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Old
05-12-2004, 11:18 AM
  #26
Seachd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quat
He is definitely not liked around the league, but other than the Moore punch you're wrong to suggest that Bertuzzi is a dirty player.
But doesn't doing one of the dirtiest things in the history of the league automatically make him a dirty player?

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05-12-2004, 11:30 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seachd
But doesn't doing one of the dirtiest things in the history of the league automatically make him a dirty player?
Absolutely!
At least as much as person driving drunk makes him/her a drunk driver.

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05-12-2004, 03:20 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seachd
But doesn't doing one of the dirtiest things in the history of the league automatically make him a dirty player?
Well, it certainly does on the Oilers board.

So then Nickolishin (sp?), or whoever it was that jumped on top of Bertuzzi and started sucker punching him in an effort to get him off Moore is a dirty player as well? Obviously not. Posters that call Bertuzzi a dirty hockey players are just hyping one incident. This is hockey after all... not tennis. A dirty player would be someone who consistantly uses dirty techniques during games throughout his career. Just because you do or do not like Bertuzzi, well sorry to say it has no bearing on how he plays hockey. I would be the first to admit Todd is far from intelligent, and certainly his sucker punch stands as one of the stupidest decisions I've seen a pro hockey player make. But the beyond that it's just histerionics.

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05-12-2004, 03:29 PM
  #29
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you can't be Bertuzzi without being dirty

he's the in your face, never back down kind of player, of course he's going to be dirty

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05-12-2004, 06:12 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quat
Posters that call Bertuzzi a dirty hockey players are just hyping one incident. This is hockey after all... not tennis. A dirty player would be someone who consistantly uses dirty techniques during games throughout his career. Just because you do or do not like Bertuzzi, well sorry to say it has no bearing on how he plays hockey. I would be the first to admit Todd is far from intelligent, and certainly his sucker punch stands as one of the stupidest decisions I've seen a pro hockey player make. But the beyond that it's just histerionics.
What about other dirty plays Bertuzzi has done in his career, or this? ...

Quote:
This isn't a one-time 'I snapped' kind of determination for Bertuzzi. There is history here. There is a background. There are stories out there to be told.

Like the time in 1991, playing in the Northern Ontario midget championships, when his team was beaten out in the finals by Sault Ste. Marie and he chased the winning team's bus out of the parking lot, swearing and pounding on the windows, out of control.

The next year, his first in the Ontario Hockey League, Bertuzzi missed the end of that season and the beginning of the next when he was suspended 15 games for kicking a Kitchener player.

The year after that, in his own locker room, for no apparent reason other than jealousy, he punched out teammate Jeff O'Neill, who at the time was Guelph's prized first-round pick.

In the NHL, Bertuzzi punched linesman Jean Morin in a 1996 scuffle and ended up suspended for three games before losing 10 more games to suspension for jumping the bench to attack a Colorado player in 2001.

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Old
05-12-2004, 06:43 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HemskyFreak83
you can't be Bertuzzi without being dirty

he's the in your face, never back down kind of player, of course he's going to be dirty
Well then it's pretty obvious that we have a different opinion about what constitutes "dirty".

What you've just described to me is aggressive, solid hockey. Dirty means cheating and putting other players at risk. Bertuzzi has hurt players, but none of those hits were borderline... he just used his size. He doesn't head hunt, or slew foot, or board guys with any kind of regularity at all.

As for York's post, those are all pretty good examples of a guy who can't control his temper don't you think? What exactly does punching a team mate or a linesman have to do with playing dirty? Again, those are all good examples of a guy who can't control his temper and is rather stupid.

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05-12-2004, 06:49 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quat
As for York's post, those are all pretty good examples of a guy who can't control his temper don't you think? What exactly does punching a team mate or a linesman have to do with playing dirty? Again, those are all good examples of a guy who can't control his temper and is rather stupid.
I'm just pointing out that his temper does get the best of him and has led to other dirty and/or questionable plays on the ice.

