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Lidstrom not a Norris finalist

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Old
04-23-2010, 01:18 PM
  #1
chances14
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Lidstrom not a Norris finalist

http://freep.com/article/20100423/SP...rris-finalists

mike green being nominated is a slap in the face to all the other defensman in the league

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Old
04-23-2010, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wings1421 View Post
http://freep.com/article/20100423/SP...rris-finalists

mike green being nominated is a slap in the face to all the other defensman in the league
Mike Green deserves a nod this year. His defense was much improved.
Stop whining.

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04-23-2010, 01:38 PM
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sparr0w
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Mike Green deserves a nod this year. His defense was much improved.
Stop whining.
It would have been some feat for him to have gotten worse...

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04-23-2010, 01:49 PM
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I kind of expected Lidstrom not to make it this year. But, Mike Green? I would have taken Pronger or maybe even Weber. But Green's defense is still not good enough. It is a slap in the face for a lot of defensemen, but if they were not nominated, that is not their fault.

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04-23-2010, 01:56 PM
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67coach
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A poor crop of Finalists.
Doughty is the only one on there that should be.

Nick is getting older and I know we love him here but we tend to forgive the glaring mistakes easier than the writers

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04-23-2010, 02:00 PM
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3 worthy finalists. Man, can't wait to see the uproar when Green wins. <grabs popcorn>

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04-23-2010, 02:01 PM
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Guys from NHL Live were shocked Lids wasn't nominated.

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Old
04-23-2010, 02:06 PM
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Nick had a good year but a meh year in his terms...not a Norris-worthy season. I think Pronger should've been the other nominee. We all know Green won't win...he's only nominated because of his Paul Coffey-like stats. I think Keith or Doughty are equally worthy...Doughty will win a few of those awards for sure, Keith might win one along the way.

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04-23-2010, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by norrisnick View Post
It would have been some feat for him to have gotten worse...
I agree.
But while he still has a ton to learn about defense, and he's probably not even average defensively yet, it's tough to ignored his offensive numbers and how that fits into the Washington attack.

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04-23-2010, 02:12 PM
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Brodie
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Green earned it, Lidstrom didn't this year.

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Old
04-23-2010, 02:38 PM
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chances14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Mike Green deserves a nod this year. His defense was much improved.
Stop whining.
not whining. i knew lidstrom wouldnt get it this year but there are better dman out there other than mike green who are more deserving of the award IMO

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04-23-2010, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
Green earned it, Lidstrom didn't this year.
Really? How so? His awesome OFFENSIVE stats?

Didn't know it was awarded to forwards....

Nope, sorry. Green is very, VERY average defensively- I don't care how many points he puts up, he is not Norris material.

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Old
04-23-2010, 02:51 PM
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CorbeauNoir
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
I agree.
But while he still has a ton to learn about defense, and he's probably not even average defensively yet, it's tough to ignored his offensive numbers and how that fits into the Washington attack.
Then by your own admission nominating him for best DEFENSEMAN is laughable.

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04-23-2010, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir View Post
Then by your own admission nominating him for best DEFENSEMAN is laughable.
The dude was PLUS 39, so whatever he did on his way to a 19 goal, 76-point season wasn't that bad.

Let's not pretend that defense is ALL that matters. Rafalski isn't getting $6M a year for defense,
Lidstrom wouldn't have won a single Norris Trophy if he wasn't among defensemen leaders in points.

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04-23-2010, 03:21 PM
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CorbeauNoir
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
The dude was PLUS 39, so whatever he did on his way to a 19 goal, 76-point season wasn't that bad.
Yeah, a plus-39 on a team who's philosophy was entirely geared towards offense. Mike Green could have sat down on the blue line with his thumb up his ass all season and still gotten a positive plus-minus just by virtue of his teammates. Do you really think his +/- would be anywhere even close to that if he was playing for the Wild or the Coyotes?

I get that racking up some points is obviously going to help with Norris consideration, but when those points become the sole consideration it becomes a slap in the face to the trophy itself. Lidstrom has produced some excellent offensive numbers in his time; he also backed that up with excellent defensive play, something Green completely fails to do. If you're a defensive liability, it's a joke to be even nominated for the Norris regardless of how many points you score - it completely contradicts the purpose of the trophy as being awarded to the best DEFENSEMAN. If you can't play the fundamental purpose of your position, how does it make any sense that you're the best at that position?


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Old
04-23-2010, 03:25 PM
  #16
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Well, at least we have Rafalski to earn those Norris trophies.

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04-23-2010, 03:34 PM
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i though the award was for defence why is mike green there?

I am also getting ready for the upraor as well. Gets popcorn

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04-23-2010, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir View Post
Yeah, a plus-39 on a team who's philosophy was entirely geared towards offense. Mike Green could have sat down on the blue line with his thumb up his ass all season and still gotten a positive plus-minus just by virtue of his teammates. Do you really think his +/- would be anywhere even close to that if he was playing for the Wild or the Coyotes?

I get that racking up some points is obviously going to help with Norris consideration, but when those points become the sole consideration it becomes a slap in the face to the trophy itself. Lidstrom has produced some excellent offensive numbers in his time; he also backed that up with excellent defensive play, something Green completely fails to do. If you're a defensive liability, it's a joke to be even nominated for the Norris regardless of how many points you score - it completely contradicts the purpose of the trophy as being awarded to the best DEFENSEMAN. If you can't play the fundamental purpose of your position, how does it make any sense that you're the best at that position?
If the team was totally geared towards offense, then why aren't teams scoring a ton of goals against them?

