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The Official Ilya Kovalchuk Thread

View Poll Results: Sign Ilya Kovalchuk?
YES! 107 45.92%
NO! 112 48.07%
Neutral/Indifferent 14 6.01%
Voters: 233. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-23-2010, 09:19 AM
  #51
TheHotRock
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Originally Posted by kyko1827 View Post
absolute maximum i'd be okay with signing kovy for is 8 mill. cap hit other than that let the loser walk
i like how you're willing to spend 8 mil a year on a "loser"

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04-23-2010, 09:19 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by GothamRanger View Post
We've seen the Thrashers with and without Kovalchuk. We've seen the Devils without and now with Kovalchuk. Where did you see a Kovalchuk team winning more games?
You're looking at that in a vacuum. You're also ignoring that the results for the Thrashers and the Devils resulted from a trade. At the end of the day, he was a PPG player for the Devils. It's not his fault the Devils were icing a mediocre blueline.

This team sorely lacks secondary scoring. He would provide that. A team that has Gaborik and Kovalchuk doesn't get shut out 4 times in one month.

Again, it might not make sense to add another contract, but he would certainly help this team win more games.

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04-23-2010, 09:21 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by GothamRanger View Post
There's the difference between being a player able to score 40 goals and a a 40 goal scorer. Kovalchuk's contribution to his team starts and ends at his stat line. And I love Gaborik, I know he kills penalties, but in the end of the day he doesn't have many dimensions in the same way Kovalchuk does. They are there to score goals, and that's it.

There's a law of diminishing returns. You can't expect that adding three 40-goal scorers to a team means you just added 120 goals in production. There's the law of mutual exclusivity, diminishing returns, etc: playing on the same line makes each person less productive, playing on different lines means one person will get less ice time than the other, etc.

There's a difference between players like Crosby and Patrick Marleau. You want to add those types to our club, that's an entirely different story.
And there are differences between players like Kovalchuk and Plekanec. One is consistently one of the top goal-scorers in the league. The other is basically a 2nd line center who had his career year in his walk year. And, then people will complain when, because of the money tied up in an under-productive Plekanec, there won't be a spot for Stepan when he's ready. Again, which is the bigger example of Ranger cap mismanagement...overpaying a top line player, or overpaying the next level and hoping he plays like the top line player? Matt Cullen and Scott Gomez say "hi".

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04-23-2010, 09:21 AM
  #54
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Look, im not even for Kovalchuk, and the "loser" argument is useless.

Adding a 45 goal guy to you lineup helps your team. He could be so useless to your defense that it is like killing a penalty every time he is on the ice, and it would still come out relatively even.

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04-23-2010, 09:23 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by TomLaidlaw View Post
Building your team from the wingers in is a bad bad idea. The team with the best centers beats the team with the best wingers every single time. Look back at the past Stanley Cup champs. They are all strong down the middle. Goalie playing well, puck moving d-man and strong Centers. You can get away with mediocre wingers when you have great centers.

If we were to sign Kovy it means our two highest paid forwards are wingers (Gabby and Kovy). You can't tie up that much cap space in two wingers. I don't care how good your wingers are. Here is an example. The 2009-2010 NJ Devils. They had Kovy, Parise and Elias going into the playoffs. If we were to sign Kovy would our wingers be better than the wingers the Devils had this year? No, they wouldn't. The Devils had a amazing group of wingers this year and lost in the first round in 5 games.

Look at a team like the Caps. They have two of the best wingers in the league. However, in my opinion they were never a serious threat to win the cup until Backstrom established himself as a superstar center.

Elias and Zajac are the centers. The whole team laid an egg. Where were the other players? Brodeur was his usual mediocre self since the lockout.

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04-23-2010, 09:27 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
You're looking at that in a vacuum. You're also ignoring that the results for the Thrashers and the Devils resulted from a trade. At the end of the day, he was a PPG player for the Devils. It's not his fault the Devils were icing a mediocre blueline.

This team sorely lacks secondary scoring. He would provide that. A team that has Gaborik and Kovalchuk doesn't get shut out 4 times in one month.

Again, it might not make sense to add another contract, but he would certainly help this team win more games.
Win how many more games?