With that said, and with what I said in the other thread, this is just a difference of opinions... I don't want to get into a long debate up in hurr, so I'll just say that I respect your opinion and everyone elses and hope you do the same for mine.

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05-12-2004, 07:30 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quat
Well then it's pretty obvious that we have a different opinion about what constitutes "dirty".

What you've just described to me is aggressive, solid hockey. Dirty means cheating and putting other players at risk. Bertuzzi has hurt players, but none of those hits were borderline... he just used his size. He doesn't head hunt, or slew foot, or board guys with any kind of regularity at all.

As for York's post, those are all pretty good examples of a guy who can't control his temper don't you think? What exactly does punching a team mate or a linesman have to do with playing dirty? Again, those are all good examples of a guy who can't control his temper and is rather stupid.
You still haven't addressed the fact that he jumped Scott Parker from behind and sucker-punched him too. What's your excuse for that if it isn't another prime example of an over-the-top "dirty play"?

I can't even think of two times that he has dropped the gloves and gone toe-to-toe with anyone and yet he has two wraparound punches under his belt. There's something to be proud of

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aggressive, solid hockey
:lol

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05-12-2004, 08:44 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oi'll say!
You still haven't addressed the fact that he jumped Scott Parker from behind and sucker-punched him too. What's your excuse for that if it isn't another prime example of an over-the-top "dirty play"?

I can't even think of two times that he has dropped the gloves and gone toe-to-toe with anyone and yet he has two wraparound punches under his belt. There's something to be proud of

:lol
As I pointed out earlier, a player coming to another players defence doesn't make it dirty. If you want to call Bertuzzi pulling Parker off Jovanovski "dirty", well then that certainly explains where you're coming from. Two "wraparound" punches indeed. I take you are suggesting that Bertuzzi was afraid to fight Moore or Parker and that's why he acted in that manner. That's got no foundation in reality at all. Anyhow, it's pretty clear I'm not going to convince you to change your mind, so I'll let it go.

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05-12-2004, 09:14 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quat
As I pointed out earlier, a player coming to another players defence doesn't make it dirty. If you want to call Bertuzzi pulling Parker off Jovanovski "dirty", well then that certainly explains where you're coming from. Two "wraparound" punches indeed. I take you are suggesting that Bertuzzi was afraid to fight Moore or Parker and that's why he acted in that manner. That's got no foundation in reality at all. Anyhow, it's pretty clear I'm not going to convince you to change your mind, so I'll let it go.
But did you not say that Nickolishin was a dirty player for jumping on Bertuzzi after he punced Moore.?

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05-12-2004, 09:25 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quat
As I pointed out earlier, a player coming to another players defence doesn't make it dirty. If you want to call Bertuzzi pulling Parker off Jovanovski "dirty", well then that certainly explains where you're coming from. Two "wraparound" punches indeed.
You're living in dreamland quat, Bertuzzi threw a punch at Parker when he went to "rescue" Jovo in case you don't recall. Then he clung to Parker's back like a baby koala.
Quote:
I take you are suggesting that Bertuzzi was afraid to fight Moore or Parker and that's why he acted in that manner. That's got no foundation in reality at all. Anyhow, it's pretty clear I'm not going to convince you to change your mind, so I'll let it go.
Yes, I am "suggesting" that a guy who throws more punches from behind than he does face-to-face doesn't fit into the "aggressive, solid hockey" category. He fits into the "dirty, cowardly hockey" category. Dontcha think?

His new title - Bert, dch

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05-12-2004, 11:14 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBrew
But did you not say that Nickolishin was a dirty player for jumping on Bertuzzi after he punced Moore.?

