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04-22-2010, 11:39 AM
  #1
HockeyinHD
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Ha! Ha, ha, HA!

http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/s...tml?id=2938201

"I'll be honest. It was doubtful whether he could play in the NHL," said Jimmy Devellano, a long-time executive with the Red Wings. "We believe in trying to give everybody maximum time to develop, because obviously when we drafted them we saw something in them. And we try not to rush development.

"But I would say Jimmy Howard took it to the extreme, because generally after four years you really should know. You really should. But we didn't."

So, essentially, all the people who took shots at me, or at Gare Joyce, or at any of the minority of people who expressed doubts about Howard, or that the Wings themselves had doubts about Howard, the above quote serves as your...


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04-22-2010, 11:49 AM
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There were people who had complete confidence in Howard before this season even began?

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04-22-2010, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
http://www.nationalpost.com/sports/s...tml?id=2938201

"I'll be honest. It was doubtful whether he could play in the NHL," said Jimmy Devellano, a long-time executive with the Red Wings. "We believe in trying to give everybody maximum time to develop, because obviously when we drafted them we saw something in them. And we try not to rush development.

"But I would say Jimmy Howard took it to the extreme, because generally after four years you really should know. You really should. But we didn't."

So, essentially, all the people who took shots at me, or at Gare Joyce, or at any of the minority of people who expressed doubts about Howard, or that the Wings themselves had doubts about Howard, the above quote serves as your...

Are you in a funny mood?

Myers, Duchene, Howard named Calder finalists


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04-22-2010, 11:55 AM
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HockeyinHD
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There were people who had complete confidence in Howard before this season even began?
There were one or two, but mostly it was the usual run of the mill lashing out at someone who doesn't gush wildly over the flavor of the month Wings young player, and how dumb and/or negative guys like Joyce or I were being because, DUH!, obviously the Wings had all kinds of confidence in Howard, that they drafted McCollum was just a meaningless coincidence, etc.

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04-22-2010, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by TOPGUN View Post
Based on what he did this year he absolutely deserves it, IMO. My point months ago was that it was extremely unlikely to a) expect Howard to play that well at all or to b) expect him to play that well for the whole season.

But that's the story of the Wings 2010 year so far. Jimmy Howard shattering expectations and being fantastic when even the organization itself didn't know if he had it in him.

Well, that and the whole team experiencing injuries like I've never seen.

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04-22-2010, 11:59 AM
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I think he surpassed just about everybody's expectations, except Z40's.


Is it just me, or is the brass getting weak with player projections?

Keeping Cheli over Quincey.

Letting a 30 G scorer leave so they could have a midget and an overpaid third line center?

Giving Drapes and Ozzie 3 yr contracts when they're CLEARLY waaaaay past 35 yrs of age-- and their best years.

Bringing back JWil.


Holy crap.

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04-22-2010, 12:00 PM
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Of course there were doubts, anyone who denied it then or denies it now is lying. But they've been silenced.

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Holy crap.
Don't crucify me for it... but I think it's close to time for the Wings to give Nil or Yzerman a shot as GM. I worry that we're getting to the point where we're clinging to a bygone era desperately like the Oilers.

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04-22-2010, 12:03 PM
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HockeyinHD
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I think he surpassed just about everybody's expectations, except Z40's.

Is it just me, or is the brass getting weak with player projections?

Keeping Cheli over Quincey.
They kept Cheli, Meech, Lebda and Lilja over Quincey. I still don't think they were wrong, either.

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Letting a 30 G scorer leave so they could have a midget and an overpaid third line center?
I don't know if the Sammy/Hudler thing is going to come back to bite them or not, though. As long as the team can get something decent for Hudler if they have to move him, no real harm done.

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Giving Drapes and Ozzie 3 yr contracts when they're CLEARLY waaaaay past 35 yrs of age-- and their best years.
On it's face, the Draper deal is a bad one. When you consider it was more of a lifetime achievement award, it's not.

Complaining about the Ozzie deal is totally nuts, though. The guy won a Cup playing brilliantly and got to game 7 of another one playing brilliantly. The deal was really, really good. Heck, it still is unless he's completely, totally shot as a player... and even then it just goes to 'okay'.

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Bringing back JWil.
JWill was a flyer they almost had to take after Hudler screwed them.

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04-22-2010, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
Of course there were doubts, anyone who denied it then or denies it now is lying. But they've been silenced.



Don't crucify me for it... but I think it's close to time for the Wings to give Nil or Yzerman a shot as GM. I worry that we're getting to the point where we're clinging to a bygone era desperately like the Oilers.


It's a legit question.

You think it's Holland and JimmyD that are not adjusting to the new system then? (Any specifics?)

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04-22-2010, 12:06 PM
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"It was really [coach] Mike Babcock who said we're going to go with Howard and see if he can play goal," Devellano said. "If he can't play goal, then he can't play goal. It won't be pretty. But at least we'll know."
Nice decision.

