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Tootoo family sues police

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Old
05-11-2004, 05:21 PM
  #26
punchy1
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So, I am astonished that some feel that the tootoos are right for suing the gun owner/family friend.

I hope that you also support that same person suing the tootoos for the emotional distress caused by their sons actions when he took a weapon that he were given NO PERMISSION to use and especially not to kill his self with. I hope you support that persons family in their suit as well as whoever found the young man and the distress that finding his dead body caused.


My point is this, I admire tootoo and his pride in his origin as well as his grit but, this is nonsense. My mates kid brother got killed/killed his self playing army when they were 16. He took his mates Da's gun out of the shelf thinking it empty and pretended to play russian roullete ala the deer hunter. The one in the chamber killed him.

Tragic? Absolutely, he were a right smart lad. Did his parents sue the family who held the gun? Of course not and that case actually has total reason for that action.

Why not, in the end, the lad who pulled the trigger were their son. They had spent a lifetime raising him not to mess about with guns. The lad and that family moved away (though his older brother is still my mate) due to the shame of the experience.


I only tell about that make the point that in that situation where the parents who owned that gun should have been sued under todays letigious societal rules, that lad made the mistake and everyone suffered due to it. Tragic absolutely. Frustrating, yes, his parents and my mate talked about that gun and why it were out for a long time but, they had a hard time blaming that family for their sons mistake.


What tootoo done were HIS own doing. Period. The police released him to a family freind who left him to sleep it off (best I can gather) he took a gun from that person without their permission and killed his self.

Tragic? Yes. Freind of the family's fault? I can't see how under any circumstances that it could be.

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05-11-2004, 05:24 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolemite
Well, the fact of the matter is that the Brandon Police failed to follow written procedure regarless of how old he was.
Can you please tell me what is the procedure they didnt follow.
Also please tell me, do I take it that you believe every drunk guy the police come into contact with should be incarcerated & not released until 12-24 hours later?

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05-11-2004, 05:29 PM
  #28
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so if the police had kept him overnight he never would have done this later in life? the next day perhaps?

he had an issue that no one noticed apparently - sue everyone that he came in contact with because they might have been the cause of his depression

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05-11-2004, 05:36 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thestonedkoala
Terrence probably didn't really understand what he was doing when he was drunk. He was depressed and then shot himself.
Come on -- its a gun!! I have hunted for years and am still very aware of what a gun can do to an animal let alone a human at point blank range. Taking the gun is in own fault as is pulling the trigger.

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05-11-2004, 05:53 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy
do I take it that you believe every drunk guy the police come into contact with should be incarcerated & not released until 12-24 hours later?
Apparently, many people here feel that should be the case and this is beyond me.

Undermanned law enforcement forces around the world should hold the hand of poor 22 years old dudes arrested from driving under the influence

What the hell is this? Some people are so delusional, they're calling this loser a MINOR. He was 22 years old, for chrissakes. Weere they supposed to pamper him like a newborn? The dude was not even a victim, and as it is the system has all the trouble in the world giving a modicum of support and ressources to VICTIMS.

Nothing is owed to the Tootoos. They can take a long hard look in the mirror, see if they wouldn't be better off sueing each others instead of this despicable lawsuits. This is a ludicrous stunt which, even if it fails, will cost taxpayers money. Money that won't be injected in the system. Assuming they win (and they won't if the defense have minimal intelligence) this would mean EVEN LESS money injected in the system.

As it is, policemen can hardly do their job, much less babysit 22 years old delinquents. I dearly hope they will lose and learn to stop blaming others for their problems.

It is not a coincidence that this lawsuit comes just after the pointless, rose-colored documentary on the Tootoos that aired on CTV just a few days ago. Despicable.

PS: I'd like any of you to tell me how a law enforcement service is supposed to proceed if all drunks under the wheel must be contained and babysitted. I'd also like you to tell me how it is the police's problem if this guy had emotional or mental problems as some of you purport. They are cops, no shrinks. They are not legally responsible for the emotional state of felons and delinquents. In fact, they are not licensed to diagnose this stuff.

I've got to agree with Sammy. In this world, few people today will man up and admit their own mistakes. They're all too busy looking for scapegoats. Fortunately, in Canada these lawsuits have not reached a state stupidity yet. We're not at the point where you can get several millions in damage because you got the wrong meal at Taco Bell

Let's hope it will remain this way.

I hope the Cops sue them in return for this frivolous attempt to cash in and blame others.

Take the Tootoos' cash and inject it in the system!

