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Lidstrom not a Norris finalist

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Old
04-23-2010, 04:12 PM
  #26
nihlify
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Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir View Post
Defense is the fundamental purpose of a defenseman's position - otherwise what the **** is the point of being on the blue line in the first place?
The purpose of any position is to do what it takes to beat the other team. If having a extremely offensive defenseman on your team gives you a better shot at winning, then playing offense is what they should be doing. I'm not saying it is that way but just saying a defensemans purpose is defense just for the sake of it isn't really fair. People shouldn't dismiss offensive defensemen automatically just because they aren't the best at defense.

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04-23-2010, 04:21 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nihlify View Post
The purpose of any position is to do what it takes to beat the other team. If having a extremely offensive defenseman on your team gives you a better shot at winning, then playing offense is what they should be doing. I'm not saying it is that way but just saying a defensemans purpose is defense just for the sake of it isn't really fair. People shouldn't dismiss offensive defensemen automatically just because they aren't the best at defense.
No one is saying to dismiss offensive defensemen, but when you are awarding a DEFENSEMEN, you shouldn't pick a player that is extremely average defensively JUST because of his OFFENSIVE numbers. That's idiotic. In fact, it's contradictory.

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04-23-2010, 04:26 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by nihlify View Post
People shouldn't dismiss offensive defensemen automatically just because they aren't the best at defense.
But this is supposed to be an award for THE BEST DEFENSEMAN. Being a defenseman naturally comes with particular responsibilities; if you're not performing those responsibilities how does it make any sense that you're the best at it? Again, I turn to Lidstrom - In his prime his offensive abilities were right up there with Green's today, but he still recognized that, as a defenseman, there's more to the position that simply racking up points. It was his recognition - and execution - of that that made him a lock for the Norris for so many years. Even Bobby Orr, whose offense is still mind-boggling even today - was an excellent backchecker.

If the interpretation of defense is seriously becoming SO loose that the fundamental purpose of what defense entails is becoming irrelevant, why even bother with dedicated blueliners in the first place? Why not make someone like Ovechkin a defenseman if there are no longer any defensive expectations associated with the position anyway? He scores a ******** of goals, so by your interpretation that would make him a good defenseman. Heck, defensemen get more icetime so he'd probably score even MORE goals.

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04-23-2010, 04:30 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir View Post
If the interpretation of defense is seriously becoming SO loose that the fundamental purpose of what defense entails is becoming irrelevant, why even bother with dedicated blueliners in the first place?
Because coaches and GMs actually want to win games.

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04-23-2010, 04:32 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
Because coaches and GMs actually want to win games.
So why don't they tell Green to smarten up in his own end? You're saying that good defense wins games, but Green dosen't supply good defense and is being nominated anyway. Heck, the Capitals have won games in spite of his poor backchecking. So, again, what's the point of him being a defenseman in the first place? Why not just have him play as a forward if he's going to demonstrate no defensive responsibility?


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04-23-2010, 07:20 PM
  #31
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Lidstrom hasen't been in his best form during the first half of the season but Green has played pretty consistently this year defensively (nothing bad, nothing astounding) so his offensive numbers do give him a nod over guys like Lidstrom.

I don't understand how Myers isn't in over Doughty though.

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04-23-2010, 07:47 PM
  #32
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I've watched Nick Lidstrom play a ton of hockey over the years so I used the same rationale. Keith is out there against the toughest competition and was key to Chicago being so sound defensively. Here is what Puck Daddy says:

"Keith played against the toughest opponents 5-on-5, with a Quality of Competition rating of 0.081. (Head here for an explanation for how it's computed.) Doughty's (0.027) was higher than Green's (0.005). All stats are via Behind the Net."

Keith had 69 points so really not that far behind Green considering he plays in the tougher conference. Then you throw in he had much tougher matchups than Green? Case closed in my book.

But don't worry, Green will win the award. He put up a lot of points and goals, plays on the Presidents trophy team and gets a lot of coverage due to playing with Ovechkin.


Last edited by Harnessed in Slums: 04-23-2010 at 07:48 PM. Reason: minor typo
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Old
04-23-2010, 07:56 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
Duncan Keith winning it would be a slap in the face of all the actually skilled defenseman who know the game and dont just rely on their speed.
I have a hard time believing you've seen Keith play this season. That is just a ridiculous statement.

Keith was the best defenseman in the NHL this year and way ahead of Green, he should get the Norris.

