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Old
04-22-2010, 01:08 PM
  #26
Fugu
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Originally Posted by Yemack View Post
Beside his stint back in 07 playoffs, he failed at every chance he's been given.

GMs should be able to look past that.

Every chance? Name those chances.

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04-22-2010, 01:09 PM
  #27
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A) I had my doubts about Jimmy but felt he played well enough, after a terrible start, to continue earning more starts.
B) I don't think Jimmy is anywhere even near where his stats put him. Right now, I'd say he's an average NHL goalie.
C) A year ago, if you told me Jimmy was going to be an average NHL goalie, I;d have been happy with that.
D) I think Jimmy has room to get better with experience and become a good to very good NHL goalie. IF he works at it. But his development in the AHL wasn't exactly stellar, so maybe not.

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04-22-2010, 01:14 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
(Edit: I do think Holland is smart enough to solve the problem though. Need to add that, in spite of feeling it's okay to recognize there are some problems to solve.)
Fair enough. I never said they weren't problems, all I was saying is that it's making mountains out of molehills. These 'problems' aren't exactly hurting business. I'd much rather have these 'problems' than the other 29 teams problems.

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04-22-2010, 01:15 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Every chance? Name those chances.
my bad, he wasn't even given a chance before he got kicked out. Not.

I don't know but he knew he had to step up in preseason + training camp because everyone knew someone had to go due to Defence log jam. He didnt. He failed miserably. What would you have done? wait .. I know.. kick out Lebda.

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04-22-2010, 01:19 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I do think Holland is smart enough to solve the problem though. Need to add that, in spite of feeling it's okay to recognize there are some problems to solve.
c'mon fugu, it's not about solving the problem IMO. There are million problems everyday and there are no right wrong answers. They just have to make decision best they can while minimizing the worst cases.

They made more right than wrongs and the wrongs didn't really hurt this team IMO. That is A+ in my book.

ps: obviously the biggest test is how this team performs in playoff, they've done well so far and as for this season, we will see how it goes in next few month

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04-22-2010, 01:22 PM
  #31
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Why are we citing all these little details, Sammy, Quincey, Chelios, Ozzy, whoever, when it's easy peazy to look at results and clearly see that someone is doing something right? This year being the obvious outlier due to injuries (though we're tied in the first round of the playoffs so even now we can't call it failure), we have been by far the most successful team in the league in the cap era. Most recently we won a Cup and then lost in the Cup finals. And people are talking about changing the management? Whatever. It's obvious that we're in good shape.

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04-22-2010, 01:37 PM
  #32
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my bad, he wasn't even given a chance before he got kicked out. Not.

I don't know but he knew he had to step up in preseason + training camp because everyone knew someone had to go due to Defence log jam. He didnt. He failed miserably. What would you have done? wait .. I know.. kick out Lebda.
That's just it though. Everyone keeps saying he could win a roster spot in camp. Well..... was Holland going to be convinced in camp that he should cut Lilja (who he just extended) and Cheli (who he JUST signed in the summer).

We can debate this all we want, but there is no way in hell either of those two had anything on the line. This junk about training camp being enough to let a rookie beat out re-signed vets is bunk, imo.

Secondly, I think he was injured (back and wrist).

So.... that left Lebda (who had just helped the team win the Cup) and Meech. Clearly..... Q was much, much better than Meech. There's never been any ifs/ands/buts about that.

Furthermore, hindsight being 20/20..... Cheli never did do anything visible. Is the lockerroom issue sufficient enough to dump a 24 yo RFA signed to a cheal 3 yr deal, who was only going to get better? When Lilja did get injured, we all wished Q was around. What I won't get anyone here to admit is that this team went to the Cup final again without Lilja as well.

Kind should demonstrate that he wasn't critical, just like it was proven that Cheli wasn't needed.

So, from my perspective, the team blew $2m on players they didn't need.



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Originally Posted by Yemack View Post
c'mon fugu, it's not about solving the problem IMO. There are million problems everyday and there are no right wrong answers. They just have to make decision best they can while minimizing the worst cases.

