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Chris Pronger not included in the Norris Trophy final 3?!?!

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Old
04-23-2010, 04:13 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
It is still rather intriguing. You sign 5 of these guys and hope you get something from 2 of them.
Hey, it's better to have a large arsenal then be limited to something you already have. New weapons that no one has heard of can be considered like an underdog and suprise people. I don't expect much, I just want to see what they can do at this level.

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04-23-2010, 04:19 PM
  #77
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I think this was a massive snub. I'm not surprised though. All three of them are younger, out-scored him a bit, and played on teams with much better regular season records. No surprise really.

I don't really respect these awards anymore for very obvious reasons.

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04-23-2010, 04:23 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
It does matter who the goaltender is, considering how much worse Huet was than Niemi. Huet may have been among the 5 worst goaltenders in the league, playing 48 games for a team as good as that. He's the guy stopping the puck isn't he?
::sigh::

No, it does not matter who the goalies were...because every other Blackhawk player had to deal with Huet and Niemi. I'm not comparing Keith's GAON/OFF statistics to the Flyers or Pronger's directly, I'm comparing them to the rest of the Blackhawks.

Unless, of course, you're suggesting the Blackhawks were changing out their goalies so that Keith was playing with Huet behind him more often (as a %) than his teammates?

So, again, you're proving that you fundamentally don't understand the statistics that we are talking about, and how they are being used.

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Pronger had a really good year, I think some other guys were better, and don't need a calculator to tell me that.
Apparently you do if you think Dan Effing Boyle is better than him.

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You can't tell me Boyle wasn't pulling his weight defensively, and was only playing against 3rd and 4th liners for 26 minutes a game. We can get into all of these other numbers all night (a few of them are around the other candidates, some a bit higher, but 26 minutes a game he's gotta be facing other good players, thus doing a good job to warrant the time. And if not, then I guess opposing coaches don't want on the ice against him, which would speak even more to his abilities.
Dealing with things only at even strength.

At 2.76 GAON/60 I'm not all that impressed with Boyle's defensive play if we're comparing him to some of these other guys. He played against a QUALCOMP (contest that stat if you want) of 0.008, which isn't that impressive. In fact, Boyle is essentially a weaker version of Mike Green (who was scored on far less than Boyle, btw).

More to the point.

Boyle played 18.33 minutes of even strength ice a night, 4.10 of 5 on 4 a night, and 2.38 of 4 on 5.

So, really, as far as matchups you're only concerned with his 18.33.

Vlasic played 16.36 against 0.025 QUALCOMP
Blake played 15.29 against 0.044 QUALCOMP
Murray played 16.46 against 0.24 QUALCOMP

Boyle is behind all of those guys as far as who he was playing against. Boyle is on the ice a lot because he puts up points, not because he's an excellent defender. He's never been an excellent defender. So, it's unclear to me why you've gotten it into your head that he is.

Dan Boyle is a fine player, and his team scored more often (3.27 GFON/60) than the Flyers did with Pronger on (2.59). Boyle's team was +.07 better when he was on the ice than when he was not over 60 minutes. The Flyers were +1.1 better when he was on the ice than when he was not over 60 minutes. It's ridiculous to suggest Boyle is or ever was better than Pronger.


Last edited by Jester: 04-23-2010 at 04:36 PM.
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04-23-2010, 04:30 PM
  #79
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I don't think he got snubbed because I think Weber should be ahead of Pronger anyway, but the fact that Green is on that list makes me a little wild. That is an abomination of everything hockey.

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04-23-2010, 04:33 PM
  #80
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It does suck a little, cause he is not getting the recognition. I think it is weird not seeing that Lidstrom guy. Keith is going to win it though, he has been awesome all year!

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04-23-2010, 04:36 PM
  #81
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Chris Pronger was very underwhelming at the olympics. I know many will say that this award has nothing to do with the olympics. But I guarantee you the voting is affected by how the players performed at the olympics. Green was going to be one of the final 3 for sure, when you put up insane numbers like he did.

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04-23-2010, 04:48 PM
  #82
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**** Mike Green. Doughty and Keith are great picks. No questioning those two picks, but Green?!?! Yeah sure he had 70-odd points, cool, he was on the Caps. He had a +39, sweet, Jeff Schultz was better in that category. JEFF SCHULTZ.

Green is not good defensively at all. Doughty and Keith are both point producers AND good defensively. If Green wins that will be some major ********.

