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Loopholes in the New Rule??

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Old
05-01-2010, 04:17 PM
  #1
EvenSteven
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Loopholes in the New Rule??

Whether or not the Spits and Colts had a deal or not in the 1st round as some have suggested on the NOOF, at least the threat of manipulation should cause Branch and co to abolish or at least amend the rule.

The rule being if you deal your 1st rounder, because he won't sign with you, before Sept 1st, then you get a compensatory pick at the same position the following year.

Perhaps Rychel called up the Colts and suggested they come to an agreement. "Hey, tell us who to take at #20 (Webermin) and you guys draft Kerby at #21. Then, we trade you Webermin to you for a 2nd rounder. You then trade Kerby to us for a second rounder."

"We each get the player we wanted in the 1st round and then we also get compensatory picks in the 1st rouind next year which gives each or us two first round picks in the 2011 draft!!" (see the Lessio situation with NIA/OSH)

From what I understand, the above scenario is well within the rules as they currently stand today.

In fact, what is to stop three or four pairs of teams from doing the same thing in the same particular draft year.

For instance, between now and September 1st:
- The above Windsor / Barrie scenario happens.
- Kitchener and St.Mike's do the same thing with Marcantuomi and Ebert.
- Sudbury and Owen Sound do the same thing with Maidens and Campagna.

That would add six picks to next year's 1st round meaning each of the six teams above would get 2 1st rounders next year. As a result, whoever finishes 1st overall going into next year's draft will get the 27th pick of the draft which would be the last pick of the 1st round.

Actually, I wouldn't be totally surprised if that is what Kitchener and St.Mike's are up to!! You see, you consider the rumor that Ebert had a very short list of teams he would report to and of that group, the Rangers were supposed to be the team with the 1st shot at him in the draft.
Sounds like a possibility to me!

At the end of the day, if this becomes a trend, the league will have to do something about it.

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05-01-2010, 04:37 PM
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Actually, I thought it would have been good strategy for Niagara to take advantage of the rule and use one of their 1st rounders to draft a guy like Ebert. I was watching for it to happen! Then, deal him to a team he'll report to and have two 1st rounders again next year along with the assets gained from dealing Ebert.

Theoretically, they would repeat the process every year as long as the rule is in place.

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05-01-2010, 05:11 PM
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While I like the idea of drafting BPA and this rule helping out those teams that look for safe picks who are sure to report to draft the player that should be drafted at that spot I must agree that unfortunately there is a chance for abuse.

Barrie and Windsor are perfect examples of teams that will be mediocre in the next few seasons and with little in the way of high draft picks in the next few years the chance to gain an extra first rounder would certainly be tempting and a big boost in speeding up the rebuilding proccess, especially when it is a free pick.

There are a number of possibilities surrounding this pick including it being a Windsor/Barrie backroom deal, a Barrie ploy to gain from underhanded tactics or just Barrie feeling he was best suited for their team based on who was or was not left on their board at that point in time.

I don't know if there is a way to prevent it or prove it but if it could be proven then fines as well as losing their next first rounder plus the compensation pick or their next two first rounders if it is found out more than a year later. I would also consider things such as teams that do this or other things along these lines be prevented from bidding on special events for a lengthy period of time, five years for annual events and nine years (three hosting periods) for the Memorial Cup. Treat it seriously and deal with it seriously if this type of manipulation takes place.

As for this instance, I don't see Windsor willing to deal with Barrie on a plan like that. I do think it will be interesting to see how this all plays out though. I don't think Rychel will be able to keep his cool too long if he does feel he was shafted by Barrie... yet again.

