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A couple fantasy Bruin trade questions

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05-09-2004, 02:04 PM
  #1
AlbertaBruin#24
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A couple fantasy Bruin trade questions

I am not sure I would be in favor of doing a big rebuild for my Bruins myself at the moment as I actually do like our core to build around. I am wondering though what the board here thinks of a couple ideas that I might think about if they were presented to me as Bruins GM.


Of course this is mostly all purely hypothetical... i cant read real GM's minds or know their own irrational opinions of the values of the players I am suggesting. This is a process for entertainment purpose only... but I am interested in feedback.



TRADE IDEA NUMBER 1

If Joe Thornton was to be moved from Boston, I think the B's would be signaling that we were rebuilding bigtime again and were going to be looking 3-4 years down the road at the earliest. If Joe were to be moved then, the team would be wanting talented kids back.

The Calgary Flames are showing far more than I thought they had... obviously alot of it is do to a team system and chemistry... perhaps they shouldn't be wanting to do a big trade at all.

Calgary is also a small market team... it is questionable that they could afford to keep both Iginla and Thornton.

Suppose for arguments sakes though that the new CBA was going to control costs for third/fourth line guys and arbitration... and suppose that there was going to be some sort of gate equalization program as part of a cap agreement... suppose that there will be no cap without a guarantee that there will be a 'minimum' payroll too.

It is all possible... it is possibly even likely...

If the next CBA was going to allow for the possibility, would it make sense for Calgary to package up some of their fantastic looking kids to make a move for Thornton?

Call my trade idea Chuck Kobasew, Dean Pneaulf [sp?] Eric Nystrom, and the Calgary 2004 first rounder for Joe Thornton and Lars Jonsson.

Calgary does almost nothing to mess up their current team... and add a monster to play with Iginla or to create a second line with. They do sacrafice three pretty damn good looking kids though. Boston sheds a ton of immediate payroll and likely increases their overall team depth a ton for three-seven years down the road.

On paper does the trade look okay for both teams? Does it make any sense on the ice?

TRADE IDEA TWO
If Thornton goes... not much sense to keep Samsonov. He has been hurt the last two years, so I would keep him to at least game 20-30 and let him show what he can do with 20 min of ice each night and top PP time... think of a healthy Sammy who has 25 points after 20 games as the guy I am trading here then.

Sammy is mr excitement... he creates more offensive opportunities pure shift then anyone I see in the NHL... he will sell tickets... even if he doesn't always seem to get the best results for all the opportunities that he does generate.

I think a team like Pittsburgh could really use Samsonov bigtime. He really isn't making too much at the moment for a ppg player who has pretty much been playing without linemates in Boston the last 3 seasons. Look at Samsonov's Even-strength production... he scores hardly anything on the PP how the Bruins totally favor the big men there.

Anyhow... let Sammy show he is healthy [hopefully] then I propose this deal...

Samsonov and Hal Gill for Ryan Whitney, Milan Kraft, Pittsburgh 2004 1st round pick.

I am thinking Pittsburgh probably doesn't have forever to get decent again... their franchise has a shallow pocket ownership and crowds are totally dying for them. Boston meanwhile gets a potential number 1 stud dman here with MASS area appeal... we get a talented kid center who has not been able to thrive in the Penguin system... and we get a kid that should have the potential to be as good as Samsonov in 4-5 years from the very good draft pick spot.

TRADE IDEA 3

Trading both Thornton and Samsonov will effectively gut the Bruin's chances for at least the next three seasons. It would be pointless to keep both Raycroft and Boynton under this circumstance.

Raycroft, Boynton, and Hilbert to Washington for first overall pick.

Washington seems to be wanting to do some serious cost controls now that their ownership has soured on owning a hockeyteam. Is he going to want a kid that he has to pay 4-5 mill a season to in bonues?

Perhaps. Washington does have Oulette as a young goaltender... not sure how high they are on him.

Raycroft would let the Caps move Kolzig for additional savings. Boynton looks ready today to be a top 2 d-man. Washington prob cant say bad for long and keep their spot in the market for fan interest. Are Raycroft and Boynton enough to get Washington to move a potential franchise player?

Not sure... i might throw in a second rounder from Boston but I wouldn't offer much more.

FINAL TRADE PROPOSAL HERE:

Sergei Gonchar and Martin Lapointe and half of Lapointe's contract to Florida for Anthony Stewart.

Is Florida close enough that Gonchar and Lapointe could push them to the playoffs? Would Gonchar like to stay in Florida after he has had a year there to enjoy the weather? What about Lapointe?

Stewart looks like a young stud in the making... but is he going to be a front line guy or a second line guy?