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04-23-2010, 04:52 PM
  #83
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I'd like to see Green win the Norris, and get completely abused by us if/when we play them. It'd be great if Pronger went ape **** and had monster series too.

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04-23-2010, 04:55 PM
  #84
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There needs to be an award for best offensive defenseman perhaps, like a Bobby Orr trophy, because Mike Green does not represent "the greatest all-round ability in the position."

They simply looked at points and +/- I'm assuming.

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04-23-2010, 05:06 PM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyers93 View Post
**** Mike Green. Doughty and Keith are great picks. No questioning those two picks, but Green?!?! Yeah sure he had 70-odd points, cool, he was on the Caps. He had a +39, sweet, Jeff Schultz was better in that category. JEFF SCHULTZ.

Green is not good defensively at all. Doughty and Keith are both point producers AND good defensively. If Green wins that will be some major ********.
Jeff Schultz is very good.


However, once upon a time Marek Malik, and Tom Preissing led the league in +/-.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
::sigh::

No, it does not matter who the goalies were...because every other Blackhawk player had to deal with Huet and Niemi. I'm not comparing Keith's GAON/OFF statistics to the Flyers or Pronger's directly, I'm comparing them to the rest of the Blackhawks.

Unless, of course, you're suggesting the Blackhawks were changing out their goalies so that Keith was playing with Huet behind him more often than (as a %) than his teammates?

So, again, you're proving that you fundamentally don't understand the statistics that we are talking about, and how they are being used.
No, you're assuming that I don't because I don't let my brain run off of calculators and statistics. I just choose to not let it hold as much water and come up with my own inferences as opposed to having it dictated to me like a rain man. You keep number crunching and come up with formulas and equations for what's going on on the ice, I'm just going to watch the games, and not worry so much about being wrong because it doesn't make sense when I plug the numbers in. And in the end our lists of top 10-20 defenseman from this season will have a lot of the same names. And to be a top 10 defenseman in any year...you're not doing too bad.

Also, this is on a 60-minute average for the skater. Huet and Niemi were alternating games for a while, so while they're not being switched out on each shift, for a good while they were playing equal time from game-to-game.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post

Apparently you do if you think Dan Effing Boyle is better than him.
This is not correct. I said he had a better season. And didn't take many if any dips because of ridiculous quarreling with players and/or coaches, firings, and systems and such regardless of whoever's fault that was.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Dealing with things only at even strength.

At 2.76 GAON/60 I'm not all that impressed with Boyle's defensive play if we're comparing him to some of these other guys. He played against a QUALCOMP (contest that stat if you want) of 0.008, which isn't that impressive. In fact, Boyle is essentially a weaker version of Mike Green (who was scored on far less than Boyle, btw).

More to the point.

Boyle played 18.33 minutes of even strength ice a night, 4.10 of 5 on 4 a night, and 2.38 of 4 on 5.

So, really, as far as matchups you're only concerned with his 18.33.

Vlasic played 16.36 against 0.025 QUALCOMP
Blake played 15.29 against 0.044 QUALCOMP
Murray played 16.46 against 0.24 QUALCOMP

Boyle is behind all of those guys as far as who he was playing against. Boyle is on the ice a lot because he puts up points, not because he's an excellent defender. He's never been an excellent defender. So, it's unclear to me why you've gotten it into your head that he is.

Dan Boyle is a fine player, and his team scored more often (3.27 GFON/60) than the Flyers did with Pronger on (2.59). Boyle's team was +.07 better when he was on the ice than when he was not. The Flyers were +1.1 better when he was on the ice than when he was not. It's ridiculous to suggest Boyle is or ever was better than Pronger.
Show me where I said Boyle was an 'excellent defender.' I said he was pulling his weight, and at some point has to be out there against top line players if he's getting all this ice time, and can't be doing too bad if he's still getting put out there. I've been far more critical of him in the past, but I happen to think that he's gone beyond that this season. He was more consistent during the 82-game season as well.

Matt Greene and Marc Staal have had decent such numbers during the past few years, but I never see people claiming don't get respect because of their lack offense.

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Old
04-23-2010, 05:08 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natedawg View Post
Chris Pronger was very underwhelming at the olympics. I know many will say that this award has nothing to do with the olympics. But I guarantee you the voting is affected by how the players performed at the olympics. Green was going to be one of the final 3 for sure, when you put up insane numbers like he did.
I agree.

