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Brad Stuart and the playoffs... what happens?

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Old
05-02-2010, 09:49 PM
  #26
Athtar
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Originally Posted by ZDH View Post
and at the other end of the spectrum recently.......Kronwall
So ****ing true.

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05-02-2010, 10:08 PM
  #27
ArGarBarGar
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I'm sorry but he has not been special to me.

For starters, that penalty he took was just useless. Why even bother doing that when you know you could get called and it isn't going to help you defend against him for more than 5 seconds?

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Old
05-03-2010, 09:01 AM
  #28
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It's too early for this. Give Stu some time to make a couple more bad giveaways or leave a man uncovered. Yeah, he has his moments. But he also has... his moments.
I saw a stat last night during the game that Brad Stuart in the last 3 playoffs years is a plus +25 which is tops in the NHL. The guy is a playoff performer unlike his defence partner this year.

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05-03-2010, 09:10 AM
  #29
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I saw a stat last night during the game that Brad Stuart in the last 3 playoffs years is a plus +25 which is tops in the NHL. The guy is a playoff performer unlike his defence partner this year.
Z is +34 from the '08 playoffs to today. Franzen has a +26. Pavel +23. Nick, Nik, and Raf at +21. Cleary at +20. 8 of the top 10 are Wings. Sammy +24 (most of his +/- came from us) and Crosby +22 are the other two. Fil is 11th with +17.

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Old
05-03-2010, 10:11 AM
  #30
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I put this in the GDT, but it may be better suited to this thread:

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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Babs on the defense, as some of us noted here, Kronwall's disappearing act this season, offensively and defensively:



Malik on MLive was saying Lilja's playing time was reduced? I don't think I noticed:

Lilja TOI: 7:16, EV TOI: 3:24

Edit: Kronwall has about as much EV TOI as Ericsson, ~14 vs 12 for E. Rafalski leads with EV TOI at ~20mn, Lids/Stu with ~17. The totals for the big four were 28, 25, 24 (Stu), 20 (Kronner).

I think Babs knows all too well the situation on D, but why is Lebda benched? I did warn that against a speedy team, they'd have trouble not only defending but getting the puck out of their own end. They've been too easily bottled up when the pylons are out there.

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05-03-2010, 10:13 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I put this in the GDT, but it may be better suited to this thread:




I think Babs knows all too well the situation on D, but why is Lebda benched? I did warn that against a speedy team, they'd have trouble not only defending but getting the puck out of their own end. They've been too easily bottled up when the pylons are out there.
Lebda got destroyed in both Anaheim series. I think removing an Ericsson or a Lilja and placing a Lebda makes our inconsistent PK even more inconsistent.

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Old
05-03-2010, 12:07 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Lebda got destroyed in both Anaheim series. I think removing an Ericsson or a Lilja and placing a Lebda makes our inconsistent PK even more inconsistent.

The third pair cannot handle the speed. Whenever they are pressured, they cough up the puck. They are too easily bottled up in the defensive zone. See, I don't agree that Lebda is the liability some of you do because at least he can skate out of the zone w/o turning over the puck. That's what's hurting this pairing. If they do not have an *immediate* outlet, they cough it up.

Close games are all about creating chances by putting pressure on the other team. Right now, the Sharks are not only creating more pressure, but producing better results from it.

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05-03-2010, 12:33 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
The third pair cannot handle the speed. Whenever they are pressured, they cough up the puck. They are too easily bottled up in the defensive zone. See, I don't agree that Lebda is the liability some of you do because at least he can skate out of the zone w/o turning over the puck. That's what's hurting this pairing. If they do not have an *immediate* outlet, they cough it up.

Close games are all about creating chances by putting pressure on the other team. Right now, the Sharks are not only creating more pressure, but producing better results from it.
The 3rd pair has been together only sparingly and it wouldn't change with Lebda in the lineup.

Ericsson and/or Lilja aren't out there together often at all, it's the other 4 defensemen taking turns with them.

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05-03-2010, 12:47 PM
  #34
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The 3rd pair has been together only sparingly and it wouldn't change with Lebda in the lineup.

Ericsson and/or Lilja aren't out there together often at all, it's the other 4 defensemen taking turns with them.
Isn't there a reason for that? When Lilja-Lebda were paired up, they certainly played a lot more minutes than these two (14-16 min, iirc, per game).