Anyhow... after these trades my Bruins would have a new core to build around that would feature Toivonen as the goaltender of the future. Whitney/Pneaulf/Stuart as the top anchors for the blueline. Ovechkin [sp again?] Kobasew, Nystrom, Boyes, Stewart, Kraft, Samuelsson as forwards who should be able to play top three lines.

We would also have good picks this year from Calgary and Pittsburgh that would hopefully hit too... and then the team should suck so much for this season that we would have a damn good shot at drafting Crosby too.

Would this be feesible? Do any of my trade suggestions seem too ambitious favoring the Bruins?

Would it be worth tearing apart a good young core today to try to shoot for an unbeatable dynasty three or four years down the road?

anyone want to offer up their own thoughts for discussion?

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05-09-2004, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlbertaBruin#24
I
TRADE IDEA TWO
If Thornton goes... not much sense to keep Samsonov. He has been hurt the last two years, so I would keep him to at least game 20-30 and let him show what he can do with 20 min of ice each night and top PP time... think of a healthy Sammy who has 25 points after 20 games as the guy I am trading here then.

Sammy is mr excitement... he creates more offensive opportunities pure shift then anyone I see in the NHL... he will sell tickets... even if he doesn't always seem to get the best results for all the opportunities that he does generate.

I think a team like Pittsburgh could really use Samsonov bigtime. He really isn't making too much at the moment for a ppg player who has pretty much been playing without linemates in Boston the last 3 seasons. Look at Samsonov's Even-strength production... he scores hardly anything on the PP how the Bruins totally favor the big men there.

Anyhow... let Sammy show he is healthy [hopefully] then I propose this deal...

Samsonov and Hal Gill for Ryan Whitney, Milan Kraft, Pittsburgh 2004 1st round pick.

I am thinking Pittsburgh probably doesn't have forever to get decent again... their franchise has a shallow pocket ownership and crowds are totally dying for them. Boston meanwhile gets a potential number 1 stud dman here with MASS area appeal... we get a talented kid center who has not been able to thrive in the Penguin system... and we get a kid that should have the potential to be as good as Samsonov in 4-5 years from the very good draft pick spot.





Pens have held on this long,with the attendance and arena problems,so why are they making a move like this when the cba is about to expire?

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05-09-2004, 03:03 PM
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW
Pens have held on this long,with the attendance and arena problems,so why are they making a move like this when the cba is about to expire?
I would suggest it is because Lemieux was desperate to get some of the money owed him back. He thought if he stepped in to save the team, his name would get him a new arena and help him towards this end.

it wasn't enough. He even tried to play the last couple seasons hoping he would help turn things around that way... he didn't.

Lemieux is at the end of the line for being able to do it himself. His team is stripped of all marketable immediate assets. Even if he was to move the franchise, how much would it be attractive to a secondary market as is?

I personally don't think Lemieux wants the negative press that would accompany moving the team. In a perfect world he gets his money back ASAP and then finds some way to sell the team.

The new arena is really his golden goose.

Pittsburgh isn't going to build him that arena when their are no fans in the seats... no fans are going to sit in those seats unless there is some sort of chance to be entertained during the game.

It's a catch 22 spiral situation that isn't going to be fixed anytime soon letting the odd kid step up one at a time.

It is possible to build through the draft... but it takes 3-4 years minimum to even become a 500 team. How long has Calgary sucked before they were able to get back to the playoffs this year? How long did it take the Islanders for their bottom feeding days? What about Anaheim or Carolina?

A team can eventually get good enough in the draft to have a good run in the playoffs... but it is a very long haul to do it.

Can Lemieux last that long even with a new CBA?

1000 extra tickets sold for all 42 home games at even $50 dollars per ticket is over 2 million dollars pure revenue. Add in the concesions, parking, souvenieres and it is probably more like 3 million.

I would suggest that a ppg mr excitement guy like Samsonov would be good for those 1000 tickets.

Heck... if Pittsburgh told Sammy to score his goal... promoted Fleury to stop the other team... put in a total trap system like Minnesota... they might even be able to play 500 hockey and make the playoffs.

Playoff teams almost always draw another 1000-2000 more fans than teams that totally suck.

Lemieux isnt a billionare. A million here and a million there mean just as much to him as it does to the typical superstar player playing in the NHL these days.

Perhaps my trade idea isnt the best one possible for Pittsburgh... perhaps my reasoning isnt the same idea that the Penguins management would have themselves.. but if you wanted my reasoning in more detail, here it was.

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05-09-2004, 04:43 PM
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When will people learn that no way will Thornton be traded.

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05-09-2004, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlbertaBruin#24

Anyhow... after these trades my Bruins would have a new core to build around that would feature Toivonen as the goaltender of the future. Whitney/Pneaulf/Stuart as the top anchors for the blueline. Ovechkin [sp again?] Kobasew, Nystrom, Boyes, Stewart, Kraft, Samuelsson as forwards who should be able to play top three lines.