I think Pronger probably would have Doughty's spot if Doughty didn't outplay him at the Olympics.

It shouldn't matter, but it definitely does.

For the record, I would vote:

1. Keith
2. Pronger
3. Doughty
4. Lidstrom
5. Green

But you really can't be surprised that Pronger isn't a finalist. Keith is well ahead of everyone IMO, but I wouldn't be shocked if Green won because of his stats.

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04-23-2010, 05:41 PM
  #87
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I might be in the minority, but I think Green should win it; definitely at least be in the mix. It's not that I'm more for offensive d-men than I am for defensive d-men, but IMO a d-man putting up 76 points in 75 games playing in THIS NHL is downright ridiculously amazing. I could see if he had - numbers but he was a +39. Yeah, I know it's the caps, but I'm sure his production was a big part of the Caps as well.

When was the last time a defenseman put up more points than games played 2 seasons in a row? I looked up Lidstrom (by default, lol) and he had 80 in 80 back in 05/06.

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04-23-2010, 05:55 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natedawg View Post
Chris Pronger was very underwhelming at the olympics. I know many will say that this award has nothing to do with the olympics. But I guarantee you the voting is affected by how the players performed at the olympics. Green was going to be one of the final 3 for sure, when you put up insane numbers like he did.
Started off slow, played better and got more ice time as the games were more important. I'm not sure he was snubbed but I think Green has no place in the top 3.

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04-23-2010, 05:56 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
The only thing wrong about this is Green being nominated. Other than that, I don't have Pronger in my top 5 let alone top 3.
Seriously?

Sometimes I think you make these kinds of statements just for arguements sake.

Pronger is easily one of the top defenders in the league. In front of the net, he is a force. He makes great outlet passes and his point totals show it. He has a hard slap shot, and he anchors Matt freakin Carle.

Duncan Keith is an excellent defenseman, but he has the much more talented Brent Seabrook with him at all times. That helped him put up more points.

Doughty is just phenominal for such a young age, very impressive player.

Mike Green is a very point productive defensemen, but to nominate him for a top defensemen in the league is a DISGRACE. This should be the award that commends the guy who anchors the blue line. The guy who is a stud defensively and still puts up points. Chara and Lindstrom are good examples of Norris winners. Green's defense is a joke. He is not anywhere near this type of player. He looks like a forward out of position.

I hate awarded an award to a guy who pinches as much as he does. He hardly plays actual defense!

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Originally Posted by The Inebriator View Post
GKJ has Boyle ahead of Pronger...

Thanks for the laugh.


Quote:
Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I'm not good enough with sabremetrics in baseball, and don't care enough to do the research on it. I can't even figure out VORP.

I am fully aware of what both are and didn't need any of them to come up with Doughty and Keith as the top 2 Norris contenders, and a number of my top defensemen after that. Beyond that, I say everyone has a valid argument for who should be #3, excluding Green.

Why? He's been better. For the whole season. Not just parts of it.
BOYLE??



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
If you were fully aware, and had fully processed 'em... you wouldn't be comparing 'em to +/-.

FALSE.

Boyle plays an easier shift than Pronger, and gives up WAY more goals against.

If you think Boyle is, or has been better than Pronger this year you need to completely revise your theories...


Quote:
Originally Posted by chimrichalds18 View Post
Pronger can just take it out on Green/the Caps. How much of an F-You would it be if he went into SuperPronger mode and won us the series? I'd love to see it.
I agree, Pronger might even have a chance to elbow Green, considering Green pinches all the time anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
www.behindthenet.ca

Green's GF numbers are absolutely insane, but that's true of more than a few Capitals. His GA numbers aren't bad, but the Caps are a better defensive team without him on the ice...and he also didn't play against too tough a group.

Green is obviously a great player, but it's a joke if he wins the Norris.
Agreed

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Originally Posted by Mark Stuart View Post
Snubbed? I could name at least 10 D-men better than Pronger this season. He was very, very pedestrian by his standards.
pathetic

I'd like to see this "list".

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
False.

He played a harder shift this year than last....allowed fewer goals... and had the 3rd or 4th best offensive season of his career, and that's with this team going into the tank for nearly 25% of the season.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Keith has been the "pick" all year whenever I read about this stuff... zero shock he's there.
Yeah, pretty much. Lucky for him, he is paired with Seabrook, not Carle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Natedawg View Post
Chris Pronger was very underwhelming at the olympics. I know many will say that this award has nothing to do with the olympics. But I guarantee you the voting is affected by how the players performed at the olympics.