This puts a bit more stress on the top four since their minutes must expand. It was huge mistake to take Lebda out of the lineup against teams that are good at pressuring and play a skill game.

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05-03-2010, 12:56 PM
  #35
Heaton
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Isn't there a reason for that? When Lilja-Lebda were paired up, they certainly played a lot more minutes than these two (14-16 min, iirc, per game).

This puts a bit more stress on the top four since their minutes must expand. It was huge mistake to take Lebda out of the lineup against teams that are good at pressuring and play a skill game.
Because he can skate? Lebda wouldn't make a bit of difference, especially when our PK has been terrible so far. Taking away a PK defensemen forcing more strain on the guys who are having a hard enough time as is would be foolish.

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Old
05-03-2010, 02:00 PM
  #36
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Because he can skate? Lebda wouldn't make a bit of difference, especially when our PK has been terrible so far. Taking away a PK defensemen forcing more strain on the guys who are having a hard enough time as is would be foolish.
Good God, people actually think that Brett freaking Lebda would make a difference in this series?

Beyond absurd.

The Wings are playing well. They have outscored the Sharks at ES for the series, and even their PK hasn't been bad. Detroit's 14-16 on the non 5-on-3 PK's.

The problem, obviously, is that they've been on at least one 5 on 3 PK a night in this series, they're -7 in powerplay chances through two games, and they are only 1 for 9 on the PP... not that Brett freaking Lebda hasn't been around to play 9 ES minutes.

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Old
05-03-2010, 04:16 PM
  #37
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Actually, I'd like to see Lebda-Lilja unless someone is going to tell me that Ericsson is better than Lebda at ES, or that he's better than Lilja on the PK.

Are we just going to ignore that Lilja played 7 min last night, about half on the PK, and on a night when the PK was playing, you know, most of the game.

@Heaton. You keep saying things as if you're citing facts.

Lebda played 13:20 min/gm in the playoffs last year; E played 18:43 but also had PP time. The year before, Lebda was just under 13min/gm and Lilly played 14:05, but 2:25 of that was on the PK.

This year...... Lilja is playing 10:15 min/gm, with 2:10 of that on the PK. Ericsson has averaged 12:36, 9:42 at ES, 1:04 PK, 0:46 PP.

So yes, I am saying that Lebda is far superior at ES, and if Lilja is going to be scrubbed from the PK, what the hell is he supposed to be doing out there other than getting ESunlin excited? I mean, it's not like being good at even strength play is a liability seeing that it normally takes up most of the game.

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05-03-2010, 04:19 PM
  #38
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i've always liked stuart. didnt he actually turn down an offer from the wings in the 06 or 07 offseason?

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Old
05-03-2010, 04:28 PM
  #39
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Here's Lilja's play by period:

Per SHF AVG TOI EV TOT PP TOT SH TOT

1 5 00:22 01:52 01:07 00:00 00:45

2 4 00:55 03:41 01:33 00:00 02:08

3 3 00:34 01:43 00:44 00:00 00:59

TOT 12 00:36 07:16 03:24 00:00 03:52


The team had approximately 20 min of PK time, one overlapping, so say 18 min to kill b4 any goals scored, Lilja played a total 3:52 of PK time. Lids and Stu did ~7 min; Kronner for 4.5, and then Raf and E picked up about a min & half each.

I would say that yes, if you need your top guys to help on special teams this much, then it might be nice if they could catch their breath at ES.

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05-03-2010, 07:37 PM
  #40
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So yes, I am saying that Lebda is far superior at ES, and if Lilja is going to be scrubbed from the PK, what the hell is he supposed to be doing out there other than getting ESunlin excited? I mean, it's not like being good at even strength play is a liability seeing that it normally takes up most of the game.
Oh God. Brett Lebda.



This year is crazy.

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05-03-2010, 08:15 PM
  #41
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Ya, cause Lilja is worth $1.25 m, about twice as much money mind you, and can play 7 minutes in a key playoff game.


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05-03-2010, 08:18 PM
  #42
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Ya, cause Lilja is worth $1.25 m, about twice as much money mind you, and can play 7 minutes in a key playoff game.

How many minutes did Lebda play? 0? That's like infinitely less hockey played.

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05-03-2010, 08:26 PM
  #43
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How many minutes did Lebda play? 0? That's like infinitely less hockey played.