They made more right than wrongs and the wrongs didn't really hurt this team IMO. That is A+ in my book.

ps: obviously the biggest test is how this team performs in playoff, they've done well so far and as for this season, we will see how it goes in next few month
I think some of the decisions made in the last 2-3 yrs have hurt the team. Of course, if they still manage to do well this playoff run, it may not matter who they have on the ice. The contracts and term handed out 1-2 yrs ago certainly affected what they could do this year.

What I AM saying is that for $56m, they did not retain all the best players that they could have, and part of that is due to loyalty contracts/vet preferences. In some ways, one vet costs you another (keeping Cheli, Lilja, Draper, Malts, Ozzie, etc. or RFA's like Fill and Hudler) and you lose Sammy, Hossa, Hudler (in spite of deciding to keep him), Quincey...... and you replace them with Leino and JWil.


Do you think that in every case, the best players were kept? That's all I'm saying. For similar amts - or more - money, the best talent wasn't retained.

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04-22-2010, 01:42 PM
  #33
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well.. really it's against my rule to voice my opinion against mod.. so I'll just stop here.

btw I just remembered Quincey playing back in 08 while we Lidstrom and Kronwall were out. He was a fish out of water. I think he was already under short leash before the training camp. As a matter of fact, Meech outplayed Quincey that year.

Who knows? maybe Meech will go to another organization and play lights out?

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04-22-2010, 01:55 PM
  #34
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Cheli was absolutely the wrong choice, ESPECIALLY in a cap era. He took up $250K more cap space for starters.....
You're wrong. The team kept Cheli because they needed another depth dman that could kill penalties. Lebda can't, Meech can't, and Quincey couldn't.

You completely missed this point when we spent a year talking about Lilja.
You completely missed this point when we've talked about Quincey.
And now you are completely missing this point when we're talking about Cheli.

It doesn't matter what the cap number in total is if you're essentially paying three guys to all serve the same function while not paying anybody to fill a function that needs someone. As illustrated by...

Quote:
Look at this way.... Lebda, Q, Meech would have taken ~$1.6m of cap space.
... this right here. Lebda, Q, and Meech are all well below average PKers. They are all average to below average offensive players. They are, at best, players who all serve the same role on a roster like Detroit's, that of 6/7th defensemen who aren't ever going to see any serious specialty teams time.

When Detroit brought in Stuart, and when they had E getting ready to come up, there was just no real reason to keep Quincey if he couldn't beat out Lebda or Meech... and apparently he couldn't.

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Well, under Babs' system + injury year, I still don't think Sammy could get anywhere near 30G. When Datsyuk has a hard time getting 30G, I just don't see how Sammy could do better.
I wasn't sad when Sammy left at the time, and I'm not sad he's gone now.

That doesn't mean I don't think he is a superior option to how things have shaken out, but at the time I think Holland was doing the best he could with the information at hand.

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Should have been year-to-year, or two year MAX. It's not Holland's fault the CBA has that crap in it, but he sure as hell should have drawn the line.
I think that's silly, especially in Draper's case. I'm not going to sit here and try and imply that every Wing player who stays for 6 years should get inflated exit deals... but for Draper? I absolutely will. You can whine about that being unnecessary loyalty until you are blue in the face and your fingers fall off if you want to, but I think it was the right thing to do then, I think it's the right thing to do now, and I think the next time Detroit has a guy play for them for damn near 1400 total games doing what Draper has done, I'll think slipping in an extra 300-400k a year for the last few years of his deal when he has been a bargain for his whole career is the right thing to do there, as well.

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Again, not in a cap system that has draconian clauses linked to player age. Holland could have promised Ozzie a deal every year for three years, but if he's injured, unable to play, chooses to retire, etc. etc., the team doesn't have to live with the cap implication.
For 5 million bucks over 4 years Detroit got a goalie who was elite in two straight playoffs, won a Cup, and damn near made it two.

If that's not enough of a deal for you, there's nothing I can do for ya.

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Were no other flyers available? This was was almost--- almost -- as bad as considering Belfour.
We need an eyeroll smiley.