We would also have good picks this year from Calgary and Pittsburgh that would hopefully hit too... and then the team should suck so much for this season that we would have a damn good shot at drafting Crosby too.

Would this be feesible? Do any of my trade suggestions seem too ambitious favoring the Bruins?

Would it be worth tearing apart a good young core today to try to shoot for an unbeatable dynasty three or four years down the road?

anyone want to offer up their own thoughts for discussion?
You do know that that would be the end of the bruins as we know it?

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05-09-2004, 05:38 PM
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Good god that's horrible. You'd gut the team for years to come, what the hell?!

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05-09-2004, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Malakhov
Good god that's horrible. You'd gut the team for years to come, what the hell?!
That would be death for many bruins fans. I was quite shocked as well when I read that post.

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05-09-2004, 08:47 PM
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Trade 2 would never happen. Ever. Why would the pens give up three recent 1st round draft pick(two of which that are top 5) for an older dman who is avg at best and a guy that is no better than Morozov? You have Bruins players WAY OVERVALUED. The pens would give up Malkin(who could be a superstar in the making and prob no worse than what Samsonov already is), Whitney(#5 in 02' who looks to make the club out of camp with his play in the AHL playoffs), and Kraft(who was a first rounder in 98' and had 19 goals and 21 assists). I wouldnt give up Kraft alone for Samsonov.

The pens would be crazy to offer this package to try and more up for Ovechkin, and your talking Samsonov and Gill?

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05-09-2004, 08:51 PM
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Trade 2 is terrible. It's gonna take more then Samsonovo to get the 2nd overall pick alone.

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05-09-2004, 09:37 PM
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Everyone is entitled to their opinions and i appreciate everyone who takes the time to give me theirs...

I will responds to a few thoughts here.

First of all... as for Boston gutting or killing their team for years to come... Edmonton went from an expansion team with two players to build around to a cup champ in 5 years.

Florida took about that same 5 years to go from raw expansion team to cup finals with no superstar to build around at all for the most part.

Colorado/Quebec bottom fed for around 7 years and then have put together a dynasty that has competed for the cup pretty much the last decade.

New Jersey and Detroit both also had to bottom feed for 5-6 years before their recent dynasty runs.

A team does need to suck for awhile before it can totally load up for the most part... teams that just try to stay good all the time and throw money at their problems like Toronto or New York Rangers never quite have enough to get over the top with their aging stars.

Does Boston have enough of a core now to win with? Perhaps... perhaps not.

I might not favor a rebuild as it stands today... depends really what the next CBA would do.

As a general philosphy though sucking for 2-3 years... getting a Jokkinen, Luongo, Bouwmeester, Weiss, and Horton to anchor your team... then signing a few choice UFA with the money you saved on big contracts while you did suck is the way to build a team that will dominate for years to come.

Would Bruin fans have the paitence to wait? prob not... we tend to be a very short-sighted group. Oh well...

On to the opposition to the Pen deal... im accused of overvaluing my Bruin players... funny but for the last three years most my board says that my trades suck for Boston. Guess i am doomed to lose either way.

Truth is that I study hockey like a complete loser... i analyze trades, stats, history till im about ready to puke from the overload.

I would suggest that anyone who doesnt appreciate Samsonon might not remember that he was well argued as a potential first overall in the same draft as Hossa and Thornton until his size scared some teams off at the last second.

Samsonov then went out and won the ROTY award.

He played most his first season with Khristictch and a young Anson Carter... not exactly world beater linemates.

In year two Sammy was partnered up with Allison and then they were joined by Guerin for year three... Sammy responded by having more even-strength points than either of his linemates... he was the engine stirring the drink.

Sammy has never in his career played first pp unit with Boston for any significant amount of time. First it was Allison/Guerin/Carter/Thornton getting the prime PP time and then it became Thornton/Murray/Knuble/Rolston/Stumple/Nylander

Maybe there is a reason Boston always waits to throw Sammy out for the last 30-40 seconds of PP's with the b-unit guys? I think it is just a bias against his size myself..

Oh well... Last season Sammy was healthy he was one of only 7 guys at Valentines day to be averaging over a PPG in the league... he was in the top 10 in scoring. He got hurt shortly there after... and Thornton took his suspension then got hurt himself about that time too... but Sammy is a top 10 scorer playing on a second line with no linemates and no prime pp time.

I might overestimate him... we are all potentially guilty of that... i think though I know him a lot more than someone who just notices that he only scored 20 or 30 points now over the last two seasons.

Sammy's value is down today... he has been hurt... but only Thornton/Hossa have better offense numbers from his draft class.

Marleau is the flavor of the month or maybe Jokkinen is because they were healthy the last two seasons... Sammy has outplayed both over their careers.

Would Sammy be worth the second overall?