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04-23-2010, 08:19 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by jaster View Post
I have a hard time believing you've seen Keith play this season. That is just a ridiculous statement.

Keith was the best defenseman in the NHL this year and way ahead of Green, he should get the Norris.
Keith was the best defenseman for the first 60 games this season I'd say. He struggled a bit after the olympics but I don't think it should be enough to take away the norris from him, though I could see Green getting it just because he keeps putting up the points they might feel obligated to give it to him once. Also with how well Washington played the final 20 game stretch might have strayed some writers to go the way of Green due to Keith's final 20 game struggles

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04-24-2010, 12:26 AM
  #35
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imo, doughty has the most talent and potential, but i don't think he should have been a finalist. i think his voting was based too much on hype and potential, and probably also the olympics.
i also think award voting is based too much on how well the player's team did in the standings.

he is a superior defensive player to green, but his PK role is almost identical. i cannot see how doughty has had a better season than pronger.

pronger has similar scoring, but is a superior defender and PKer, and nearly carried the flyers. in addition to their goaltending problems, most of the flyers players had worse seasons.


i dislike d-men like green, who also has sucked in the playoffs for some reason, (he also seems like a *******) but i think it makes more sense for him to win than doughty.
i thought similarly last season about chara and green. i thought chara had basically no reason to win instead of lidstrom, but green did.



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Originally Posted by Shoalzie View Post
Nick had a good year but a meh year in his terms...not a Norris-worthy season. I think Pronger should've been the other nominee. We all know Green won't win...he's only nominated because of his Paul Coffey-like stats. I think Keith or Doughty are equally worthy...Doughty will win a few of those awards for sure, Keith might win one along the way.
i think pronger should have been ahead of green and doughty.

green does not have coffey like stats. he has leetch like stats.

green had 70p this season.

coffey had 70p in '95, the 1/2 season.

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Originally Posted by Jussha View Post
Keith was the best defenseman for the first 60 games this season I'd say. He struggled a bit after the olympics but I don't think it should be enough to take away the norris from him, though I could see Green getting it just because he keeps putting up the points they might feel obligated to give it to him once. Also with how well Washington played the final 20 game stretch might have strayed some writers to go the way of Green due to Keith's final 20 game struggles
agreed

keith's level of play really fell off after the olympics.

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04-24-2010, 01:26 AM
  #36
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Green nominated is such a disgrace to all real defenceman. Guy is playing like a forward so what his average defenseabilities are enough to put him in the race? I'd say no.

Lidstrom didn't have his best season (our whole D didn't) but he really picked it up and should at least be nominated. How about Brodeur? No way has he been equal with Miller, Brygalov, Lundqvist..

I'm shocked they didn't even nominate Myers. Give it to Keith he deserves it this year.

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04-24-2010, 08:49 AM
  #37
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I hate when people compare Green to Coffey. The two arent even in the same ballpark, hell, they dont even play the same sport.

Coffey won his Norris' when his point totals were so friggin ridiculous in comparison to other, better-defensively defensemen.

Green's points are nowhere even near the needed level and scale when compared to his peers.

Whoopety-doo! He scored 76pts?! zOMG.

Big whoop. Keith had 69 all while actually executing the namesake of his position and the PK and playing against the other team's top line (unlike Mr. Hidden from Failure).

Doughty, a second year defensemen, had 59 pts...with a similar role to Green, but really...I cant take anyone seriously who could rationalize them playing similar defense.

Pronger is the real travesty here. He should win the Norris outright over any of these other guys. It should be a two-horse race between Keith and Pronger (I'll take Pronger, thank you).

Green is a broken, sub-par, third-place version of Coffey with a similar lack of defensive prowess. If Green did eclipse his peers in point totals like Coffey did, I'd hand him the Norris myself with great pride. But he doesnt...not even freaking close.

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04-24-2010, 09:25 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tfong View Post
Lidstrom hasen't been in his best form during the first half of the season but Green has played pretty consistently this year defensively (nothing bad, nothing astounding) so his offensive numbers do give him a nod over guys like Lidstrom.

I don't understand how Myers isn't in over Doughty though.
Myers had a great rookie season, but he's not at Doughty's level and I would be surprised if he ever becomes as good or better than him..


As for the finalists.. If it were up to me, the top 3 would be Keith, Doughty and Pronger with Keith winning it..