Quote:
So then Nickolishin (sp?), or whoever it was that jumped on top of Bertuzzi and started sucker punching him in an effort to get him off Moore is a dirty player as well? Obviously not.
I was trying to say (and thought I did... though not clearly enough), that players who come to the aid of other players shouldn't necessarily be called "dirty" just because they are the third player involved. The example was given of a player who suckerpunched someone, but we would certainly defend that behaviour. Using the example of Bertuzzi coming to Jovo's aid was sort of lame IMO.

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05-12-2004, 11:28 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oi'll say!
You're living in dreamland quat, Bertuzzi threw a punch at Parker when he went to "rescue" Jovo in case you don't recall. Then he clung to Parker's back like a baby koala.Yes, I am "suggesting" that a guy who throws more punches from behind than he does face-to-face doesn't fit into the "aggressive, solid hockey" category. He fits into the "dirty, cowardly hockey" category. Dontcha think?

His new title - Bert, dch
First of all, Bertuzzi isn't afraid of anyone in the league... so if you want to believe that he's wimp then go ahead... obviously you're not really interested in anything but your own opinion. Parker is one incident... and I don't recall the way you do... but then I don't recall it all that clearly either. But there seems to be a real lack of anything else supporting your conviction.

As for Moore... Bertuzzi spent a fair amount of time trying his best to get Moore to fight him before he finally suffered one of his not so uncommon brain cramps and screwed Moore, himself, his team and their fans by suckerpunching him. The Bertuzzi you are depicting would have simply come up behind him without any notice and slugged him. Sorry, but it didn't happen that way.

Again, saying that Bertuzzi "throws more punches from behind", is just wrong, but it clearly makes you feel better to pigeon hole Bertuzzi as a dirty hockey player. I don't really understand why, but you are certainly welcome to your opinion.

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05-12-2004, 11:50 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quat
The Bertuzzi you are depicting would have simply come up behind him without any notice and slugged him. Sorry, but it didn't happen that way.
Uhh.... that is EXACTLY what happened. It doesn't matter if he has asked him 50 times before or if he had his agent call Moores agent to tell Moore he wanted to fight him - Bertuzzi skated up behind him after the game was out of hand and WITH OUT ANY NOTICE punched him from behind - that is EXACTLY what happened regardless of what he had said or asked Moore leading up to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quat
he finally suffered one of his not so uncommon brain cramps and screwed Moore, himself, his team and their fans
Now, the whole point of this thread, is pretty much answered in your own defense of him. "not so uncommon" would make him detrimental to the team.

Also, you say that's not the kind of player he is.... but if it's not so uncommon... then how is he not that kind of player?? Doesn't make sense.

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05-13-2004, 01:39 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thome_26
Uhh.... that is EXACTLY what happened. It doesn't matter if he has asked him 50 times before or if he had his agent call Moores agent to tell Moore he wanted to fight him - Bertuzzi skated up behind him after the game was out of hand and WITH OUT ANY NOTICE punched him from behind - that is EXACTLY what happened regardless of what he had said or asked Moore leading up to it.


Now, the whole point of this thread, is pretty much answered in your own defense of him. "not so uncommon" would make him detrimental to the team.

Also, you say that's not the kind of player he is.... but if it's not so uncommon... then how is he not that kind of player?? Doesn't make sense.

Go back and read a little more carefully.

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05-14-2004, 12:39 AM
  #41
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Quat, your determination to defend your hero is admirable up to a certain point but it's starting to look delusional (Delusion [dee loo zhun] psychiatry a belief held in the face of evidence to the contrary, that is resistant to all reason).

You have no facts whatsoever, your best defense is just to say "Parker is one incident... and I don't recall the way you do... but then I don't recall it all that clearly either". Nice try dude, the fact still stands that Bert is now a two-time suckerpuncher.

Quote:
Again, saying that Bertuzzi "throws more punches from behind", is just wrong, but it clearly makes you feel better to pigeon hole Bertuzzi as a dirty hockey player. I don't really understand why, but you are certainly welcome to your opinion.
Like, DUH! Do the math quat. Zero fights, two suckerpunches.

