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should we shoot for Mikhail Grabovski?

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Old
04-20-2010, 11:07 PM
  #26
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He is a mix between Sergei and Andrei Kostitsyn with less skill and a worse attitude.

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04-20-2010, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
He is a mix between Sergei and Andrei Kostitsyn with less skill and a worse attitude.
Yea, and you would imagine him and Torts get along right?

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04-20-2010, 11:11 PM
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Yea, and you would imagine him and Torts get along right?
Of course, isn't that a "Torts" player. Disrespectful, not always there mentally, takes dumb penalties, lackadaisical. Sounds spot on for our coach

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04-20-2010, 11:12 PM
  #29
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He's mediocre. He doesn't suck. He's not that good. I don't want another project. We're already mired in mediocrity.
What do you consider mediocre? I don't understand? Obviously he's not an elite top end talent.

So if someone isn't a top tier talent he's automatically mediocre?

So by your definition 80-85% of team rosters are mediocre b/c they dont have the Kovlachuks, Malkin's etc? That's comical.

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04-20-2010, 11:20 PM
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I'll trade Redden for Grabovski. Boy, oh boy, does he have a perfect last name if he doesn't pan out?

I suppose "mediocre" is someone who's not obviously a star/elite, not as terrible as say, Brashear, but not good either. I think Avery was very mediocre this season. Another example is Brian Boyle, or Tom Poti when he was with us. Even Zherdev was mostly mediocre last season. An example of a NOT mediocre player is Callahan. He has limited skill, but he's a good player. Smart and tenacious.

Well, may be Brian Boyle is "terrible".

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04-20-2010, 11:37 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Nemchinov13 View Post
I'll trade Redden for Grabovski. Boy, oh boy, does he have a perfect last name if he doesn't pan out?

I suppose "mediocre" is someone who's not obviously a star/elite, not as terrible as say, Brashear, but not good either. I think Avery was very mediocre this season. Another example is Brian Boyle, or Tom Poti when he was with us. Even Zherdev was mostly mediocre last season. An example of a NOT mediocre player is Callahan. He has limited skill, but he's a good player. Smart and tenacious.

Well, may be Brian Boyle is "terrible".
Yeah, with that I agree. But, do you think it's fair to claim Grabovski is mediocre?You think Zherdev was medicore when he played w/ the Rangers? It's a term that should be used in general to describe a teams position(standings, etc) over the years. It's not something that should be used to describe individual players , I don't think. It's a matter of having the right fit for the player. If you have players in positions they shouldn't be in (christensen number 1 center, Callahan top 2 line minutes, Parenteau your best shootout player, etc)it creates for a medicore team. It's not necessarily the individual, rather I think it's the position you put the individual that would affect your teams status of being mediocre or not.

Look at Phoenix. They don't have any real elite player that stands out.They have a bunch of good players. They have a balanced line-up, and they have been sucessful. Should those players be consdiered mediocre? Not at all, because they're being used correctly.

What a player like Grabovski or Zherdev can do for us is provide depth and balance in terms of scoring. It's what this team lacks and anything that improves the balance and depth of our scoring, i'd be welcome to have as long as it's $$ friendly & not a true scrub.

These guys aren't even my targets for the off-season. I'm just explaining that I'm neutral when it comes to adding talented players, especially to our team.
My players for the off-season are Aasen, Plekanec, Volchenkov, and Jagr. You probably can't get all, but 2 or more fo the 4 is ok with me.

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04-20-2010, 11:52 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by hpNYR View Post
Yeah, with that I agree. But, do you think it's fair to claim Grabovski is mediocre?You think Zherdev was medicore when he played w/ the Rangers? It's a term that should be used in general to describe a teams position(standings, etc) over the years. It's not something that should be used to describe individual players , I don't think. It's a matter of having the right fit for the player. If you have players in positions they shouldn't be in (christensen number 1 center, Callahan top 2 line minutes, Parenteau your best shootout player, etc)it creates for a medicore team. It's not necessarily the individual, rather I think it's the position you put the individual that would affect your teams status of being mediocre or not.