Wouldn't we just go from 9th to at best 6th or 5th? Its that really enough of a reason to sign Kovalchuk? Also, how do we know that this team will even improve THAT much?

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04-23-2010, 09:30 AM
  #57
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I didn't need this season to know Kovalchuk isn't worth whatever some team is going to pay him. He's an electric hockey player that's worth the price of admission. HOWEVER, when he played the Rangers in the playoffs he was invisible. I knew then what kind of player he his. Playoff hockey is very different than reg season hockey. If making the playoffs is your standard, he's your guy. He will score 80-90 points for the next decade. I just don't see him ever carrying a team to the cup and for that cap hit, he needs too.

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04-23-2010, 09:30 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
And there are differences between players like Kovalchuk and Plekanec. One is consistently one of the top goal-scorers in the league. The other is basically a 2nd line center who had his career year in his walk year. And, then people will complain when, because of the money tied up in an under-productive Plekanec, there won't be a spot for Stepan when he's ready. Again, which is the bigger example of Ranger cap mismanagement...overpaying a top line player, or overpaying the next level and hoping he plays like the top line player? Matt Cullen and Scott Gomez say "hi".
Your argument would hold a lot more water if Plekanec wasn't significantly better than Cullen is/ever was, and if he wasn't going to need to get Gomez-esque money to come here.

And how exactly would he end up blocking Stepan? When was the last time a rookie center not drafted in the top 2-3 or so came into the league and deserved top 6 minutes right off the bat? Plus, I didn't realize it was just a matter of time until Stepan is an AS or something.

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04-23-2010, 09:30 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post

Adding a 45 goal guy to you lineup helps your team.
Without a doubt. It is silly to try and argue that our team wouldn't be improved with a player of Kovys ability. However, it wouldn't make us Stanley Cup contenders and would tie up a significant amount of cap space on wingers. Which is a bad idea when trying to build a team.

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Old
04-23-2010, 09:33 AM
  #60
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How about we don't sign any free agents.
thats fine.

well get a good draft choice in 2011 for sure that way

free agents dont equal wins but

no free agents with this team = lots of losses next season

whos gonna score goals for us ?

arty
capt quaalude
avery
dubi
cally
ec
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the midget from norway

omg. a lineup full of 3rd liners aint gonna get it done. weve proven that. right ?

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Old
04-23-2010, 09:34 AM
  #61
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everyone is saying adding a 40 goal scorer will help this team, well have we not tried this path before? no playoffs for 9 seasons!!??? We have quite a bit of young talent maybe not all ready for the nhl this season, but some of them will be, let's see what they bring, and maybe we bring z back for a season at cheap rate...kovy is a 1dimensional player he cares about him scoring only and not his team...do we really want to gamble on another player and watch him eating up salaray for 5 years while he only goes out and scores 20-30 goals each season under pressure if we get that lucky, he is not new york material

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Old
04-23-2010, 09:35 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner View Post
Win how many more games?

Wouldn't we just go from 9th to at best 6th or 5th? Its that really enough of a reason to sign Kovalchuk? Also, how do we know that this team will even improve THAT much?
I don't really know how much. When your second leading scorer puts up 84 points as supposed to 58, you're going to win games. I'm, not advocating getting him. I just think it's shortsighted and presumptuous to say he wouldn't help this team win games. Especially when the team lacks secondary scoring. Add Kovalchuk and his 41 goals and this team would have scored more goals than the Pens. This is hardly a perfect science or the strongest argument, but adding an elite offensive player is going to help win more games.

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04-23-2010, 09:35 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Maineice11 View Post
everyone is saying adding a 40 goal scorer will help this team, well have we not tried this path before? no playoffs for 9 seasons!!??? We have quite a bit of young talent maybe not all ready for the nhl this season, but some of them will be, let's see what they bring, and maybe we bring z back for a season at cheap rate...kovy is a 1dimensional player he cares about him scoring only and not his team...do we really want to gamble on another player and watch him eating up salaray for 5 years while he only goes out and scores 20-30 goals each season under pressure if we get that lucky, he is not new york material
What 40 goal scorer did this team add during those years?