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04-24-2010, 09:49 AM
  #39
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As for the finalists.. If it were up to me, the top 3 would be Keith, Doughty and Pronger with Keith winning it..
pronger? is that the guy who looks slow as ****? he's so old.

i was pretty impressed with suter this season. he has his ups and downs, but who of the current Ds hasn't? there's no dominating D in the league.

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04-24-2010, 10:12 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Mike Green deserves a nod this year. His defense was much improved.
Stop whining.
Why? Because he scored a whole 7 more points than Keith and wasn't as awful defensively as he was the previous season?

He doesn't deserve the Norris nomination. He's mediocre defensively at best, and doesn't have the out of this world offense necessary to overlook that.

There were other defenseman more worth of the nod. Boyle, Pronger, Lidstrom to name a few. Guys who you actually want on the ice playing defense.


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Old
04-24-2010, 10:19 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
Duncan Keith winning it would be a slap in the face of all the actually skilled defenseman who know the game and dont just rely on their speed.

Green's offensive game is so insane its unreal. You dont just put up 70 pt seasons like that anymore. Some will say its the Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin factor but all it takes is to watch this kid play when he's on and he's just incredibly offensively gifted.

My vote goes to Doughty though. Saw him play in November and was just blown away at his progress. Then we all witnessed him at the Olympics and he's just been unreal in the post-season. I could see Doughty being a Norris candidate for a long time.
It's not though. It's very good, don't get me wrong. But he is on the most offensively powerful team in the league, and he's not that far ahead of other legit defenseman. Ones who play defense.

As others have mentioned, he's not in the Paul Coffey stratosphere. Some people seem to think that because he's the best offensive defenseman, that makes him like Coffey. Coffey was that, but was also among the league leaders in scoring for any position. If Green were around the 100 point mark in today's game, he would be more like Coffey.

As I've said before, it's unfortunate that more and more they seem to just look at the stats column for voting and don't actually pay attention to the games.

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04-24-2010, 11:39 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by zecke26 View Post
pronger? is that the guy who looks slow as ****? he's so old.

i was pretty impressed with suter this season. he has his ups and downs, but who of the current Ds hasn't? there's no dominating D in the league.
He definitely looks slow, but I dont think he's ever been considered fast

Outside of the skating, Pronger has looked very good to me. Both offensively and defensively..

I dont know if Suter will ever win a norris, but he's certainly a very underrated d-man. Weber gets most of the credit in Nashville, but Suter is just as good as him..

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04-24-2010, 12:40 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Jussha View Post
Keith was the best defenseman for the first 60 games this season I'd say. He struggled a bit after the olympics but I don't think it should be enough to take away the norris from him, though I could see Green getting it just because he keeps putting up the points they might feel obligated to give it to him once. Also with how well Washington played the final 20 game stretch might have strayed some writers to go the way of Green due to Keith's final 20 game struggles
The thing is once they lost Campbell they had to juggle their defensive pairings and that's part of the reason Keith wasn't as strong has he'd been for the vast majority of the season. For some games he was paired with Byfuglein on defense! Tough to hold that against Keith. I think Keith is playing with Seabrook once again and they've really tightened things up.

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04-24-2010, 01:36 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Harold Snepsts View Post
Why? Because he scored a whole 7 more points than Keith and wasn't as awful defensively as he was the previous season?
And Green plays in the East, which this year put in probably the worst top to bottom performance of any Conference the past 15-20 years.

Against the West Green had 3 goals, 14 assists and was a +2 in 18 games. He had 0 goals and 6 assists at ES.

Against the East Green had 16 goals, 46 assists and was a +37 in 57 games. He had 9 goals and 26 assists at ES.

Green's lucky he plays in Washington, which doesn't remotely care about defense.

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04-24-2010, 01:51 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Beltatross View Post
You can't base the award on +/-. Jeff Schultz was +50 on Washington sitting on the blue line. He had a wopping like 12 points.
You also cannot simply award it because said player is either a pure defensive defenseman or a pure offensive defenseman. Both are essential parts to the defensive corps. Was Paul coffey REALLY that good defensively? From my memory bank, no.