Green was going to be one of the final 3 for sure, when you put up insane numbers like he did.
Yeah ..... you need to double check your post.

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Originally Posted by Flyers93 View Post
**** Mike Green. Doughty and Keith are great picks. No questioning those two picks, but Green?!?! Yeah sure he had 70-odd points, cool, he was on the Caps. He had a +39, sweet, Jeff Schultz was better in that category. JEFF SCHULTZ.

Green is not good defensively at all. Doughty and Keith are both point producers AND good defensively. If Green wins that will be some major ********.
I have a thing about hating defensemen who suck defensively and focus mostly on offense. I give Carle some slack, but he falls into this category.

A defensemen who doesnt play good defense shouldn't be given an award for being the top defenseman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markzab View Post
I might be in the minority, but I think Green should win it; definitely at least be in the mix. It's not that I'm more for offensive d-men than I am for defensive d-men, but IMO a d-man putting up 76 points in 75 games playing in THIS NHL is downright ridiculously amazing. I could see if he had - numbers but he was a +39. Yeah, I know it's the caps, but I'm sure his production was a big part of the Caps as well.

When was the last time a defenseman put up more points than games played 2 seasons in a row? I looked up Lidstrom (by default, lol) and he had 80 in 80 back in 05/06.
Lidstrom is good in BOTH ends. Not just one, like Mike Green.

Don't get me wrong, I like Mike Green, but he is not the best defensemen at all.

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04-23-2010, 06:00 PM
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natedawg View Post
Chris Pronger was very underwhelming at the olympics. I know many will say that this award has nothing to do with the olympics. But I guarantee you the voting is affected by how the players performed at the olympics. Green was going to be one of the final 3 for sure, when you put up insane numbers like he did.
Then again, Green wasn't even at the Olympics.
If he gets the Norris over Keith and Doughty, who played a very good Olympics, are much better defensively than he is, and are not that far off offensively (especially Keith) ... I'm gonna jump out of a window.

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04-23-2010, 07:26 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSniper87 View Post
Lidstrom is good in BOTH ends. Not just one, like Mike Green.

Don't get me wrong, I like Mike Green, but he is not the best defensemen at all.
I wasn't leaning towards anything when I asked that. I was actually just asking the question of when the last time a defenseman put up more points than games played 2 seasons in a row. I mentioned Lidstrom because he's the only one good enough I could even think of who is playing or has been playing in this era of hockey.

So again, does anyone know? I couldn't imagine Orr being the last one, right?

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04-23-2010, 07:40 PM
  #92
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It's an outlier opinion, I know that. But you guys are acting like I'm talking about Jeff Finger here.

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04-23-2010, 08:25 PM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natedawg View Post
Chris Pronger was very underwhelming at the olympics. I know many will say that this award has nothing to do with the olympics. But I guarantee you the voting is affected by how the players performed at the olympics. Green was going to be one of the final 3 for sure, when you put up insane numbers like he did.


Except if you count the Gold medal game where he was one of the best players on the ice.

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04-23-2010, 09:38 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
No, you're assuming that I don't because I don't let my brain run off of calculators and statistics. I just choose to not let it hold as much water and come up with my own inferences as opposed to having it dictated to me like a rain man. You keep number crunching and come up with formulas and equations for what's going on on the ice, I'm just going to watch the games, and not worry so much about being wrong because it doesn't make sense when I plug the numbers in. And in the end our lists of top 10-20 defenseman from this season will have a lot of the same names. And to be a top 10 defenseman in any year...you're not doing too bad.
No, I'm assuming you don't understand it because you clearly don't understand what you're talking about. It isn't about being a calculator, you don't need to be someone else puts 'em all together for you. It's simply understanding what the data shows you, that you're completely subjective reasoning (thus the Boyle opinion) doesn't mesh with.

Which is how we arrive at this statement:

Quote:
Also, this is on a 60-minute average for the skater. Huet and Niemi were alternating games for a while, so while they're not being switched out on each shift, for a good while they were playing equal time from game-to-game.
...what the hell are you talking about? This would be relevant if I was making some comparison between the Flyers and Blackhawks skaters, but I'm not. I'm comparing Keith's stats when he's on ice, to the average for all other Blackhawks when he's not on the ice. Who happens to be playing goal in a given game is completely and utterly irrelevant in that analysis because it's a wash for all Blackhawk players, they are all playing with either Huet or Niemi behind them.