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04-23-2010, 09:37 AM
  #64
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I don't think a single person in this thread has yet to say bringing Kovy in wouldn't help the team win more games.

There are FA's that will probably cost around 1mil that could help this team win more games, it's not exactly a huge selling point.

It's basically the question of is this the best way to spend 8+ million.

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04-23-2010, 09:39 AM
  #65
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Your argument would hold a lot more water if Plekanec wasn't significantly better than Cullen is/ever was, and if he wasn't going to need to get Gomez-esque money to come here.

And how exactly would he end up blocking Stepan? When was the last time a rookie center not drafted in the top 2-3 or so came into the league and deserved top 6 minutes right off the bat? Plus, I didn't realize it was just a matter of time until Stepan is an AS or something.
Really? You're saying my argument was not that the Rangers in their history of signing free agents have a habit of signing players to contracts that are above what they are worth and then expect them to be better players because of it? So, when they signed Matt Cullen, they weren't expecting him to be the 2nd line center, or Gomez to be a 1st line center? Sorry, but, that's EXACTLY what they did. And, you're telling me that if they sign Plekanec, it won't be because they expect him to be the 1st line center.

And, while he won't get Gomez money, he'll still get at least $5.5 million, which will still make him overpaid.


Last edited by jas: 04-23-2010 at 09:48 AM.
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Old
04-23-2010, 09:43 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
thats fine.

well get a good draft choice in 2011 for sure that way

free agents dont equal wins but

no free agents with this team = lots of losses next season

whos gonna score goals for us ?

arty
capt quaalude
avery
dubi
cally
ec
prust
the midget from norway

omg. a lineup full of 3rd liners aint gonna get it done. weve proven that. right ?
By get it done, do you mean win a Stanley Cup? No combination of free agent signings will result in us winning a cup next season. That is my opinion though. So I don't see the need to bring in a fresh group of mercenaries when we could just give the ice time to younger players. If you are of the belief that we are one or two free agent signings away from being legit cup contenders then I understand why you want to be aggressive in free agency. I just don't share that view.

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04-23-2010, 09:44 AM
  #67
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i like how you're willing to spend 8 mil a year on a "loser"
I also like how people are "willing" to spend "8 mil" of space we don't have. If you're working under the assumption that the salary cap is irrelevant and we can just dump salary and splurge every year in free agency, why then is there a limit on how much you're willing to give the new acquisitions?

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04-23-2010, 09:45 AM
  #68
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What 40 goal scorer did this team add during those years?
fair enough...haha i was more so pointing at signing the best players on the free agent market...and I was too lazy to do research before posting that...just looked and lindros and fleury both had some 40 goal seasons before coming to nyr, and bure course his knees were toast by the time he got to new york....i do realize kovy is not bure and he has had more 40 goal seasons than fleury and lindros, but my point is not about comparing stats, it is about the right type of chemistry and character in the locker room, if we subtract the bad character/chemistry in the locker room and add some new good character/chemistry it makes a huge difference in how the team will perform. Kovy is not a good character/chemistry for this team, no real d or team play ethics.

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04-23-2010, 09:47 AM
  #69
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i will say right now. i am 1000% on board signing kovalchuk. without hesitation.

anyone who doesnt want kovy is crazy. im sorry. hell be expensive- duh. hes an elite talent. but ill take my chances with gaborik and kovalchuk on our top 2 lines and build around those guys from there with our yutes.

add 40+ goals to this team and WE ARE BETTER. WAY BETTER

hes a sniper.
hes a horse.
hes huge
hes physical
and he never gets hurt.

the guy is a stud. period.

unlike the devs, it will only cost us money, not players.

dump redden.

move rozy.

dont resign vinny

make peace with heikenin and get him on the roster next season.


if kovy is available to go hard after the guy. hes still one of the best players in the world people and he puts ........

PUCKS IN THE NET



assuming we have the cap space of course.

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04-23-2010, 09:50 AM
  #70
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Really? You're saying my argument was not that the Rangers in their history of signing free agents do not have a habit of signing players to contracts that are above what they are worth and then expect them to be better players because of it?
What are you expecting out of Kovalchuk. If we sign him for 8-10M per for a long term deal, do you expect him to LEAD this team to a cup? Because if your answer is no, then we have no business even considering him. That's too much money to tie up into a player that you don't have faith in to out battle the Crosby's, Ovechkin's, etc. of the league when the games matter.