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Old
04-22-2010, 02:02 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
So.... that left Lebda (who had just helped the team win the Cup) and Meech. Clearly..... Q was much, much better than Meech. There's never been any ifs/ands/buts about that.
Good lord.

Fugu, Quincey lost a training camp competition. If he was allegedly better than anybody, the team would have moved them instead of trying to move Q. You're just re-writing history here.

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Do you think that in every case, the best players were kept? That's all I'm saying. For similar amts - or more - money, the best talent wasn't retained.
And that's such an absurdly unreasonable standard of expectation, no wonder you're always whining about roster moves.

Quincey would be the behind everybody on the roster but Meech and Lebda, at best. Are Meech and Lebda playing? No? Ah. Seems kind of silly to whine about not keeping a guy who wouldn't be playing anyway.

And... well, never mind. As long as you're going to sit there and expect 100% decision-making perfection in the retention of talent, there's just going to be no pleasing you, and certainly no reasoning with you.

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04-22-2010, 02:37 PM
  #36
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And people are talking about changing the management? Whatever.
Name one.

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04-22-2010, 02:40 PM
  #37
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well.. really it's against my rule to voice my opinion against mod.. so I'll just stop here.

btw I just remembered Quincey playing back in 08 while we Lidstrom and Kronwall were out. He was a fish out of water. I think he was already under short leash before the training camp. As a matter of fact, Meech outplayed Quincey that year.

Who knows? maybe Meech will go to another organization and play lights out?

You can argue hockey matters with mods, global mods and admins all you like. That's not what the site rules are about. As long as people are civil to each other and stay on the topic of thread (not personal stuff, or belittling others, etc.), you're fine. I mean, look at HD-- not that that's whom you should emulate.



Sure, with Meech, it's possible. Unlikely, imo, but possible.

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04-22-2010, 02:42 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by SirKillalot View Post
Nice decision.
Decisions like that make me a bigger fan of Babcock. You need to gamble once in awhile to see what you've got.

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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
^^^ Further to that...

Leino? That was a bigger swing/miss than JWil.

Was AppleGator THAT much worse?
Leino was also half the price and movable. I never liked the Williams signing and would have much preferred Malhotra or Grier.

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Play extremely well in the playoffs-- when it counted. Plus, he was young, large, healthy and begging for an opportunity given to all the other guys we're discussing just not him.
He wasn't healthy, though, and he didn't use that body to the degree where it was a real asset. But I think the health issue was the biggest to the Wings. His back looked bad enough that Dallas pulled out of a trade for him. And he had concussion issues the previous year in GR that led to tentative play. I won't argue that Meech had done anything to separate himself from Quincey (he hadn't) but at least he had a track record of good health. For a guy looked at to be a purely depth player, they knew he could be counted on to be there and that was probably worth a lot to them.

However, I also agree, it was bad to re-sign Chelios though, again, understandable considering how underwhelming Meech/Quincey had been in GR the year before.

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04-22-2010, 02:46 PM
  #39
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Good lord.

Fugu, Quincey lost a training camp competition. If he was allegedly better than anybody, the team would have moved them instead of trying to move Q. You're just re-writing history here.

Utter bunk. There is no competition. The roster was set when the ink dried on the vet contracts. They didn't need to commit the money they did to the vets they retained (as hindsight proved beyond a shadow of a doubt).

And Meech over Q is just ridonkulous.

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04-22-2010, 02:51 PM
  #40
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You're wrong. The team kept Cheli because they needed another depth dman that could kill penalties. Lebda can't, Meech can't, and Quincey couldn't.

You completely missed this point when we spent a year talking about Lilja.
You completely missed this point when we've talked about Quincey.
And now you are completely missing this point when we're talking about Cheli.

It doesn't matter what the cap number in total is if you're essentially paying three guys to all serve the same function while not paying anybody to fill a function that needs someone. As illustrated by...



... this right here. Lebda, Q, and Meech are all well below average PKers. They are all average to below average offensive players. They are, at best, players who all serve the same role on a roster like Detroit's, that of 6/7th defensemen who aren't ever going to see any serious specialty teams time.

When Detroit brought in Stuart, and when they had E getting ready to come up, there was just no real reason to keep Quincey if he couldn't beat out Lebda or Meech... and apparently he couldn't.