So your continued insistence that this is somehow relevant to the point I made... is proof you don't understand the stat.

In comparing Pronger to, say, Timonen it's completely irrelevant which of the Flyer goalies was playing for those statistics...both of 'em had to play their shifts with Emery, Leighton, or Boucher behind 'em for x, y, and z games.

Quote:
This is not correct. I said he had a better season. And didn't take many if any dips because of ridiculous quarreling with players and/or coaches, firings, and systems and such regardless of whoever's fault that was.
You said you had Boyle ahead of Pronger...meaning he had a better season than him. Pronger is a DEMONSTRABLY better defensive player than Boyle, and Boyle is a marginally better offensive player.

More importantly, in empirical numbers (meaning you can't debate them, they're facts): Pronger's positive effect on the Flyers was 15.71x that of Boyle's positive effect on the Sharks (note: that is not a typo).


Quote:
Show me where I said Boyle was an 'excellent defender.' I said he was pulling his weight, and at some point has to be out there against top line players if he's getting all this ice time, and can't be doing too bad if he's still getting put out there. I've been far more critical of him in the past, but I happen to think that he's gone beyond that this season. He was more consistent during the 82-game season as well.
Consistently mediocre defensively...and one of the worst on the group of players we're talking about as far as having goals scored against him while they were on the ice. Actually, he's probably by far the worst of anyone you can reasonably mention. I think Green is a joke defensively, but his defensive stats dwarf Boyle's.

Quote:
Matt Greene and Marc Staal have had decent such numbers during the past few years, but I never see people claiming don't get respect because of their lack offense.
Matt Greene scored 9 pts this year...he'd have to allow zero goals in order to even get into the discussion. He doesn't "lack offense," he's anemic. He also doesn't play nearly enough minutes to deserve consideration (Randy Jones played more even strength minutes per game, true story), and played his shifts against really weak competition (-0.047). He doesn't even deserve mention in this discussion.

Staal is a much more interesting player to make note of, and absolutely someone that will get hurt until he starts to put up more points. His positive effect on the Rangers was +.57 from when he wasn't on the ice.

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04-23-2010, 09:47 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Natedawg View Post
Chris Pronger was very underwhelming at the olympics. I know many will say that this award has nothing to do with the olympics. But I guarantee you the voting is affected by how the players performed at the olympics. Green was going to be one of the final 3 for sure, when you put up insane numbers like he did.
Team Canada was picked by Steve Yzerman, who spent the better part of his career playing against Chris Pronger. The fact that Mike Green was left off the roster, and that Team Canada won gold says all that needs to be said. Great individual talent. Not a great defender.

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04-23-2010, 09:53 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
It's an outlier opinion, I know that. But you guys are acting like I'm talking about Jeff Finger here.
No, just remarkable someone that watched the Flyers all year would have such a poor appreciation for the season Pronger had.

Without Pronger on the ice this year, the team was a terrible even strength team, giving away almost a half goal per 60 minutes. With Pronger on the ice, they were a very good even strength team, outscoring their opponents by almost a half goal a game. That's a ridiculous effect on the fate of a team.

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04-23-2010, 10:25 PM
  #97
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the asst 1/60 and asst 2/60 stats on that site does that reflect first and second assists respectively?

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04-23-2010, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No, I'm assuming you don't understand it because you clearly don't understand what you're talking about. It isn't about being a calculator, you don't need to be someone else puts 'em all together for you. It's simply understanding what the data shows you, that you're completely subjective reasoning (thus the Boyle opinion) doesn't mesh with.

Which is how we arrive at this statement:



...what the hell are you talking about? This would be relevant if I was making some comparison between the Flyers and Blackhawks skaters, but I'm not. I'm comparing Keith's stats when he's on ice, to the average for all other Blackhawks when he's not on the ice. Who happens to be playing goal in a given game is completely and utterly irrelevant in that analysis because it's a wash for all Blackhawk players, they are all playing with either Huet or Niemi behind them.

So your continued insistence that this is somehow relevant to the point I made... is proof you don't understand the stat.