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04-23-2010, 09:50 AM
  #71
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Really? You're saying my argument was not that the Rangers in their history of signing free agents do not have a habit of signing players to contracts that are above what they are worth and then expect them to be better players because of it? So, when they signed Matt Cullen, they weren't expecting him to be the 2nd line center, or Gomez to be a 1st line center? Sorry, but, that's EXACTLY what they did. And, you're telling me that if they sign Plekanec, it won't be because they expect him to be the 1st line center.

And, while he won't get Gomez money, he'll still get at least $5.5 million, which will still make him overpaid.
I'm saying that those two comparisons are awful in this situation.

Matt Cullen was never a good player to begin with, Plekanec is much better, so that comparison really doesn't work. Is your argument that because they stupidly expected Cullen to improve at 30 years old when his track record suggested he never would, so the Rangers shouldn't sign another center to play a top 6 role?

Gomez is not a bad player, it's just at 7.3 he's completely not worth it. Plekanec won't get 7.3, and really, if he gets under 4.5-5, that's a fair deal. That's pretty much the going rate for 60-70 point scorer, which is how much Gomez should have got. So if you're arguing that Sather shouldn't drastically overpay Plekanec, than yes I agree, but that's really the only comparison here. Not to mention, Plekanec's skill set fits this team much better than Gomez did when he came here.

Is Kovy really worth 8 mil plus? Absolutely not. If you're just going to harp on Sather overpaying FA's more than they're worth, might as well advocating signing no one.

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04-23-2010, 09:51 AM
  #72
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PUCKS IN THE NET

Guess they use different pucks and nets in the playoffs... Try:

PUCKS IN THE REGULAR SEASON NET

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04-23-2010, 09:52 AM
  #73
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What 40 goal scorer did this team add during those years?
Not saying the circumstances are the same, but Fleury, Lindros & Bure were all 40 goal scorers...not for us of course, but at one time they were. None of them really had much of an effect on our wins & losses vs. the previous year.

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04-23-2010, 09:55 AM
  #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
You're looking at that in a vacuum.
Define vacuum, and how that makes my point any less relevant? If I remember correctly you are the one who is saying Tortorella has been ineffective and you argue so by comparing this year's team from last (which I actually agree with you on). So, how does me comparing ATL with and without Kovalchuk not have merit? It's the only concrete data we have in such arguments, I think its the most valid to look at. The slack in Atlanta when Ilya was gone was picked up by 2nd line talent, not first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
You're also ignoring that the results for the Thrashers and the Devils resulted from a trade. At the end of the day, he was a PPG player for the Devils. It's not his fault the Devils were icing a mediocre blueline.
The result was that Atlanta didn't miss a beat or played better when they got rid of Kovalchuk. Atlanta got something in exchange for Kovalchuk, what we gain by signing him is his statline and what we lose via opportunity cost is the ability to make more moves to our roster. And I didn't argue that he wouldn't score points, I argued how many more games did the Devils win by adding Kovalchuk (which is, how many?). To say he wasn't a good fit for the Devils but he would be for the Rangers confuses me somewhat. But I do agree there is a difference between New Jersey and New York: New Jersey is a better team than New York.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
This team sorely lacks secondary scoring. He would provide that. A team that has Gaborik and Kovalchuk doesn't get shut out 4 times in one month.
You get secondary scoring from secondary scoring line type players. You don't turn a world class talent that needs room for his ego into a secondary scoring role. Again there is diminishing returns people fail to acknowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
Again, it might not make sense to add another contract, but he would certainly help this team win more games.
At the right price sure add him. He doesn't seem to be looking for the right price.

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04-23-2010, 09:55 AM
  #75
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Not saying the circumstances are the same, but Fleury, Lindros & Bure were all 40 goal scorers...not for us of course, but at one time they were. None of them really had much of an effect on our wins & losses vs. the previous year.
Bure was my favorite player and the day we got him I was the happiest kid in the world.... then that damn injury happened.

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