If Bert was a co-worker of yours and he was mad at you would you feel safe with him behind you? Fat chance, you'd be wearing a bicycle helmet with a rear-view mirror.

Don't ask me why, but I'm going to explain some things to you that you clearly don't understand.

1) Bertuzzi punching Parker from behind and doing the baby koala act while Parker and Jovo were having an even fight was not admirable.

2) Bertuzzi's "intervention" in a fair fight does not bear any resemblance to the way Nikolishin came to the aid of Moore. Moore was in dire straits and was completely unable to defend himself. That you can even compare the two acts is just freakin' sickening quat, you should be completely ashamed of yourself for offering up such drivel.

3) Bert's suckerpunch on Moore was one of the dirtiest incidents in recent nhl history and it was no accident. His fist hit the guy's head. Bert's suckerpunch on Parker was unnecessary, dirty and pathetic. Bert is known for swinging his stick and not known for fighting. It's safe to say that there's more Claude than Mario in Bert's game. Way more. In order for you to think that Bert is not a dirty player you either haven't watched him play very much or your memory is very selective.


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05-14-2004, 05:17 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oi'll say!
Quat, your determination to defend your hero is admirable up to a certain point but it's starting to look delusional (Delusion [dee loo zhun] psychiatry a belief held in the face of evidence to the contrary, that is resistant to all reason).

Sure pal, your overwelming evidence is really convincing. Whatever you say. My hero... right... that must be it. I dont' particularily care for any player that whines and *****es and always has a sour look on his mug like Bertuzzi, but because I don't call the guy a dirty HOCKEY PLAYER, then he must be my hero. Do you actually feel smarter looking up words in the dictionary? This must mean that anyone who disagrees with you is delusional? Yup, you are convincing.

You have no facts whatsoever, your best defense is just to say "Parker is one incident... and I don't recall the way you do... but then I don't recall it all that clearly either". Nice try dude, [B]the fact still stands that Bert is now a two-time suckerpuncher.

What do you mean I have no facts? You're the one calling Bertuzzi dirty for two instances, one of which I completely disagree with (Parker), so how is it I'm supposed to defend what you're saying? It's clear you think Bertuzzi is dirty and no amount of me pointing to how he actually plays hockey on the ice is going to change your narrow mind now is it? My best defence... yeah right. You're the one accusing Bertuzzi, not me!

Like, DUH! Do the math quat. Zero fights, two suckerpunches.

Zero fights? You mean the math of you're right I'm wrong? The delusional stuff you were refering to earlier? I actually do watch and pay attention to a lot of hockey throughout the year, the majority of it involving the Canucks. Bertuzzi has and does confront players and most of it comes to nothing because no one wants to fight the guy. Johnson against the Wild in the playoffs last year... though not much happened because old Matty fell down rather quickly. If you're suggesting that Bertuzzi is afraid to actually fight someone then you should stop acting like you know anything about him.

If Bert was a co-worker of yours and he was mad at you would you feel safe with him behind you? Fat chance, you'd be wearing a bicycle helmet with a rear-view mirror.

Are you serious? I would have absolutely no fear being around Bertuzzi in a work place. You on the other hand, with your obviously unbalanced and inventive way of looking at the world would give me pause. In case you still haven't figured it out, both of the examples you have given are Bertuzzi sticking up for his co-workers. It's obvious then that even if I followed you skewed view of Bertuzzi I would still feel safe.

Don't ask me why, but I'm going to explain some things to you that you clearly don't understand.

Oh thank you thankyou thankyou for pandering to me!!! Gee, and to think expecting to have a civil discussion should be so silly.

1) Bertuzzi punching Parker from behind and doing the baby koala act while Parker and Jovo were having an even fight was not admirable.

It's clear that you and I completely disagree on what took place. If you think Parker jumping Jovanovski is somehow a "fair fight", then we might as well just skip it. The Bertuzzi punch from behind on Parker is a joke. He was basically pulling Parker off Jovo... go make up something better... like maybe he stabbed him or something.