Look at Phoenix. They don't have any real elite player that stands out.They have a bunch of good players. They have a balanced line-up, and they have been sucessful. Should those players be consdiered mediocre? Not at all, because they're being used correctly.
What a player like Grabovski or Zherdev can do for us is provide depth and balance in terms of scoring. It's what this team lacks and anything that improves the balance and depth of our scoring, i'd be welcome to have as long as it's $$ friendly & not a true scrub.
I do disagree with you on your opinion of using term "mediocre". I believe that mediocre teams are being made up of mediocre personnel. And the paragraph that I've bolded in your argument is a confirmation to my belief. As you have said it, Phoenix has a bunch of good players and no elite talent. It is indeed so. Limited skill, but plenty of hustle.

I do agree with you that we seriously lack skill and we do, indeed, need balance and secondary scoring. However, I disagree on personnel with you. I really think that Zherdev was mostly mediocre last season. He has lead the team in scoring, but a lot of times he has looked so disinterested and useless. However, he wasn't the only culprit. A lot of players were/are mediocre on the Rangers. It's easier to name a few good players: Gabby, Lundqvist (obviously), Cally, Staal, Prust. I have put Prust here because he's a smart player eventhough his skill is severely limited. What he knows how to use, he does it very well and in timely fashion. And he gives his entire effort to the task. Can't ask anything more.

It's just that guys like Zherdev and Grabovski, seemingly one-dimensional players are not what this organization needs. We need secondary scoring, but can we please have this secondary scorer play away from the puck too? I might be asking for too much, though.

Just my opinion.

Edit:

Forgive me, just saw that you're indifferent to Grabovski and Zherdev. FAIL=My Reading Comprehension.

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04-21-2010, 12:01 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Nemchinov13 View Post
I do disagree with you on your opinion of using term "mediocre". I believe that mediocre teams are being made up of mediocre personnel. And the paragraph that I've bolded in your argument is a confirmation to my belief. As you have said it, Phoenix has a bunch of good players and no elite talent. It is indeed so. Limited skill, but plenty of hustle.

I do agree with you that we seriously lack skill and we do, indeed, need balance and secondary scoring. However, I disagree on personnel with you. I really think that Zherdev was mostly mediocre last season. He has lead the team in scoring, but a lot of times he has looked so disinterested and useless. However, he wasn't the only culprit. A lot of players were/are mediocre on the Rangers. It's easier to name a few good players: Gabby, Lundqvist (obviously), Cally, Staal, Prust. I have put Prust here because he's a smart player eventhough his skill is severely limited. What he knows how to use, he does it very well and in timely fashion. And he gives his entire effort to the task. Can't ask anything more.

It's just that guys like Zherdev and Grabovski, seemingly one-dimensional players are not what this organization needs. We need secondary scoring, but can we please have this secondary scorer play away from the puck too? I might be asking for too much, though.

Just my opinion.
Nice post, and I agree with most of it. But here:

Erik Christensen on your first line OR Erik Christensen on your third line? What's more Mediocre? I'd say having him on the first line makes you a more mediocre team b/c you lack the personell and your forcing him into that role. You understand what I mean?

I guess it comes down to my view on Grabovski. He is what he is...an around 50+ point guy. Not sure why that has to mean he as an individual is mediocre? With the right support cast I think he can fit on a team.

If you said that for a guy who lacks defensive isntincts, he should produce more then 50 points; then I might agree.

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04-21-2010, 12:22 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by hpNYR View Post
Nice post, and I agree with most of it. But here:

Erik Christensen on your first line OR Erik Christensen on your third line? What's more Mediocre? I'd say having him on the first line makes you a more mediocre team b/c you lack the personell and your forcing him into that role. You understand what I mean?

I guess it comes down to my view on Grabovski. He is what he is...an around 50+ point guy. Not sure why that has to mean he as an individual is mediocre? With the right support cast I think he can fit on a team.

If you said that for a guy who lacks defensive isntincts, he should produce more then 50 points; then I might agree.
In the perfect world I would rather not have EC at all. He's exactly that mediocre player that I fear. If he cannot play on top 6, he's useless on the bottom 6. But since this is the Ranger world (a world where we are cap-strapped and our top prospects are at least 2 years away) and the fact that EC has shown ability to play with Gabby, he gets the nod to play on the 1st line. And yes, you are correct, sir, this does make us a mediocre team.