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Old
05-11-2004, 06:03 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy
Can you please tell me what is the procedure they didnt follow.
Also please tell me, do I take it that you believe every drunk guy the police come into contact with should be incarcerated & not released until 12-24 hours later?
The procedure that wasn't followed was the Brandon police were supposed to drop off Terence to a "responsible, sober adult" and didn't. The Officers involved were officialy punished for not following said procedure.

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/05/10...a/tootoo040510

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05-11-2004, 06:07 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Apparently, many people here feel that should be the case and this is beyond me.

Undermanned law enforcement forces around the world should hold the hand of poor 22 years old dudes arrested from driving under the influence

What the hell is this? Some people are so delusional, they're calling this loser a MINOR. He was 22 years old, for chrissakes. Weere they supposed to pamper him like a newborn? The dude was not even a victim, and as it is the system has all the trouble in the world giving a modicum of support and ressources to VICTIMS.

Nothing is owed to the Tootoos. They can take a long hard look in the mirror, see if they wouldn't be better off sueing each others instead of this despicable lawsuits. This is a ludicrous stunt which, even if it fails, will cost taxpayers money. Money that won't be injected in the system. Assuming they win (and they won't if the defense have minimal intelligence) this would mean EVEN LESS money injected in the system.

As it is, policemen can hardly do their job, much less babysit 22 years old delinquents. I dearly hope they will lose and learn to stop blaming others for their problems.

It is not a coincidence that this lawsuit comes just after the pointless, rose-colored documentary on the Tootoos that aired on CTV just a few days ago. Despicable.

PS: I'd like any of you to tell me how a law enforcement service is supposed to proceed if all drunks under the wheel must be contained and babysitted. I'd also like you to tell me how it is the police's problem if this guy had emotional or mental problems as some of you purport. They are cops, no shrinks. They are not legally responsible for the emotional state of felons and delinquents. In fact, they are not licensed to diagnose this stuff.

I've got to agree with Sammy. In this world, few people today will man up and admit their own mistakes. They're all too busy looking for scapegoats. Fortunately, in Canada these lawsuits have not reached a state stupidity yet. We're not at the point where you can get several millions in damage because you got the wrong meal at Taco Bell

Let's hope it will remain this way.

I hope the Cops sue them in return for this frivolous attempt to cash in and blame others.

Take the Tootoos' cash and inject it in the system!
The Tootoo's have a case because the police didn't follow procedure and were punished because of it. Plain and simple. There isn't a grey area here.

Also, have you noticed that the Tootoo family isn't suing for millions of dollars? Read the article at the beginning of this thread and look again at what they're asking for.

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Old
05-11-2004, 06:13 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl Shilling
I would think the big difference between how the Snyders and the Tootoos feel is that the police, for example, have a much higher onus of responsibility than Dany Heatley has.
The main difference is that the Tootoo family are trying to find someone responsible for the suicide of their son when there's none. Human nature at its worst.

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Old
05-11-2004, 06:15 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolemite
The Tootoo's have a case because the police didn't follow procedure and were punished because of it. Plain and simple. There isn't a grey area here.
Even if that were so what about the guy who owned the gun ?

If Tootoo had jumped off a cliff would they sue God ?

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Old
05-11-2004, 06:19 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH≤
Even if that were so what about the guy who owned the gun ?

If Tootoo had jumped off a cliff would they sue God ?

It depends if God followed proper procedure. Besides, I'm not talking about the Gun part of the lawsuit.

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05-11-2004, 06:24 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolemite
It was a failure of Brandon Police procedure for not releasing a minor to an adult/guardian.
Terence was 22 years old when he took his own life (born: March 28, 1980; died: August 28, 2002.) Is that considered a minor in Canada?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolemite
This is the basis for the Brandon police procedure that wasn't followed.
Were the officers charged with a crime? Was there ever a criminal trial? I honestly donít know. If they are still working on the force, I guess the department didnít think it was. However, if Tootoo had been trying to hang himself while in police custody or showing outwards signs of suicidal tendencies, I would change my stance on the responsibilities of the police officers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolemite
Let me ask you this, if you and a friend went bar hopping where ever you live and let's say your friend got really drunk. When really wasted you knew your friend was probably going to do something stupid would you 1) leave them in an alley and go home or 2) keep an eye on them until you knew they were safe and out of any potential danger?
If one was to leave an intoxicated friend in an alley, I think it would be morally wrong, but I don't think it would be illegal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl Shilling
I would think the big difference between how the Snyders and the Tootoos feel is that the police, for example, have a much higher onus of responsibility than Dany Heatley has. They aren't the only ones that feel this way, since the Brandon police force publicly admonished the officers involved for not doing their job.
Dany Heatley was driving his Italian sports car over 80 MPH (roughly 129 KPH) and crashed into a wall, eventually killing Dan Snyder. Did the Branford police pull the trigger on the shotgun or hand Tootoo the shotgun? Are they guilty of accessory to suicide? If Heatley hadnít been driving his automobile at an illegal speed, Snyder would not have been killed.