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05-01-2010, 05:27 PM
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krazy kanuck
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Hello,

I contemplated this the other day on the Spitfires thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by krazy kanuck View Post
Nah, I think I probably forgot about it because it is a stupid rule. The Ice Dogs get value from the pick out of Oshawa and get a second first rounder this year. Seems like a wise strategy to draft who isn't going to report if you are in a rebuild year...
It really is a stupid rule. I had forgotten that I had also suggested (jockingly) that the Colts take Rychel:

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Originally Posted by krazy kanuck View Post
Anyway, I guess you can go back to contemplating whether or not the Spitfires take Rychel or not. If they don't, I hope the Colts take him and then deal him to the Spitfires for their first and second... Make Warren pay for it if he wants his boy, like Foligno had to...
Cheers,
Shawn

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05-01-2010, 05:40 PM
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krazy kanuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfaub View Post
As for this instance, I don't see Windsor willing to deal with Barrie on a plan like that. I do think it will be interesting to see how this all plays out though. I don't think Rychel will be able to keep his cool too long if he does feel he was shafted by Barrie... yet again.
I don't know, the more I think about it, the more I think this "Gentleman's Agreement" is ludicrous. That just gives one team an unfair advantage (not that it worked out for the Folignos). Whether the team is getting a player 1 pick early, 10 picks early or 100 picks early it's still draft manipulation.

Can you imagine that even being contemplated in any other league? Could you imagine every NHL team passing on the Sutter kids so their dad's could take them?

Best,
Shawn

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05-01-2010, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krazy kanuck View Post
I don't know, the more I think about it, the more I think this "Gentleman's Agreement" is ludicrous. That just gives one team an unfair advantage (not that it worked out for the Folignos). Whether the team is getting a player 1 pick early, 10 picks early or 100 picks early it's still draft manipulation.

Can you imagine that even being contemplated in any other league? Could you imagine every NHL team passing on the Sutter kids so their dad's could take them?

Best,
Shawn
Of course you think that now. Because your team did it. It's a defense mechanism so your brain doesn't explode.

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05-01-2010, 05:50 PM
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krazy kanuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottomatic View Post
Of course you think that now. Because your team did it. It's a defense mechanism so your brain doesn't explode.
No, here's what I posted yesterday:

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Originally Posted by krazy kanuck View Post
Two questions -

1. How does this work if two or more teams evaluate the value of the player differently?

2. How is that fair if your son is touted top three in the draft, but you're a top team and is picking late?

I know it happens, but something doesn't sound right...
I am really on the fence as to whether it should be allowed. I can't hire my sons at my work, we have a nepotism policy (as does almost every classy organization). On the other hand I don't like the idea of sending 15 and 16 year old kids away from home unnecessarily. Those are two conflicting issues and don't even contemplate the competitive issue. What if the Staals' dad had been a coach?

Cheers,
Shawn

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05-01-2010, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krazy kanuck View Post
No, here's what I posted yesterday:



I am really on the fence as to whether it should be allowed. I can't hire my sons at my work, we have a nepotism policy (as does almost every classy organization). On the other hand I don't like the idea of sending 15 and 16 year old kids away from home unnecessarily. Those are two conflicting issues and don't even contemplate the competitive issue. What if the Staals' dad had been a coach?

Cheers,
Shawn
If Staal's father had been coach or owner and his kids were all ranked first rounder he'd have had to draft them with their pick in the first round. If they were rated second rounders, they'd have to be drafted in the second.

It's not like the Spits were trying to get Kerby in the 15th round, but using their pick where he was rated.

And now Barrie has to pretend that he was the best player on their board and they want him in Barrie and will try and sell him on the franchise. Fat chance with that - Barrie either made the pick out of spite or because they know he will not report and want two picks next season in the deeper draft.

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05-01-2010, 06:03 PM
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As far as the compensatory picks go, they should change it to the last pick of the round, rather than only one pick after the original IMO. Though it wouldn't make any difference in this case.

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05-01-2010, 06:08 PM
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krazy kanuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottomatic View Post
If Staal's father had been coach or owner and his kids were all ranked first rounder he'd have had to draft them with their pick in the first round. If they were rated second rounders, they'd have to be drafted in the second.

It's not like the Spits were trying to get Kerby in the 15th round, but using their pick where he was rated.
Did they have a pick where he was rated? It seems to me that they may have had one before he was rated and one after where he was rated. I still haven't seen from you exactly where Rychel was ranked. It says first or second rounder - say that's, for the sake of argument, 30th. That's right in the middle, so absent seeing a list that seems fair to me.