I can't explain how I can judge players "mediocre." But I'll try. Team Russia was absolutely mediocre. It had a lot of skill, but not much else. Canada and the US, on the other hand, were great teams. All players were good. There was a ton of skill, but more importantly, a lot of hockey smarts and a lot of hustle. All players were COMPLETE players. And that's what it comes down to for me: I'd have an offensively-limited player, but who is superb in the rest of the facets of the game, rather than an offensively gifted, but lacking in everything else (and that includes passion).

Of course, having a perfect 3rd liner that is Cally on the 2nd line makes our team mediocre and at the same time I would rather not have a floater like Zherdev. Oh, the paradox!

The only solution is to draft well.

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04-21-2010, 12:28 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Nemchinov13 View Post
In the perfect world I would rather not have EC at all. He's exactly that mediocre player that I fear. If he cannot play on top 6, he's useless on the bottom 6. But since this is the Ranger world (a world where we are cap-strapped and our top prospects are at least 2 years away) and the fact that EC has shown ability to play with Gabby, he gets the nod to play on the 1st line. And yes, you are correct, sir, this does make us a mediocre team.

I can't explain how I can judge players "mediocre." But I'll try. Team Russia was absolutely mediocre. It had a lot of skill, but not much else. Canada and the US, on the other hand, were great teams. All players were good. There was a ton of skill, but more importantly, a lot of hockey smarts and a lot of hustle. All players were COMPLETE players. And that's what it comes down to for me: I'd have an offensively-limited player, but who is superb in the rest of the facets of the game, rather than an offensively gifted, but lacking in everything else (and that includes passion).

Of course, having a perfect 3rd liner that is Cally on the 2nd line makes our team mediocre and at the same time I would rather not have a floater like Zherdev. Oh, the paradox!

The only solution is to draft well.
I really enjoyed reading that. Great stuff. I agree with that terminology, I just wanted to have it cleared up b/c that term has been used way too much recently.

Hey, not all Russians are like that though. Pavel Datsyuk is as complete as they come in this league

He's a top 5 player in this league IMO. I'm sure you love the guy, being that you're Russian.

EDIT: Also, I think Russia has too many players who want the puck on their stick, and not many players who are willing to dsitribute that puck. Many guys who want to "do it themselves"

They are players who would mesh well with a right mix of NA's, Swedes, Fin's etc on a NHL club, but when it comes to international play they tend to not mix well b/c there are too many players w/ similar style.


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04-21-2010, 01:15 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by hpNYR View Post
I really enjoyed reading that. Great stuff. I agree with that terminology, I just wanted to have it cleared up b/c that term has been used way too much recently.

Hey, not all Russians are like that though. Pavel Datsyuk is as complete as they come in this league

He's a top 5 player in this league IMO. I'm sure you love the guy, being that you're Russian.

EDIT: Also, I think Russia has too many players who want the puck on their stick, and not many players who are willing to dsitribute that puck. Many guys who want to "do it themselves"

They are players who would mesh well with a right mix of NA's, Swedes, Fin's etc on a NHL club, but when it comes to international play they tend to not mix well b/c there are too many players w/ similar style.
Thank you for the kind words, good sir.

One of the great Russians (I forgot who it was - one of Tretiak, Fetisov, Larionov) has said these golden words:
In Canada (and it definitely applies to the US) they teach kids to win first and foremost and only then the skills, and in Russia they teach kids skills first and winning after that.

Therein lies the problem. It's visible in Anisimov (and in Tyutin to a degree). The kid has some skill and battles hard for the pucks and plays with determination and smartly, but he's not using his size to impose his will on lesser opponents. And I hate to bring up Zherdev again, but he's the typical product of that school of thought. A Canadian or an American or a Swede or a Finn with his skill would at least be a solid first-liner. Hopefully, in Anisimov's case, the more he stays with guys like Cally and Dubi and Prust, the more of their snarl will rub off of him and the more complete player he will become. For the good of all Ranger kind (and my national team)!