2) Bertuzzi's "intervention" in a fair fight does not bear any resemblance to the way Nikolishin came to the aid of Moore. Moore was in dire straits and was completely unable to defend himself. That you can even compare the two acts is just freakin' sickening quat, you should be completely ashamed of yourself for offering up such drivel.

Stuff the sickening crap in your hat Oil'say. Both were instances of a team mate coming to help another. Are you suggesting that Nickolishin knew the extent of Moores injury when all he could see was Bertuzzi's back? This is what really pisses me off most about posters like you. You insinuate the lamest crap about someone who disagrees with your opinion. It's pathetic really. Then calling me sickening... real smart. You should be ashamed to trot out this crap.

3) Bert's suckerpunch on Moore was one of the dirtiest incidents in recent nhl history and it was no accident. His fist hit the guy's head. Bert's suckerpunch on Parker was unnecessary, dirty and pathetic. Bert is known for swinging his stick and not known for fighting. It's safe to say that there's more Claude than Mario in Bert's game. Way more. In order for you to think that Bert is not a dirty player you either haven't watched him play very much or your memory is very selective.

Where exactly did I say that the suckerpunch to Moore was an accident? What's with a comment like that exactly? I don't get it... I disagree with you as to Bertuzzi's style of hockey, and suddenly I think the Moore suckerpunch was an accident?

Now Bertuzzi is know for swinging his stick is he? Really? Funny, as a guy who doesn't particularily care for Bertuzzi, you'd think that I would have noticed stuff like that, since I watch most of the Canucks games. Oh wait a minute... you're just making that part up! Like you made the stuff up about how I was a Bertuzzi fan, and how I thought that the Moore suckerpunch was an accident.

You've convinced me of what?

You may not like Bertuzzi and I may not like Bertuzzi, but that doesn't make him a dirty hockey player. NOR does one incredibly stupid decision make him a dirty hockey player. It makes him at times, a very stupid person, and I don't have much of an argument against that... because that's pretty much what I feel about Bertuzzi. Having a bad temper doesn't make someone a dirty hockey player.

Tell you what.... why not ask yourself what defines a dirty hockey player, and then see if that definition fits Bertuzzi? That would seem to make the most sense.

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05-14-2004, 07:19 PM
  #43
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You're right quat. I tried my best to convince myself that suckerpunching people from behind was wrong, or dirty, but you've opened my eyes to how heroic it can be.

Todd Bertuzzi should wear a cape and leotards and go around the city punching evil in the back of the head.

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05-14-2004, 07:45 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oi'll say!
You're right quat. I tried my best to convince myself that suckerpunching people from behind was wrong, or dirty, but you've opened my eyes to how heroic it can be.

Todd Bertuzzi should wear a cape and leotards and go around the city punching evil in the back of the head.
lol nice answer smart boy.

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05-14-2004, 07:50 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by quat
lol nice answer smart boy.
Actually its the perfect answer. Its one of those Check Mate answers that leaves you with nothing else to say but an indepth "lol nice answer smart boy"

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05-14-2004, 08:12 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by quat
You may not like Bertuzzi and I may not like Bertuzzi, but that doesn't make him a dirty hockey player. NOR does one incredibly stupid decision make him a dirty hockey player.
You keep referring to his "one" mistake.. how many incidents have posters in this thread mentioned now? A lot more than the single sucker-punch to the back of Moore's head. You make it seem like Bertuzzi is a perfect angel who lost his temper on one occasion and that is far from the truth.

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05-14-2004, 09:36 PM
  #47
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1) Quat, I had a hard time believing Crawford, Naslund, Cooke et al when they were commending Todd's actions in the Parker/Jovo fight. 1st of all, the linesmen are there to break up uneven fights and that tilt was not uneven. 2nd, Bert could have just pulled Parker off of him if that was the case but he got a freebie in there. 3rd, noone else in the hockey world saw it your way except for the folks tuned into the Canucks' propaganda machine.