In comparing Pronger to, say, Timonen it's completely irrelevant which of the Flyer goalies was playing for those statistics...both of 'em had to play their shifts with Emery, Leighton, or Boucher behind 'em for x, y, and z games.



You said you had Boyle ahead of Pronger...meaning he had a better season than him. Pronger is a DEMONSTRABLY better defensive player than Boyle, and Boyle is a marginally better offensive player.

More importantly, in empirical numbers (meaning you can't debate them, they're facts): Pronger's positive effect on the Flyers was 15.71x that of Boyle's positive effect on the Sharks (note: that is not a typo).




Consistently mediocre defensively...and one of the worst on the group of players we're talking about as far as having goals scored against him while they were on the ice. Actually, he's probably by far the worst of anyone you can reasonably mention. I think Green is a joke defensively, but his defensive stats dwarf Boyle's.



Matt Greene scored 9 pts this year...he'd have to allow zero goals in order to even get into the discussion. He doesn't "lack offense," he's anemic. He also doesn't play nearly enough minutes to deserve consideration (Randy Jones played more even strength minutes per game, true story), and played his shifts against really weak competition (-0.047). He doesn't even deserve mention in this discussion.

Staal is a much more interesting player to make note of, and absolutely someone that will get hurt until he starts to put up more points. His positive effect on the Rangers was +.57 from when he wasn't on the ice.
You keep ramblin' on about my prerogative on how I rate, value, and analyze defensemen. It is far more subjective and not scientific, I've said that a few times. I am no expert, no analyst, and I don't get a vote (which regardless, I wouldn't have had Boyle as the third guy, I have Zdneo Chara, then Lidstrom and then Shea Weber - something I changed in my head very late in the game, although I did think Boyle was going to be the third guy as a prediction). Right or wrong I choose to use my brain and my own two eyes when watching games, and I'll look at numbers in the meantime. This immediately puts all these numbers in a different context because I'd added an inexact, unidentifiable (by your standard) variable to the equation - personal opinion. This does NOT mean I don't understand it, it means I choose to not use it as you do, I choose not to use it as the gospel, and I choose not to have stats - any stats - dictate my entire opinion.

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04-23-2010, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
You keep ramblin' on about my prerogative on how I rate, value, and analyze defensemen. It is far more subjective and not scientific, I've said that a few times. I am no expert, no analyst, and I don't get a vote (which regardless, I wouldn't have had Boyle as the third guy, I have Zdneo Chara, then Lidstrom and then Shea Weber - something I changed in my head very late in the game, although I did think Boyle was going to be the third guy as a prediction). Right or wrong I choose to use my brain and my own two eyes when watching games, and I'll look at numbers in the meantime. This immediately puts all these numbers in a different context because I'd added an inexact, unidentifiable (by your standard) variable to the equation - personal opinion. This does NOT mean I don't understand it, it means I choose to not use it as you do, I choose not to use it as the gospel, and I choose not to have stats - any stats - dictate my entire opinion.
No, dude, your claim that the Huet/Niemi dynamic mattered is why I said you don't understand it...because if you think that mattered in what I was saying, you don't understand those statistics, or how they were being analyzed.

And it's all fine and good that you choose to use your brain and your own two eyes...but understand some things about the human brain. It's TERRIBLE at processing large volumes of information (like say the 82 game schedule NHL players play and the thousands of minutes they spend on the ice). Your brain is also TERRIBLE at processing and remembering large volumes of information objectively.

That isn't a criticism of you. The above is true of me as well. That's why I pay attention to statistics. They remember everything, and for things like GAON/OFF are completely objective, they don't lie.

For example, you colored your opinion of Pronger above with crap about coaching changes, and off ice stuff... ya know, completely irrelevant crap to his play on the ice.

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04-23-2010, 10:37 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No, just remarkable someone that watched the Flyers all year would have such a poor appreciation for the season Pronger had.

Without Pronger on the ice this year, the team was a terrible even strength team, giving away almost a half goal per 60 minutes. With Pronger on the ice, they were a very good even strength team, outscoring their opponents by almost a half goal a game. That's a ridiculous effect on the fate of a team.
If poor appreciation means that I watch the games, and don't read advanced stats to tell me what's going on with no room for objective opinions and analysis, then fine, that's poor appreciation.

However, if you're being serious about this "poor appreciation," I'd have to say you're just looking to get into an argument, just to argue about things.

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