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04-21-2010, 01:17 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by hpNYR View Post
Nice post, and I agree with most of it. But here:

Erik Christensen on your first line OR Erik Christensen on your third line? What's more Mediocre? I'd say having him on the first line makes you a more mediocre team b/c you lack the personell and your forcing him into that role. You understand what I mean?

I guess it comes down to my view on Grabovski. He is what he is...an around 50+ point guy. Not sure why that has to mean he as an individual is mediocre? With the right support cast I think he can fit on a team.

If you said that for a guy who lacks defensive isntincts, he should produce more then 50 points; then I might agree.
Players like Grabovski are mediocre because their 50 points are not worth the many flaws their respective games bring to their respective teams.

Every player on your team is filling a role. There are 29 other guys filling that role across the league, and you want to have as many of those roles filled with one of the best guys, not one of the worst. The teams that do that are almost always the best teams.

Grabovski has a multitude of ugly sides, far more than Zherdev. I'd take Zherdev on his team, because if he's filling the right role, he IS one of the better players in the league at it. Grabovski will never be.

There's the problem with your outlook, IMO. Why would you want Plekanec? It's repeating the Gomez and Drury mistake. Grabovski is LOLli Jokinen, round 2. Why do you want a 38 year old Jagr on this team? What purpose does that serve? What role is he going to fill?

Volchenkov is undoubtedly one of the best defensive defensemen in the league, but players like that who bring as little offensively as he does, should not get paid more than 4.5 million a season at current rates. He will be paid more than that, and with our cap situation, we can't even afford 4.5, much less 5 or 5.5 as I expect he'll receive.

Volchenkov reminds me of Drury in the sense that I LOVE Drury, always have, but not enough that I wanted him on my team for 7 mill a season. I was totally against that move, despite my love for the player. If I could eliminate his contract from the team (thus eliminating him) I would do it instantly, even though he's probably my third favorite player on the team after Henke and Cally. I'd love Volchenkov on this team, but it's not a smart move. If you get rid of Rozsival, then maybe.

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04-21-2010, 02:37 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Nemchinov13 View Post
Thank you for the kind words, good sir.

One of the great Russians (I forgot who it was - one of Tretiak, Fetisov, Larionov) has said these golden words:
In Canada (and it definitely applies to the US) they teach kids to win first and foremost and only then the skills, and in Russia they teach kids skills first and winning after that.

Therein lies the problem. It's visible in Anisimov (and in Tyutin to a degree). The kid has some skill and battles hard for the pucks and plays with determination and smartly, but he's not using his size to impose his will on lesser opponents. And I hate to bring up Zherdev again, but he's the typical product of that school of thought. A Canadian or an American or a Swede or a Finn with his skill would at least be a solid first-liner. Hopefully, in Anisimov's case, the more he stays with guys like Cally and Dubi and Prust, the more of their snarl will rub off of him and the more complete player he will become. For the good of all Ranger kind (and my national team)!
Very informative posts. You should post more often. After you mentioned that quote I tried to to do research to see who it was that said that. If I had to guess it would probably be Larionov or Fetisov, if it's between those 3 names.

I really want to find out. If anyone finds out please do let me know.

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04-21-2010, 02:43 PM
  #39
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i'm not sure what it would take to get Grabovski to be honest. i think the Leafs would like to get back what they paid to get him, at least...meaning a 2nd rd pick. a small salary dump may be included depending on the team that wants him.

for some reason i always imagined him playing in Phoenix, Atlanta or Nashville.

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04-21-2010, 03:04 PM
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What does Grabovski bring that would make this team better? Nothing really. Pass.

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04-21-2010, 03:06 PM
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For some reason every time i read the title of this thread I see "should we shoot Mikhail Grabovski" completely skipping the 'for' in there.

Anyways back on topic. No, he wouldn't fit in here on this team with Tortorella.

As long as Torts is here players like Zherdev and Grabovski won't be.

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04-21-2010, 03:13 PM
  #42
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Maybe he just needs a change of scenery
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04-21-2010, 03:25 PM
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For some reason every time i read the title of this thread I see "should we shoot Mikhail Grabovski" completely skipping the 'for' in there.

Anyways back on topic. No, he wouldn't fit in here on this team with Tortorella.