The Spits then had the option of taking him at 20 or at 38 (I think). So at the 20th pick they're taking him 10 too early or at 38 they're taking him 8 late. Throw in that teams have different rankings, and I think you could make an argument that the Spits should have been taking him with their first pick even with this "gentleman's agreement". It's not like he was ranked 240th and was picked way out of where he would have been expected to go.

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Originally Posted by Ottomatic View Post
And now Barrie has to pretend that he was the best player on their board and they want him in Barrie and will try and sell him on the franchise. Fat chance with that - Barrie either made the pick out of spite or because they know he will not report and want two picks next season in the deeper draft.
Could be. I have no proof otherwise. Could also be that they wanted him, but why they think they could sign him is beyond me.

Cheers,
Shawn

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05-01-2010, 06:18 PM
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He was ranked 30th, the only defense I could see was that the Spits traded out of the 25th pick and should have kept it and took him there. However that loses it's weigh when Barrie took him 21st. I could have seen the team picking 26th taking Kerby and using that explanation, in sense saying "Windsor passed on him". However being ranked 30th means he was ranked as a second rounder, so the gentleman's agreement is the Spits can use their 2nd round pick on him.

Also where the Spits picked in the second round was before their natural position of second last in the round.

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05-01-2010, 06:19 PM
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krazy kanuck
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Official Statement

Here's the official statement from the Colts, as reported in the Examiner:

Quote:
"There's nothing behind it," Colts director of player personnel and head scout Darrell Woodley said. "We were strictly looking for the best player available."

The Colts and Spitfires are battling it out in the league final, with Windsor taking a 2-0 series lead onto home ice Sunday afternoon.

"Would it have made a difference if we weren't playing Windsor in the finals? No," Woodley said. "We felt that he was the best player available."
They also talk about the compensation as a fall back position, so that could be at least part of the motivation. Here's the whole article: http://www.thebarrieexaminer.com/Art...aspx?e=2560400

Best,
Shawn

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05-01-2010, 06:21 PM
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^What do you expect them to say? That's pretty much boilerplate. They also say they plan on selling him on their organization - they're not being serious.

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05-01-2010, 06:26 PM
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krazy kanuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottomatic View Post
He was ranked 30th, the only defense I could see was that the Spits traded out of the 25th pick and should have kept it and took him there. However that loses it's weigh when Barrie took him 21st.
If he was ranked 30th, in my view it's all onside. That's as close to the end of the first round as it is to the end of the second. In your mind where does that line end? What if he was ranked 24th? 22nd? Just because he's ranked in the 2nd round, the Spits pick at 20 was pretty close.

Plus I read somewhere here that the Colts (without a second round pick) were high on and looking at Webermin who the Spits appear to have taken too early for where he was rated. Maybe the Spits struck first...

Cheers,
Shawn

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05-01-2010, 06:28 PM
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krazy kanuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottomatic View Post
What do you expect them to say? That's pretty much boilerplate. They also say they plan on selling him on their organization - they're not being serious.
I expected them to say exactly what they said - I just posted it here for public consumption.

Cheers,
Shawn

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05-01-2010, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krazy kanuck View Post
Plus I read somewhere here that the Colts (without a second round pick) were high on and looking at Webermin who the Spits appear to have taken too early for where he was rated. Maybe the Spits struck first...
I bet the rumor would have been that the Colts were high on whichever player the Spits picked at #20.

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05-01-2010, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krazy kanuck View Post
Here's the official statement from the Colts, as reported in the Examiner:



They also talk about the compensation as a fall back position, so that could be at least part of the motivation. Here's the whole article: http://www.thebarrieexaminer.com/Art...aspx?e=2560400

Best,
Shawn
The compensation pick and whatever they think they can get out of Windsor as well.

I do agree with the rule and as I already said it is unfortunate that it will likely be abused and hopefully serious penalties will be put in place to deal with those abuses.

As far as where he was ranked all I can say is if he was ranked in the second round and Windsor had not picked in the second yet and only had one pick in the second then it is kind of a moot point. If Windsor had already picked once in the second and was using a second second rounder to get him then to me he would have been fair game.