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04-22-2010, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
It's a legit question.

You think it's Holland and JimmyD that are not adjusting to the new system then? (Any specifics?)
Yes obviously if not every decision works out to the fullest extent its time to get rid of the entire braintrust.

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04-22-2010, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
They kept Cheli, Meech, Lebda and Lilja over Quincey. I still don't think they were wrong, either.
Cheli was absolutely the wrong choice, ESPECIALLY in a cap era. He took up $250K more cap space for starters.....

Look at this way.... Lebda, Q, Meech would have taken ~$1.6m of cap space.

Cheli, Meech, Lebda + Lilja = $3.13m.

Hey, when you can't keep Sammy because of an extra million bucks....

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I don't know if the Sammy/Hudler thing is going to come back to bite them or not, though. As long as the team can get something decent for Hudler if they have to move him, no real harm done.
Well, under Babs' system + injury year, I still don't think Sammy could get anywhere near 30G. When Datsyuk has a hard time getting 30G, I just don't see how Sammy could do better.


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On it's face, the Draper deal is a bad one. When you consider it was more of a lifetime achievement award, it's not.
Should have been year-to-year, or two year MAX. It's not Holland's fault the CBA has that crap in it, but he sure as hell should have drawn the line.

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Complaining about the Ozzie deal is totally nuts, though. The guy won a Cup playing brilliantly and got to game 7 of another one playing brilliantly. The deal was really, really good. Heck, it still is unless he's completely, totally shot as a player... and even then it just goes to 'okay'.
Again, not in a cap system that has draconian clauses linked to player age. Holland could have promised Ozzie a deal every year for three years, but if he's injured, unable to play, chooses to retire, etc. etc., the team doesn't have to live with the cap implication.


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JWill was a flyer they almost had to take after Hudler screwed them.
Were no other flyers available? This was was almost--- almost -- as bad as considering Belfour.

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04-22-2010, 12:21 PM
  #13
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^^^ Further to that...

Leino? That was a bigger swing/miss than JWil.

Was AppleGator THAT much worse?

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04-22-2010, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Yes obviously if not every decision works out to the fullest extent its time to get rid of the entire braintrust.

Who said get rid of the entire braintrust? Poster thinks he sees something about Holland's (or maybe JimmyD's) assessments.

Is it them? What are the specifics?

Obviously, you disagree, which is fine too.

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04-22-2010, 12:31 PM
  #15
Heaton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Who said get rid of the entire braintrust? Poster thinks he sees something about Holland's (or maybe JimmyD's) assessments.

Is it them? What are the specifics?

Obviously, you disagree, which is fine too.
The indiscretions that you're bringing up are mere blips on the radar screen. They're borderline inconsequential.

And who said the entire braintrust? I don't think people are paying close enough attention to how things are run in the Detroit office. This isn't a one-man show, this is an entire committee. So saying we need someone else to be GM is basically saying that the entire committee needs to go.

What exactly is the problem here? First of all Quincey is obviously the biggest GRAVE mistake that Holland has made. I mean ****, a guy who is a #4 defensemen at best and Holland has been crucified over it. People have no clue if he would've ever amounted to anything in Detroit since his opportunity may have never come since he wasn't very good here but since we see him putting up some points it's such an easy 'Gotcha!' moment. I can only imagine if he actually made some real mistakes like some other GM's do.

Then the Draper signing was obviously misguided but what is that make or breaking? And the Osgood contract, well we knew we needed an 'Osgood' for 3 more years, what's the difference? He wouldn't be here next year because he struggled this year? Please.

Hudler v. Samuelsson? He chose the younger, more offensive guy and let Samuelsson go. I would've liked to see Samuelsson stay but he went with the guy who he hopes will end up getting more bang for his buck.

To me, saying Holland or Jimmy D isn't adjusting is ****ing hilarious. The Wings are the LAST team to be seriously hit by the cap. FOUR years after the cap was implemented. After more success than anyone. Oh yeah, that's a really legit question to ask.

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04-22-2010, 12:36 PM
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Brodie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
It's a legit question.

You think it's Holland and JimmyD that are not adjusting to the new system then? (Any specifics?)
Deals like the Draper and Ozzie deals, as well as keeping Cheli over Q, worry me. How long is this team going to keep Cleary around past his usefulness, for example? I think it's becoming a legitimate question.

I don't want Holland and Jimmy D fired... maybe shifted to give Nil or Stevie a chance. To be honest, I'd rather not lose one of them.

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04-22-2010, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
They kept Cheli, Meech, Lebda and Lilja over Quincey. I still don't think they were wrong, either.
Meech is still worthless. You can (and do, I know) try to argue that Quincey is just as worthless as Meech and so it was a zero-sum move either way, but you can't argue that Meech is worth a damn because he's been given plenty of opportunities to prove it and he hasn't.