As long as Torts is here players like Zherdev and Grabovski won't be.
Better that than give up assets for him.

Seriously though, Grabovski does nothing for us.

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04-21-2010, 04:21 PM
  #44
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Of course, isn't that a "Torts" player. Disrespectful, not always there mentally, takes dumb penalties, lackadaisical. Sounds spot on for our coach
10 pims in 59 games, thats tons of dumb penalties!

I like Grabo, but as was said earlier, he seems to take nights off. When he's on he's an effective player, could shoot more though.

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04-21-2010, 04:28 PM
  #45
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Yeah, with that I agree. But, do you think it's fair to claim Grabovski is mediocre?You think Zherdev was medicore when he played w/ the Rangers? It's a term that should be used in general to describe a teams position(standings, etc) over the years. It's not something that should be used to describe individual players , I don't think. It's a matter of having the right fit for the player. If you have players in positions they shouldn't be in (christensen number 1 center, Callahan top 2 line minutes, Parenteau your best shootout player, etc)it creates for a medicore team. It's not necessarily the individual, rather I think it's the position you put the individual that would affect your teams status of being mediocre or not.

Look at Phoenix. They don't have any real elite player that stands out.They have a bunch of good players. They have a balanced line-up, and they have been sucessful. Should those players be consdiered mediocre? Not at all, because they're being used correctly.

What a player like Grabovski or Zherdev can do for us is provide depth and balance in terms of scoring. It's what this team lacks and anything that improves the balance and depth of our scoring, i'd be welcome to have as long as it's $$ friendly & not a true scrub.

These guys aren't even my targets for the off-season. I'm just explaining that I'm neutral when it comes to adding talented players, especially to our team.
My players for the off-season are Aasen, Plekanec, Volchenkov, and Jagr. You probably can't get all, but 2 or more fo the 4 is ok with me.
I agree 100%.

We don't have anyone like Gabrovski.

Can he become our Zach Parise?

No way no how ever.

But he could be our "Andy McDonald".

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04-21-2010, 04:46 PM
  #46
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I agree 100%.

We don't have anyone like Gabrovski.

Can he become our Zach Parise?

No way no how ever.

But he could be our "Andy McDonald".
Exactly!! Which is why I'm neutral about adding someone like him. That's what I have been trying to get at.

You can say he's mediocre all you want, but he provides something we lack right now. It all depends on the price and what we give up.

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04-21-2010, 05:45 PM
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Hes not a bad player, i mean i watch TO a lot and well last year he was hurt for a large portion of the season, so i didnt get to see him all that much. What i will say is he has a good jump, plays with pretty good emotion, and has good stickhandling abilities and can see the ice well. The only thing i am worried with him is that he tends to carry an attitude and is inconsistent which could pose problems in the locker room. He has gotten in two fights in practice in Toronto, with Beuch, and Blake, and remember him with the Kostisyns bros. I think he might be worth the risk as long, as we do not sign guys like Christ or Prospal because if you want Graboski hes the type of player that needs to be in the top 6 to flourish.

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04-21-2010, 05:51 PM
  #48
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I feel like Toronto just goes through guys like this constantly...guys they tout as being the second coming of Wendel Clark, who never live up to expectation...Steen, Stajan, Stempniak, Wellwood...the list goes on. There is literally not a player on Toronto I would touch except for Kessel, Kadri, Schenn and to a lesser extent, Stahlberg (but he could be the next ridiculously overrated farm guy)...aside from that, if you played for Toronto, it's like you've been poisoned or something.
Funny someone says that when you look at Antropov and how well he did when he came here from Toronto. I think you've got it completely wrong guys who come from Toronto usually do better on different teams. Poni on Pitt has been playing really solid hockey. Not to mention Stepniak who scored 12 goals in 12 games with Phx and had like 18 points, ya hes really done much worse. Dont look at Calgary their just a horrible team. Its a tough and pressurful enviroment with the media that why sometimes guys who leave have less wieght on their shoulders and perform better. Not to say that will happen with Grabs but hes got some potential that we shouldint look pass. I mean honestly i would prob take him over a guy like Plekanec from Mon.

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