Remember Philadelphia got Pitkanen basically for Fedetenko. Sammy is a hell of a lot better player then Fedetenko.

Gill had a pretty good season too... makes too much money, but he is a solid top 4 stay-at-home guy.

Anyhow... Sammy would have to be healthy and back scoring 25 points or so in his first 20 games to make this deal possible... i said as much in my opening post.

If Pittsburgh fans wouldn't like the deal, that is their perogative. i hated the Cam Neely for Barry Pederson deal when Boston made it. Didn't mean it wasn't a hell of a deal for the B's.

I was very unhappy when the Bruins didnt take a chance on picking up Shawn Heins a few years ago... again not a move that seemingly would have paid off.

Making deals isn't an exact science. Show me any GM you think is the best, and I will find probably just as many deals he made that had mixed results as ones that were clear wins.

I love the trade though... i asked HF posters to participate in a trade deadline prediction contest i ran here a couple years ago and gave fans 10 chances to guess at even one single trade that would actually happen. I had around 400 or so total trades proposed for the contest... not a single one happened.

We can all think we have all the answers... but there is always other people who think they have different answers. Might my moves destroy the Bruins?

Perhaps if disaster struck and the kids were all in some plane crash or something...

might the team be able to develop into the next Avalanche and win 3 cups in the next 10 years if we gutted today and built for the next decade? Maybe not... lots of teams are trying to win the cup... only 1 can each year.

I hope it will be my Bruins soon.
2004-2005
the year of the Bear
Go Bruins Go

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05-09-2004, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
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Trade 2 is terrible. It's gonna take more then Samsonovo to get the 2nd overall pick alone.

Yeah I agree!

Sammy and Hill wouldnt get the Pens' 1st alone.
He also wants Whitney and Kraft. :lol

Man, AlbertaBruin#24, don't ever propose something like this again.

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05-09-2004, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlbertaBruin#24
I would suggest it is because Lemieux was desperate to get some of the money owed him back. He thought if he stepped in to save the team, his name would get him a new arena and help him towards this end.

it wasn't enough. He even tried to play the last couple seasons hoping he would help turn things around that way... he didn't.

Lemieux is at the end of the line for being able to do it himself. His team is stripped of all marketable immediate assets. Even if he was to move the franchise, how much would it be attractive to a secondary market as is?

I personally don't think Lemieux wants the negative press that would accompany moving the team. In a perfect world he gets his money back ASAP and then finds some way to sell the team.

The new arena is really his golden goose.

Pittsburgh isn't going to build him that arena when their are no fans in the seats... no fans are going to sit in those seats unless there is some sort of chance to be entertained during the game.

It's a catch 22 spiral situation that isn't going to be fixed anytime soon letting the odd kid step up one at a time.

It is possible to build through the draft... but it takes 3-4 years minimum to even become a 500 team. How long has Calgary sucked before they were able to get back to the playoffs this year? How long did it take the Islanders for their bottom feeding days? What about Anaheim or Carolina?

A team can eventually get good enough in the draft to have a good run in the playoffs... but it is a very long haul to do it.

Can Lemieux last that long even with a new CBA?

1000 extra tickets sold for all 42 home games at even $50 dollars per ticket is over 2 million dollars pure revenue. Add in the concesions, parking, souvenieres and it is probably more like 3 million.

I would suggest that a ppg mr excitement guy like Samsonov would be good for those 1000 tickets.

Heck... if Pittsburgh told Sammy to score his goal... promoted Fleury to stop the other team... put in a total trap system like Minnesota... they might even be able to play 500 hockey and make the playoffs.

Playoff teams almost always draw another 1000-2000 more fans than teams that totally suck.

Lemieux isnt a billionare. A million here and a million there mean just as much to him as it does to the typical superstar player playing in the NHL these days.

Perhaps my trade idea isnt the best one possible for Pittsburgh... perhaps my reasoning isnt the same idea that the Penguins management would have themselves.. but if you wanted my reasoning in more detail, here it was.

Malkin is NHL ready and his potential is greater then Sammy.
Don't get me wrong, I am a big Sammy fan, but COME ON!

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05-11-2004, 11:46 AM
  #13
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No offense but those moves make no sense..... lets look at the ages of the key players involved..

Thornton - 24
Sammy - 25
Raycroft - 24
Boynton -25
Hilbert - 23

hmmm that looks like a young team right there....all proven players under or around 25 years old... why trade proven young players (except Hilbert) for unproven rookies... and get what ... 3-4 years younger...

Don't get me wrong.. I'm all for a young team... I'd get rid of the older players for draft picks then trading away any of the 5 mentioned above....

if you want to trade players away for rookies... why not trade the players away to the teams holding the #1 pick the next few years... that way.. you get NHL ready rookies....

but in short.. I'd have to say.... NO!!

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