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Originally Posted by CorbeauNoir View Post
My issue isn't that he's not offensively skilled; it's abundantly obvious that he is. But he still is weak defensively, which undermines the entire point of his position and thus the point of the Norris. It only further demonstrates what a misleading stat +/- is; nothing about Green's reflects his defensive ability. Being with Ovechkin or Backstrom 'on the odd shift' with less ice time (which is somewhat laughable when compared to how often Green was out with those players) only tells me that Corvo, unlike Green, is incapable of scoring. Hell, Jeff Schultz had a +50 and only had 20 points, so perhaps it's simply a matter of Corvo not being very good at defense OR offense.
As mentioned above, offensive defenseman and defensive defenseman are both vital parts of their position. Its like comparing Bouwmeester to Regehr. One is a "prime" offensive defenseman for the Flames. The other is a standout defensive defenesman. Both are different but both are essentially just as vital to their team as the other. Regehr is about as good offensively as Bouw is defensively.

Green is the best offensive defenseman out of the three.
Keith is the best skater and two-way defenseman.
Doughty IMHO is the best out of the three defensively (also not saying he's the best defensively in the league, just to clarify that. I think Keith is overrated so i might be bias) but his offensive game is probably just as good as keith's at the moment.

Green I think gets a bad rep around here because he's on Washington.. Just like the arguments against Howard being on Detroit has helepd him (when in reality Howard has saved out ***** all year). I aint saying Green is a stud defensively but this is what you need to think about when voting:

Which defenseman made the most impact for his respective club based on his overall skill-set (offensive and defensive are parts of the game). I want Green to win because I personally thought he outshined Chara last year but I honestly think Doughty will win it. Just my 2 cents.

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04-24-2010, 01:54 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Snepsts View Post
It's not though. It's very good, don't get me wrong. But he is on the most offensively powerful team in the league, and he's not that far ahead of other legit defenseman. Ones who play defense.

And i respect your opinion but I just disagree. I think Green would still be putting up strong offensive numbers on other teams. Not saying being on Washington hasnt helped him because he has but it doesnt take a genius to watch him and say "wow, he's like a 4th forward."

I aint denying playing in Washington helped his stats, but I dont think he would be a 40 pt defenseman on other teams unless it was a team that was offensively challenged such as the Islanders, Oilers and such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaster View Post
I have a hard time believing you've seen Keith play this season. That is just a ridiculous statement.

Keith was the best defenseman in the NHL this year and way ahead of Green, he should get the Norris.
Why is it so hard for people to understand not everyone is sold on said player.

DO you call Ovechkin lovers when your a Crosby fanatic an idiot for liking him over Sid? Apples to Oranges. I'm not sold on Keith nor have I ever been. But yea, I guess watching Chicago 6 times this year Vs. Detroit, once in person, Keith playing in the Olympics and then watching the playoff series Versus Nashville means Ive never seen him play.

I guess I could go off the record and say that everyone who says Green's only good becuase of the team he's on makes that a "ridiculous statement" too?

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04-24-2010, 06:12 PM
  #47
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Do you or do not agree that Green hasnt separated himself enough from his contemporaries in points alone?

Coffey did, Green does not. He is the best offensive defensemen in the league....maybe. Thats even debatable, that Green just-so-happens to play on the highest scoring team in the league with the most dynamic goal scorer since Bure. Green and Coffey can be used in the same sentence when Green places Top 5 in scoring in the league amongst all skaters.

Coffey literally had to do that to win his Norris' because he was seen as defensively inferior to others. He had to create such a huge chasm between him and his competition that the voters had to recognize his talents as being the best.

Green has not done that, I personally dont think he ever will. But if/when he does, he'll deserve the Norris.

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04-24-2010, 06:46 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
I'm not sold on Keith nor have I ever been. But yea, I guess watching Chicago 6 times this year Vs. Detroit, once in person, Keith playing in the Olympics
I wonder what you thought of Mike Green's Olympic play?

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04-24-2010, 07:04 PM
  #49
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I wonder what you thought of Mike Green's Olympic play?

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04-24-2010, 07:06 PM
  #50
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Nick was not one of the three best defensemen in the NHL this season. He should not have been nominated.

Green had a much better season last year, so if he didn't win then you'd have to figure he wouldn't win now. He still might if they do the ol' Peyton Manning Heisman Vote on it and give it to him because he should have won the year before.

Keith is a Hawk but he's a Sparty too, so I wouldn't be crushed if he won it. He has a good case.

Doughty is the media darling and since guys get bonus points for being younger, I'd say he's probably the favorite IMO. He's had a good year but I would put him either 2nd or 3rd if I were voting. He's definitely a notch behind Keith.

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