he's up to.

The next morning was all the business related stuff which I won't bore you with. Finalcial stuff, membership numbers, etc. I got to formally introduce myself at this point. You were supposed to mention your area of interest, and though I have many, I said "I am most interested in the pre-merger period of 1910 when the NHA was formed, until 1926 when the NHL took control of the Stanley Cup, and I like scouring books and old newspapers, collecting quotes and assembling detailed bios on players, and this is probably the only room in the world where I can say that I am the world's biggest Eddie Oatman fan without being looked at funny".

In the intermission prior to the guest speaker, Bill Fitzell came to me. Fitzell was the SIHR's founding president and author of three excellent historical books, mostly on the game's origins. I told him that it was humbling to meet such a hockey research legend, and he chuckled and said "well, maybe I'm a legend in my own mind". He said that he was quite interested to hear about my interest in the 1910-1926 period, and said that it was a very interesting "transitional" period. He then asked what kind of work and research I do. I thought rather than sugarcoat anything or hide the scope of my research, I put it all out there. In a minute I explained that I am essentially a competitive researcher, and that I participate in these things called "All-Time Drafts" where we pick players from throughout history and compare players from different eras, and vote on the results, so the motivation to ice a competitive team drives your desire to do solid and extensie research on the players, as you want to show that you picked the best players. His words were "that's a very worthwhile endeavor", which was of course encuraging to hear. He took down my name and email, as well as the address to hfboards so he could check out my work.

Amanda was a wonderrful guest and I am glad she was interested in coming along. She was actually the only significant other to make the journey. A few members told her in the elevator that they found me to be an interesting young member. She of course went out and did her own thing for much of the day, having a "spa day" but joined us for lunch after Don Raleigh's talk.

Raleigh, according to some members who know him better, wasn't in the greatest shape but lives on his own and can walk around just fine and speak at a good volume. He spoke for about 15 minutes and then spent a half hour answering questions. About Phil Watson (who I think is probably the worst coach ever to last more than a season), raleigh said "if you ever want to play for a guy who thinks he's god, try plying for that guy". He mentioned one night the Habs were pushing them around at MSG, and in the intermission, watson was tearing strips off everyone and then turned to Raleigh and said "and you, Bones, you shadow him", to which he replied "what's my shadow going to do?" - watson was not impressed. Also, can't remember who was the player who gave the quote, but Raleigh, who played at 145 pounds, said that a player in the 50s was asked in an interview who was the hardest hitter in the NHL, and he replied "Bones Raleigh". And the reporter asked "Why would you say Bones Raleigh? He's 145 pounds!" and the plaer replied "But when he hits you, he cuts you!"

raleigh also relayyed a pretty humorous story about how when he was playing against the Kraut line he said to his linemates "let's make sure to get some sticks in their faces", lined up, adn the next thing he remembered, he was on the ice with Schmidt on top of him saying "get your sticks in our faces, eh???"

Everyone asked a few questions; unfortunately, not many of them were that memorable but that's fine, they asked whatever they wanted to know. A few even asked him his opinions on this year's playoffs. Which reminds me, he mentioned that the way players "finish their checks" today would be considered charging/boarding every time back in the 50s. Another guy also asked who as the best player he played against, he named the usual suspects, Schmidt, richard, and Howe, but one guy noticed he didn't mention Lindsay and asked him later why not. he said he didn't like Lindsay and he was "one mean SOB". And that he still dislikes the wings to this day because of him, and was happy to see them eliminated.

I had three questions for Bones. First, I asked "you played briefly with Fred Shero. At the time, did he show signs of the eccentricity/genius that would later bring him success as a coach?" - he replied "naah, I couldn't tell what he was going to end up doing". then I asked, "You mention Phil Watson as a coach and what playing for him was like. About Phil Watson the player, he has good offensive numbers and was known as a fiery guy. Was he a defensive player at all? Did the coach tend to match him up against the opposition's best lines?" His reply was long and talked about a lof of things but stated that generally they liked to put bigger players against the best, and Watson was quite small so that wasn't his usual role. Lastly, I asked "I read that the 7 New York hockey writers unanimously voted you the Rangers' MVP of the playoffs in 1950. Were you aware of this?" and he replied that he was aware, and that they actually presented him with a silver bowl that was inscribed to him as the MVP.