I wasn't sad when Sammy left at the time, and I'm not sad he's gone now.

That doesn't mean I don't think he is a superior option to how things have shaken out, but at the time I think Holland was doing the best he could with the information at hand.



I think that's silly, especially in Draper's case. I'm not going to sit here and try and imply that every Wing player who stays for 6 years should get inflated exit deals... but for Draper? I absolutely will. You can whine about that being unnecessary loyalty until you are blue in the face and your fingers fall off if you want to, but I think it was the right thing to do then, I think it's the right thing to do now, and I think the next time Detroit has a guy play for them for damn near 1400 total games doing what Draper has done, I'll think slipping in an extra 300-400k a year for the last few years of his deal when he has been a bargain for his whole career is the right thing to do there, as well.



For 5 million bucks over 4 years Detroit got a goalie who was elite in two straight playoffs, won a Cup, and damn near made it two.

If that's not enough of a deal for you, there's nothing I can do for ya.



We need an eyeroll smiley.

Yes, Cheli and Lilja ending up doing a ton of PK time for the Wings. Cheli was benched in the 2008 Cup run, benched for the 2009 season, mostly, and Lilja wasn't even around.

That's my point. 2009 and 2010, neither guy ended up being a factor, necessary or even available. Just how critical were they then? Why not save that money and keep Sammy?

Yet look at how well the team did without them, and I will give Lilja credit for 2008 w/Lebda as his partner.

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04-22-2010, 02:54 PM
  #41
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Name one.
Brodie.

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04-22-2010, 03:04 PM
  #42
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Utter bunk. There is no competition. The roster was set when the ink dried on the vet contracts. They didn't need to commit the money they did to the vets they retained (as hindsight proved beyond a shadow of a doubt).

And Meech over Q is just ridonkulous.
Beyond a shadow of a doubt?

Oh geez. Quincey would have never gotten the opportunity to do what he did in LA or COL. The fact that he couldn't sway Kenny's decision to move him when competing against two players who apparently had nothing to play for even proves that.

But hey, lets use a 13 game sample size in the playoffs 3 years ago (Ericsson had a pretty solid playoff too last year) and some "solid" regular season performances to make him the worst decision that Holland ever made.

Man, if only we hadn't lost him. Just think of the possibilities!!!!

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04-22-2010, 04:04 PM
  #43
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Beyond a shadow of a doubt?

Oh geez. Quincey would have never gotten the opportunity to do what he did in LA or COL. The fact that he couldn't sway Kenny's decision to move him when competing against two players who apparently had nothing to play for even proves that.

But hey, lets use a 13 game sample size in the playoffs 3 years ago (Ericsson had a pretty solid playoff too last year) and some "solid" regular season performances to make him the worst decision that Holland ever made.

Man, if only we hadn't lost him. Just think of the possibilities!!!!
Sure he would. Lilja just sat out for nearly an entire season, plus two months of the previous one. Kronwall gets injured all the time. Rafalski has days off now and then.

The point is.... if you're one of the six D available, you WILL get playing time. Who took Lilja's spot when he got injured? Or when both Kronwall and Lils were out?


You don't address my point that training camp was supposed to be a proving ground. Roster was set long before that. Holland just played that to keep guys looking interested and hoped he could trade them. Mis-spent $2m in the process.

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04-22-2010, 04:16 PM
  #44
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Pretty good article for the fascist post! I'm really happy with Howards shutout, I got him in the pool! I still don't think he is a very talented goaltender, but the guy competes hard and seems to have mental toughness, or even testicular fortitude. Maybe that is all that matters, we have seen what Brodeur is worth once someone gets in his head.

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04-22-2010, 05:59 PM
  #45
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Utter bunk. There is no competition.
Like I said, you're re-writing history.

Fugu, at some point you're going to have to admit that Babcock doesn't play favorites. I mean, good God... he just benched a Stanley Cup winning goalie for the YEAR in favor of a freaking rookie. Playing time is not a function of veteran status.

He wasn't playing Chelios ahead of Lebda by the end of the year, either. The people who outperformed him, passed him.