Yes, but when Lebda played, the Wings won a Cup and almost won the second time. He was a constant in both. Lilly and E? Not so much.


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Old
05-03-2010, 08:28 PM
  #44
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By the way, is ANYBODY going to comment on Lilja's minutes?

What is Babs doing? Is Lilly injured? Using a guy who usually plays 14-16 min/gm for half that, and almost not at all on the PK is at least worth discussing in and of itself.

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05-03-2010, 08:38 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
By the way, is ANYBODY going to comment on Lilja's minutes?

What is Babs doing? Is Lilly injured? Using a guy who usually plays 14-16 min/gm for half that, and almost not at all on the PK is at least worth discussing in and of itself.
I don't think he's injured.

I heard Babs say it was because Marleau was put on Malhotra's line. He said it made that line "suddenly dangerous" and he wanted to make sure he had a top 4 d-man on the ice at all times so the 3rd paring had their shifts split.

You would figure, us being on the PK all game would have caused his minutes to go up but we had everyone killing off those penalties. So I can see how his minutes took a hit.

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05-03-2010, 08:58 PM
  #46
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I don't think he's injured.

I heard Babs say it was because Marleau was put on Malhotra's line. He said it made that line "suddenly dangerous" and he wanted to make sure he had a top 4 d-man on the ice at all times so the 3rd paring had their shifts split.
Well, if everyone were to do that, why have six D? You can't play your top four the entire game. Once upon a time, Lebda and Lilja were fine in those situations. Or last year, the only option was to mix Lebda and E (see TOI).

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You would figure, us being on the PK all game would have caused his minutes to go up but we had everyone killing off those penalties. So I can see how his minutes took a hit.
Babs increased every top four D's PK minutes, and reduced to almost nothing the guy that's touted as one of the main PK'ers.


Anyway, I've been saying for a while now that that pairing could be exploited, and Babs answer is to work the top four harder. Okay.

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05-04-2010, 10:22 AM
  #47
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Yes, but when Lebda played, the Wings won a Cup and almost won the second time. He was a constant in both. Lilly and E? Not so much.

is exactly the appropriate reaction to your comment.

The amount of relevance you ascribe to a nothing-more-than-a-third-pairing guy is amusing, to say the least.

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05-04-2010, 10:34 AM
  #48
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
is exactly the appropriate reaction to your comment.

The amount of relevance you ascribe to a nothing-more-than-a-third-pairing guy is amusing, to say the least.

You're missing the overarching point. There's a reason a team has 12-13 forwards and 6-7 D. They're human, not machine. If a coach has to bench the guys who are supposed to offer relief to the top four because moving one player made the line "suddenly dangerous"... then, Houston, we've got a problem. The Pens rolled three dangerous lines last year, and just in case you forgot, so did the Wings. What if somehow the Wings get past the Sharks, is it going to be easier against the Hawks or Nucks? You need 6 defensemen who can handle it.

Don't say I didn't tell you this is exactly what would happen though.

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05-04-2010, 10:35 AM
  #49
HockeyinHD
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By the way, is ANYBODY going to comment on Lilja's minutes?

What is Babs doing? Is Lilly injured? Using a guy who usually plays 14-16 min/gm for half that, and almost not at all on the PK is at least worth discussing in and of itself.
The problem is your analysis of the defenseman minutes is flawed.

First, any direct IT/g between 2010 and 2009 is flawed because Rafalski missed 5 games in 2009 and was limited in a couple others. Also, Lidstrom was balled. Obviously, that's going to result in quite a lot of IT going to players who would not ordinarily get it.

Second, Lilja was on the PK for 2:25 a game in 2008. He's on the PK 2:10 in 2010. I don't see some great big conspiracy there, really.

Third, Detroit was behind in the third period. So, since they were behind in the third period, Rafalski got almost 50% of the SH IT he's had for the whole playoffs to date in Game 2 against the Sharks. I suspect that if Detroit was ahead, like they were in the second period where Lilja had more PK IT, we would have seen Lilja PKing in the third rather than Rafalski.

Fourth, it was just one game. Heck, you're essentially just talking about one PERIOD of one game. I mean, get real.

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05-04-2010, 10:46 AM
  #50
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Sure, let's see how much IT he pulls down tonight.

Rafalski on the PK is like waving the white towel.

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