Lunch was next, and I was fortunate that Bones sat at an open spot close to me. He and Morris Mott spoke a lot while I listened. I heard him tell a story about Maurice Richard. the habs were ahead late in the game, Richard had the puck at his own goal line, and without looking, threw it blindly back, all the way down the ice, right into the vacated New York net for the insurance goal. Bones skted by him and said "richard, you lucky so-and-so", and Richard laughed and said "I'd rather be lucky than good!" Amanda wants me to be sure to mention that at this point, Don noticed that there was pie across the room but didnt want to walk all the way to get it, and Amanda went and got him a piece. Morris then presented to Raleigh, as appreciation for joining us, his choice of these McFarlane figurines, still sealed. He said "you have a choice between red Howe, white Howe, or Richard." Without hesitation, Raleigh chose Richard. then an opportunity came up to go to a Memorial cup game and sit with Raleigh, plus he needed a ride back to Winnipeg. I was ready to do both, but a) I'd have missed all the afternoon presentations that I came for, and b) I'd have been unable to resist asking Raleigh queston after question, to the point of annoyance. So someone else spoke up.

Prior to Bones leaving, he took some pictures with some guys and signed autographs. I asked for a picture, and while posing, I asked him, "I noticed you selected Maurice Richard over Howe pretty quickly. How come?" and he gave a story about how years after their careers were over, richard was given the order of Canada along with a friend of Raleigh's family and Richard spoke highly of him even then, so he has a warm spot in his heart for Richard. When asked about them as players and who was better (the inevitable question", He replied "Let me pue it this way" - (a dodging tactic that nearly everyone from the era will use, and I of course don't hold it against him) - "Richard was interested in one thing - scoring goals, and nothing else. Howe was interested in scoring goals and taking care of himself too". So, since this was likely the only chance of my life to ask someone of this stature such a question, I pressed further, "could I interpret that as saying that Richard was not very good defensively?" and he again said "let me put it this way - If I'm a coach, and I have a guy who can score goals like that, I let him go score goals, and worry about defense later." So you could say that the answeres were inconclusive, but reading between the lines I think it's safe to say he feels Howe was better/more valuable, and that Richard wasn't much of a backchecker (but that we shouldn't hold it against him, which I don't, unless he's being compared to a Beliveau or Hull or Mikita)

the afternoon presentations were interesting and varied. There was a great presentation on the career and life of Frank Fredrickson, and another on Glen Hanlon (the presentations were chosen to have a distinct Brandon/Manitoba flavour - note that Ranford, Hextall, and Broda all came from Brandon - and all were Smythe winners!) But the highlight was a presentation on an old stick that a member had aquired. he traced the family lineage of the stick's owners and involved a couple science experts, to determine the age of the wood and the composition of the paints used (there were 4 layers in varying conditions) - it was determined that, through the rings in the wood at the butt of the stick, they could analyze growth patterns (based on thick and thin rings) and compare to similar trees in similar areas to determine when the tree was cut down. Ultimately, it was between 1835 and 1838. And the four layers of paint were consistent with the paints used over the years. It was fascinating stuff.

Later, at dinner, I had a chance to ask Morris Mott for his opinions on a lot of old players, which I'll post later tonight. Morris is a very unique case, as he is one of very few players I can ask about international stars (as he played for team Canada under David Bauer) and about NHL playerd (as he played 3 NHL seasons) - It was deadly info, and he even gave me the name of a teammate of his who is retired in Regina and would love to talk about that stuff.

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05-16-2010, 06:41 PM
  #324
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Great stuff.

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"Richard was interested in one thing - scoring goals, and nothing else. Howe was interested in scoring goals and taking care of himself too". So, since this was likely the only chance of my life to ask someone of this stature such a question, I pressed further, "could I interpret that as saying that Richard was not very good defensively?" and he again said "let me put it this way - If I'm a coach, and I have a guy who can score goals like that, I let him go score goals, and worry about defense later."

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05-16-2010, 06:50 PM
  #325
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Thanks for sharing seventies, I enjoyed reading that.

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