Quote:
The roster was set when the ink dried on the vet contracts.
In your (hugely, HUGELY biased) opinion.

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They didn't need to commit the money they did to the vets they retained (as hindsight proved beyond a shadow of a doubt).
And they didn't need to retain Quincey either, as hindsight has proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

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And Meech over Q is just ridonkulous.
Well, maybe Q should have played better while he was here, then. That would have helped.

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04-22-2010, 06:01 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Name one.
My post was a response to:

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Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
Of course there were doubts, anyone who denied it then or denies it now is lying. But they've been silenced.



Don't crucify me for it... but I think it's close to time for the Wings to give Nil or Yzerman a shot as GM. I worry that we're getting to the point where we're clinging to a bygone era desperately like the Oilers.
My response was influenced by this one as well, though admittedly Fugu didn't go quite so far as to advocate a management change:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I think he surpassed just about everybody's expectations, except Z40's.


Is it just me, or is the brass getting weak with player projections?

Keeping Cheli over Quincey.

Letting a 30 G scorer leave so they could have a midget and an overpaid third line center?

Giving Drapes and Ozzie 3 yr contracts when they're CLEARLY waaaaay past 35 yrs of age-- and their best years.

Bringing back JWil.


Holy crap.
My point being that some of us make it sound like the franchise is crumbling around us, although in the past few years and excluding the current year as the injury outlier we have been in the best shape of any franchise. Of any sport. In any league. Ever.

Don't crucify me for exaggerating a little please.

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04-22-2010, 06:11 PM
  #47
HockeyinHD
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That's my point. 2009 and 2010, neither guy ended up being a factor, necessary or even available. Just how critical were they then? Why not save that money and keep Sammy? .
Because Sammy's not a defenseman, and I think it's borderline nuts to go into a year with only 6 NHL dmen on a roster.

Depth is a good thing, Fugu. Sometimes the Wings have too much depth and they have to cut loose a borderline guy like Quincey, just like this year they are going to have to cut loose another borderline dman, and maybe two.

Again, you just seem to be living in this fantasy land where Kyle Quincey was going to be anything but a depth scrub in Detroit. He just wasn't. Everybody ahead of him is either clearly better overall or clearly better at a specialized phase.

He wasn't playing ahead of Lidstrom. He wasn't playing ahead of Rafalski. He wasn't playing ahead of Kronwall. He wasn't playing ahead of Stuart. He wasn't playing ahead of Ericsson. It's highly doubtful he would play ahead of a healthy Lilja because of his PK ability. That's 6. Maybe he beats out Lebda or not... he certainly didn't do it before... but that would still only make him the 7th dman, so even if Detroit had kept him it's almost a sure thing that he would be tossed over the side for Kindl, anyway.

LA clearly didn't think they needed to keep him. Colorado's scratched him a few times to end the season, and that team doesn't have a better than average dman anywhere on their roster, unless Cumiskey has developed since I last watched him.

I mean, Lord. I've never fully understood why you've been so steadfast in crying your regret over the Wings not keeping a 6th/7th dman. Those guys are a dime a dozen.

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04-22-2010, 07:42 PM
  #48
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so, things we've learned:
1) can't trust HD's analysis
2) can't trust Joyce's analysis
3) can't entirely trust Wings' analysis

guess the only way to know if a guy is ready for the NHL is to play him in the NHL. is that what you were getting at w/ this thread?

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04-22-2010, 07:46 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by jacK View Post
so, things we've learned:
1) can't trust HD's analysis
2) can't trust Joyce's analysis
3) can't entirely trust Wings' analysis

guess the only way to know if a guy is ready for the NHL is to play him in the NHL. is that what you were getting at w/ this thread?


What you should have learned is that you can trust my, Joyce's and the Wings analysis... it's just that even we aren't perfect.

And absolutely, I think the next new wave in prospect development is going to be the 'Wheel of IT', where GMs just start putting random prospect names on a big wheel and spin it once a month to select who gets called up, and then spins a second wheel to see where they are playing.

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Old
04-22-2010, 08:18 PM
  #50
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I didn't have much faith in Howard, tbh.

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