In the end, the point of hockey is to score more goals then you give up. When Green, a defenseman, was on the ice, Washington did that quite well.
So obviously his defense isn't nearly the issue everyone is trying to say it is.

And you are wrong when you say suggest that defense is the "fundamental" purpose of Green's position. He's a defenseman. But the coach decides his fundamental purpose.
Green fulfills his role pretty damn well, I'd say.

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Old
04-23-2010, 03:45 PM
  #19
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Bummed but not surprised to not see Lidstrom on the list. I'd vote for Keith but my guess is Green gets the hardware. It's an offensive defenseman award.

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04-23-2010, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
If the team was totally geared towards offense, then why aren't teams scoring a ton of goals against them?
The Capitals have allowed 233 goals this season - even Philly's goaltending woes from hell didn't surrender that much. Teams ARE scoring a ton of goals against them. If it wasn't for their unreal offense (and terrible division competition) I'd struggle to put them as a top-4 seed.

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And you are wrong when you say suggest that defense is the "fundamental" purpose of Green's position. He's a defenseman. But the coach decides his fundamental purpose.
Green fulfills his role pretty damn well, I'd say.
Defense is the fundamental purpose of a defenseman's position - otherwise what the **** is the point of being on the blue line in the first place? All you're doing is admitting that Green fails at what his position is intended to do. Who gives a **** about what the coach hapens to decide - you just need to crack open a dictionary to understand that Green is terrible at the position he's supposed to be playing. What if the coach 'decided' to put Ovechkin on the blue line; does that automatically make him a good defenseman?

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04-23-2010, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wings1421 View Post
http://freep.com/article/20100423/SP...rris-finalists

mike green being nominated is a slap in the face to all the other defensman in the league
Duncan Keith winning it would be a slap in the face of all the actually skilled defenseman who know the game and dont just rely on their speed.

Green's offensive game is so insane its unreal. You dont just put up 70 pt seasons like that anymore. Some will say its the Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin factor but all it takes is to watch this kid play when he's on and he's just incredibly offensively gifted.

My vote goes to Doughty though. Saw him play in November and was just blown away at his progress. Then we all witnessed him at the Olympics and he's just been unreal in the post-season. I could see Doughty being a Norris candidate for a long time.

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Old
04-23-2010, 03:57 PM
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If Lidstrom can't win. GO DOUGHTY!

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04-23-2010, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir View Post
Yeah, a plus-39 on a team who's philosophy was entirely geared towards offense. Mike Green could have sat down on the blue line with his thumb up his ass all season and still gotten a positive plus-minus just by virtue of his teammates.

If you think its just so easy to be a Washington Defenseman and anyone could get those type of pts then explain to me why Corvo only has 6 pts in 18 games as their second PP QB, sometimes also out there with Ovechkin and Backstrom on the odd shift and he's never generating the type of offense Green does. Oh, and in those 18 games he was a -4. Sometimes you just need to give credit where credit is due.

Thats like the idiots on the main board saying Howard was a product of having Lidstrom and Rafalski in front of him when in reality it was Howard who basically bailed out the entire team and gave them a legitimate shot at the post-season.

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04-23-2010, 04:01 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
If you think its just so easy to be a Washington Defenseman and anyone could get those type of pts then explain to me why Corvo only has 6 pts in 18 games as their second PP QB, sometimes also out there with Ovechkin and Backstrom on the odd shift and he's never generating the type of offense Green does. Oh, and in those 18 games he was a -4. Sometimes you just need to give credit where credit is due.

Thats like the idiots on the main board saying Howard was a product of having Lidstrom and Rafalski in front of him when in reality it was Howard who basically bailed out the entire team and gave them a legitimate shot at the post-season.
You can't base the award on +/-. Jeff Schultz was +50 on Washington sitting on the blue line. He had a wopping like 12 points.

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Old
04-23-2010, 04:11 PM
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CorbeauNoir
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Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
If you think its just so easy to be a Washington Defenseman and anyone could get those type of pts then explain to me why Corvo only has 6 pts in 18 games as their second PP QB, sometimes also out there with Ovechkin and Backstrom on the odd shift and he's never generating the type of offense Green does. Oh, and in those 18 games he was a -4. Sometimes you just need to give credit where credit is due.
My issue isn't that he's not offensively skilled; it's abundantly obvious that he is. But he still is weak defensively, which undermines the entire point of his position and thus the point of the Norris. It only further demonstrates what a misleading stat +/- is; nothing about Green's reflects his defensive ability. Being with Ovechkin or Backstrom 'on the odd shift' with less ice time (which is somewhat laughable when compared to how often Green was out with those players) only tells me that Corvo, unlike Green, is incapable of scoring. Hell, Jeff Schultz had a +50 and only had 20 points, so perhaps it's simply a matter of Corvo not being very good at defense OR offense.

Quote:
Thats like the idiots on the main board saying Howard was a product of having Lidstrom and Rafalski in front of him when in reality it was Howard who basically bailed out the entire team and gave them a legitimate shot at the post-season.
Agreed; except that my point of contention would be that both Lidstrom and Rafalski had (relatively) weak seasons this year and for most of the season we were playing with half of Grand Rapids on the ice - and Howard kept them afloat. Green had no such handicaps with Washington's roster.

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