As for the player that Windsor took in the first, I don't know anything about him or what he was ranked but I do know that teams do this all the time with players that are not family members of someone in the league.

Like I said if Barrie did this for underhanded reasons I think Rychel will find a way to get a little payback... report then demand a trade so there is no compensatory pick. As far as his career goes I am sure if Barrie wants to play hardball then there would likely be a spot in the USHL for him since he has dual citzenship. With Rychel's connections at all levels he will always get some attention where ever he plays so I don't think this will affect any chances of him being a pro one day if he has the potential to go that path.

If the reasons are underhanded I think Barrie lost this battle big time. I don't know how Rychel advising his son what to do would look from a tampering standpoint but he is his father so even that path may be cut off. If there are questions about the tampering though his mother and his advisor could always handle things.

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05-01-2010, 06:54 PM
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krazy kanuck
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfaub View Post
As far as where he was ranked all I can say is if he was ranked in the second round and Windsor had not picked in the second yet and only had one pick in the second then it is kind of a moot point. If Windsor had already picked once in the second and was using a second second rounder to get him then to me he would have been fair game.
I think the round is irrelevant compared to the actual ranking. Say a player is ranked 22nd (2nd round). His Dad's team is in first place so picks 20th and 40th. Why the hell should they get the guy at 40 when the pick at 20 is so much closer to the actual ranking?

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Originally Posted by cfaub View Post
Like I said if Barrie did this for underhanded reasons I think Rychel will find a way to get a little payback... report then demand a trade so there is no compensatory pick. As far as his career goes I am sure if Barrie wants to play hardball then there would likely be a spot in the USHL for him since he has dual citzenship.
I hope that doesn't happen. Whatever occurs, a 15 year old should be suffering because of a show-down between adults.

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Originally Posted by cfaub View Post
I don't know how Rychel advising his son what to do would look from a tampering standpoint but he is his father so even that path may be cut off.
This is the reason most organizations do have a nepotism policy.

Best,
Shawn

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05-01-2010, 06:59 PM
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Put it this way if Rychel does end up a Spitfire that will be the last time Windsor and Barrie do business. Barrie is quickly burning bridges with teams in the OHL. Not sure why they want to do business that way.

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05-01-2010, 07:03 PM
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Put it this way if Rychel does end up a Spitfire that will be the last time Windsor and Barrie do business. Barrie is quickly burning bridges with teams in the OHL. Not sure why they want to do business that way.
Because this was supposed to be their season and they're down 0-2. They'll probably just replace their GM and say "That guy was a real jackass, but our new guy is straight up so forget all the the old regime did".

Best revenge the Spits can have now is to win the series. Big game tomorrow hopefully they come out ready to go for all 60 minutes.

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05-01-2010, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Ottomatic View Post
Because this was supposed to be their season and they're down 0-2. They'll probably just replace their GM and say "That guy was a real jackass, but our new guy is straight up so forget all the the old regime did".

Best revenge the Spits can have now is to win the series. Big game tomorrow hopefully they come out ready to go for all 60 minutes.
I think the Kerby thing is probably to get in Windsor's head and get the compensatory pick. (Really, does anyone think Kerby will report)?

But the ********* management didn't just start this year. I believe Barrie also did something in the Mike Weber trade a few years back. We all remember the Matt Martin/Sarnia Sting fiasco, and this year with Mavric Parks and the Rangers.

So stroke Windsor (until they try to get Kerby), Sarnia, and Kitchener from Barrie's trading partners.

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05-01-2010, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ottomatic View Post
Because this was supposed to be their season and they're down 0-2. They'll probably just replace their GM and say "That guy was a real jackass, but our new guy is straight up so forget all the the old regime did".

Best revenge the Spits can have now is to win the series. Big game tomorrow hopefully they come out ready to go for all 60 minutes.
Reading this thread you seem to be taking this a little more personal than most Windsor/Barrie fans? Is there a particular reason for this? Just Wondering..