Personally I hope they try to send him to GR next season and save the cap hit for a deadline acquisition. Worst case scenario, they lose him on waivers and some other team gets a mediocre (at best) smurf 6th defenseman for free.

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04-22-2010, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
Deals like the Draper and Ozzie deals, as well as keeping Cheli over Q, worry me. How long is this team going to keep Cleary around past his usefulness, for example? I think it's becoming a legitimate question.

I don't want Holland and Jimmy D fired... maybe shifted to give Nil or Stevie a chance. To be honest, I'd rather not lose one of them.
Why do you think Nill or Yzerman would've made different decisions?

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04-22-2010, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Why do you think Nill or Yzerman would've made different decisions?
I don't know what they would have done, obviously. I just think it's better to keep things fresh... it's how this team was built in the first place. If they had done any one of those things differently, things might have worked out a bit better for us, no?

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04-22-2010, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
I don't know what they would have done, obviously. I just think it's better to keep things fresh... it's how this team was built in the first place. If they had done any one of those things differently, things might have worked out a bit better for us, no?
I just don't know how to even respond. You're basically saying giving out 2 borderline contracts and waiving a guy who couldn't beat out anyone in any training camp is enough to warrant a change at GM. I mean, if this team weren't injured and won another Central division title would this even be talked about?

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04-22-2010, 12:56 PM
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What did Leino do to deserve a guaranteed roster spot? Combine his $800K + JWil's $1.5m.....


Does make me believe Sammy was ready to move on though.

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04-22-2010, 12:57 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
What did Leino do to deserve a guaranteed roster spot? Combine his $800K + JWil's $1.5m.....


Does make me believe Sammy was ready to move on though.
What did Quincey do to deserve a guaranteed roster spot?

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04-22-2010, 01:04 PM
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Sammy wouldnt even get anywhere close to 30 goals if he was still playing here at bottom 6. He wasn't going to get that shot here and he had to let go. It is NOT arguable.

Maybe Chelios had a great lockerroom presence and it helped the team going to SC final back to back.. maybe maybe not. But Quincey wouldnt be playing as top 4 in our D right now and as a bottom pair.. does it really make difference? who would Quincey replace in our D right now? Ericsson? I remember not one people here were gonna trade Ericsson over Quincey back then.

Draper also brings a positive presence in lockerroom. You don't think he get 'A' just because he played here long enough do you?

Ozzie was playing real solid and was top ranked goalie that season.. and won SC that year. yup should have let him go... because we obviously foresaw he would decline like this.

Clearly has been playing well. Maybe he's not turning it upside down right now but he was great last playoffs and he just earned his time on top 6.

Jwill... well... he sucks.

since 2007, Drake, Stuart, Hossa, Eaves, Howard, Miller and Bertuzz.. geez I guess it's time for a GM change because 10 consecutive 100pts season and 19 or whatever consecutive playoff isnt obviously enough for some people.


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04-22-2010, 01:07 PM
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What did Quincey do to deserve a guaranteed roster spot?
Beside his stint back in 07 playoffs, he failed at every chance he's been given.

GMs should be able to look past that.

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04-22-2010, 01:08 PM
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What did Quincey do to deserve a guaranteed roster spot?

Play extremely well in the playoffs-- when it counted. Plus, he was young, large, healthy and begging for an opportunity given to all the other guys we're discussing just not him.




The real point, which I was about to post and preface by saying, "Before Heater gets all excited....."



There are two MAJOR but contradictory points. There is a salary cap + CBA that tries to force teams to avoid commitment to 35+ yo vets. The key to team building is recognizing a small nucleus of your best players (the core, if you will), and then rotating in mostly younger, RFA players whilst they're still cheap. Maybe you have a spot for a wily veteran who is at the end of his career (Drake or Draper, for example, but for not much money).

There are salary bands--- you can only have X amount in the top tier, you must have several spots that are $1m or much less (league minimum or close to it). No matter how you massage the numbers, you will be limited.... adding term has its limits too.

Growth in revenues = some cap growth, so that allows a little bit of leeway, but the double digit growth is gone, imo.

On the flip side, the Wings have a fundamental philosophy that builds around veterans as much as is humanly possible. They like to work rookies in very slowly (overripe being the mgt word of choice). They like to reward loyalty. However, in spite of all the talk of hometown discounts, this is rather misleading. We're talking about a 10% or so discount at best, with term added to make up for it.

What does term do? Well, it ages with players.... so you're locking yourself in to players who may be here longer and getting paid more than their current contribution (with regard to cap hit). It makes it much more difficult to rotate in younger/cheaper players at a sufficient rate UNLESS the cap is growing quickly enough to compensate for the commitment.

The Wings had the cap thing worked out until the cap stopped growing. This roster, which is not quite what we had for the past 3-4 yrs in terms of talent, is just as expensive as the most expensive up to this point.

That's the problem.

(Edit: I do think Holland is smart enough to solve the problem though. Need to add that, in spite of feeling it's okay to recognize there are some problems to solve.)

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