I'll admit that it wasn't the hardest suckerpunch ever, he could have done better if he really tried, but he still did it.

2)
Quote:
both of the examples you have given are Bertuzzi sticking up for his co-workers.
That's wrong and you have to be able to understand that quat.

If Moore was a proven thug like C Lemieux then I'd surely be a bit quicker to condemn his hit on Nazzy, I'd even say that some nastiness could be warranted in return, but he made one borderline hit that I know of (do you know of any others?) and it wasn't even bad enough to earn him a suspension after review by the league. The only thing that will make that hit memorable 5 years from now is what happened three weeks later, imo and that of the league.

Anyways, Cooke "stuck up" for his teammate, he dropped his gloves and went about his business like a man (for once). What Bert did was not "sticking up for" anyone, it was just dirty. To say it was stupid is not completely accurate because what you're doing is making an assumption on behalf of Todd himself. You're essentially saying that he didn't know any better, that he really didn't think about what he was doing, or that he didn't intend to injure Moore. You don't know any such thing quat. What we all know is that Todd had three weeks in between times, he had a prior game to exact a more acceptable form of revenge, and the act didn't come in the heat of some form of exchange either. It happened as Moore was skating up the ice, and it was without any doubt dirty.

3) Is Bert a dirty player or just stupid? Well, could punching someone in the head from behind ever really be an honest mistake? Would a reasonable man ever just assume "Hey, maybe this guy wants to be suckerpunched"? In case you're wondering, I'll just say "No, thanks" in advance.

Dirty.

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05-14-2004, 09:41 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say!
Dirty.
The emoticon made your post..

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05-14-2004, 09:56 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Cerebral
The emoticon made your post..
Lol! I haven't stuck my tongue out at anyone since I was 26, I forgot how much fun it was.

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05-14-2004, 10:45 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerebral
You keep referring to his "one" mistake.. how many incidents have posters in this thread mentioned now? A lot more than the single sucker-punch to the back of Moore's head. You make it seem like Bertuzzi is a perfect angel who lost his temper on one occasion and that is far from the truth.
I have never refered to his suckerpunch on Moore as a quote "mistake". I was trying to suggest that that was one on ice incident that would certainly go towards calling a Bertuzzi a dirty player, but since it was really the only incident of it's kind then it really doesn't make him a dirty player.

I don't see where you get the sense I'm suggesting Bertuzzi is some kind of angel.... there's a big difference in my mind between a dirty hockey player and Todd Bertuzzi and then someone like Joe Sakic. I've pointed out that Bertuzzi's biggest short coming is his thought process, and I'm pretty sure that most hockey people would agree on that. I've said what I thought a dirty hockey player was, and Bertuzzi doesn't fit that bill. That doesn't make his hit on Moore acceptable in the least! I don't really understand why you guys have a problem with this opinion. I'm not condoning what Bertuzzi did in anyway... I just don't see how the examples you give effect the rest of his play. If they do for you guys, well fine... it doesn't for me. Saying things like Bertuzzi is known for his stickwork or he's always sucker punching guys is simply wrong. Just because someone doesn't like Bertuzzi shouldn't mean he is immediately filed away as a dirty player. IMO.

How about Pavel Bures elbow shot to the head during the 94 playoffs? I've never heard anyone call him a dirty player, thought that certainly was a dirty hit. That's because Pavel Bure isn't a dirty player. Doesn't that make sense? Blind siding a player with an elbow to the head... knocking him out of the series (and hockey all together?), certainly must be right up there as an extremely dirty play... and yet it's obvious that Bures game isn't about playing dirty.

Would you say that Doug Weight is a dirty player? Didn't he cross check someone in the face? Hadn't he had another stick infraction? Do you concider him a dirty player? He's borderline for me... but honestly I think that's more to do with my anger at him for never applogizing to Sedin than the reality of his play.

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