Anyways. Easy solution to this problem. Alter the rule so that If a player's rights are traded (like Lessio last year, and like Rychel might see happen this year) The compensatonary pick is void. They can take the 1st compensatory, or they can take the picks/prospects they would recieve in a trade.. one or the other. THis would remove all the planning and manipulating.

As for my direct opinion on Rychel, i think when Windsor decided to trade their early 2nd for a late 2nd then declare Kerby was giong to be their 2nd round pick, then drafting Webermin 20th Overall was kinda asking for it.

They basically used this whole "Gentleman's agreement" as an excuse to manipulate their picks so they could add picks (adding picks dropping from the top of the 2nd to the bottom of the 2nd getting extra picks assuming they were going to get Kerby no matter what.) Fact is, Kerby is a guy people ahve mentioned in the first round, being a late 1st talent. If Kerby is in the same world talent wise as Webermin then Windsor shouldn't have played with fire and tried to get another top round talent and extra draft picks just because Kerby's last name happened to be Rychel.

He was good enough to be a late round pick so this is kinda a message to other teams who think just because the kid is related to them that they can make a bunch of moves around him to de value the pick they use to take him as much as possible. As much of a laugh as I got when i saw this pick made, I doubt Barrie wastes a 1st round pick, with all the talented players still there. I've heard from multiple sources that Barrie wanted Adam Pelech, who is a pretty sure fire top 4 defenceman in this league 2 years from now, I doubt they gave up a chance to pick him JUST to stick it to the Spitfires, they must think Kerby has value, but how they think he could actually play on this team is beyond me. For what it's worth I doubt Barrie or Windsor are contenders the next couple years after this one unless they get the Mem cup, both teams are simply going to lose too much talent, while not having enough picks to trade for more to replace them, But the Rychel family dinner must be very interesting. I think Rychel reports and gets traded early January for a package of a pick or two and a decent young player. Maybe Duininick or Webermin?

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05-01-2010, 07:41 PM
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I believe the reason the league hired the Ex RCMP officer is to investigate any kind of manipulation in the draft. If any of these GM's pulled the trigger on one of these deals they had better be prepared to go under the bright white light to explain what they were doing.

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05-01-2010, 07:45 PM
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I think the Kerby thing is probably to get in Windsor's head and get the compensatory pick. (Really, does anyone think Kerby will report)?

But the ********* management didn't just start this year. I believe Barrie also did something in the Mike Weber trade a few years back. We all remember the Matt Martin/Sarnia Sting fiasco, and this year with Mavric Parks and the Rangers.

So stroke Windsor (until they try to get Kerby), Sarnia, and Kitchener from Barrie's trading partners.
I don't get their GM, he is basically going to need to be fired eventually. He has essentially severed ties with 25% of the OHL, and if he's doing this stuff now he's sure to continue with it in the future. Eventually they will need to get a whole new staff becasue other teams just flat out won't want to work with Barrie on anything.

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05-01-2010, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ry-Dogg View Post
As for my direct opinion on Rychel, i think when Windsor decided to trade their early 2nd for a late 2nd then declare Kerby was giong to be their 2nd round pick, then drafting Webermin 20th Overall was kinda asking for it.

They basically used this whole "Gentleman's agreement" as an excuse to manipulate their picks so they could add picks (adding picks dropping from the top of the 2nd to the bottom of the 2nd getting extra picks assuming they were going to get Kerby no matter what.) Fact is, Kerby is a guy people ahve mentioned in the first round, being a late 1st talent. If Kerby is in the same world talent wise as Webermin then Windsor shouldn't have played with fire and tried to get another top round talent and extra draft picks just because Kerby's last name happened to be Rychel.
Solid post. Came in to say the bolded part, was surprised to see them trade down in the second after saying they wanted to take him in the second. Also, taking a guy that was ranked below Kerby at 20 was kind of sketchy IMO. Great call changing the compensatory picks, once someone takes advantage of the rule that'll be the end of it.

End of the day, surprised Barrie took a player in the first that probably won't report. Really thought they needed a player they knew would come in and play for them. As for Windsor, solid draft. Especially if they can get some of Vail, Barber and even Deeley or Cortellessa to report.

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