If the police had released Snyder into Heatleyís custody shortly before the fatal crash, would you say that the police officers are more culpable?

I just donít see how you can compare policing officers releasing a guy who eventually kills himself to a person that crashes a car into the wall while traveling at an excessively high speed.

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Old
05-11-2004, 06:24 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolemite
It depends if God followed proper procedure. Besides, I'm not talking about the Gun part of the lawsuit.
The gun part of the lawsuit discredit whatever purpose they had when they sued the police.

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Old
05-11-2004, 06:31 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH≤
The gun part of the lawsuit discredit whatever purpose they had when they sued the police.
That may be but in terms of my argument, I'm not including the gun part in my replies.

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Old
05-11-2004, 06:31 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E = CH≤
If Tootoo had jumped off a cliff would they sue God ?
Don't be ridiculous. Obviously you sue any living member of Sir Isaac Newton's family. They've profited off this killer known as gravity long enough.

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Old
05-11-2004, 06:32 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Puddy
Terence was 22 years old when he took his own life (born: March 28, 1980; died: August 28, 2002.) Is that considered a minor in Canada?


Were the officers charged with a crime? Was there ever a criminal trial? I honestly don?t know. If they are still working on the force, I guess the department didn?t think it was. However, if Tootoo had been trying to hang himself while in police custody or showing outwards signs of suicidal tendencies, I would change my stance on the responsibilities of the police officers.

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/05/10...a/tootoo040510

"A police review in 2002 determined that the officers violated procedure by not releasing Terence to a responsible, sober adult."

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05-11-2004, 06:49 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Vyacheslav
Don't be ridiculous. Obviously you sue any living member of Sir Isaac Newton's family. They've profited off this killer known as gravity long enough.
You would make a good lawyer!

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Old
05-11-2004, 07:57 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolemite
The Tootoo's have a case because the police didn't follow procedure and were punished because of it. Plain and simple. There isn't a grey area here.

Also, have you noticed that the Tootoo family isn't suing for millions of dollars? Read the article at the beginning of this thread and look again at what they're asking for.
The fact they dont follow procedure (as idiotic as it is) is hardly grounds for a succesful prosecution of a lawsuit.
Their claim is also limited to by statute to claims under the Fatal Accidents Act. That is why they are not suing for millions of dollars.
Furthurmore you havnt answered the question. You obviously think cops should bre required to babysit all the drunks in Canada until they sober up.
I personally think that anyone who thinks the cops should be liable should have to wander around with a soother all day long, because obviously they think that the cops are there to babysit all the clowns in this society who dont believe that one is responsible for ones actions and we should all be treated as if we are a bunch of babies.

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05-11-2004, 08:20 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Puddy
Dany Heatley was driving his Italian sports car over 80 MPH (roughly 129 KPH) and crashed into a wall, eventually killing Dan Snyder. Did the Branford police pull the trigger on the shotgun or hand Tootoo the shotgun? Are they guilty of accessory to suicide? If Heatley hadnít been driving his automobile at an illegal speed, Snyder would not have been killed.

If the police had released Snyder into Heatleyís custody shortly before the fatal crash, would you say that the police officers are more culpable?

I just donít see how you can compare policing officers releasing a guy who eventually kills himself to a person that crashes a car into the wall while traveling at an excessively high speed.
Uhm.. I wasn't comparing those two situations to each other. I was answering a point made by another poster, who had said he felt that the Tootoos should take the high road and leave Terence's death as it is.

The difference between how the parents could feel, as I see it, is that the Snyders have said, "well, publicly thrashing Heatley isn't going to bring Dan back". Admirable, from my standpoint (though I think Heatley should serve prison time). The Tootoos, on the other hand, can look and see two things:

a) Their son is dead, and
b) The police involved in his arrest, etc, didn't follow procedure.

This isn't *ME* saying that the Tootoos are right in what they've decided. I think they should leave well enough alone. This isn't me saying that the police are responsible for Terence Tootoo's death: he's the one that pulled the trigger on that gun. I was just noting the differences in the approach taken by the families, as was noted by somebody else.

Daryl

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Old
05-11-2004, 09:09 PM
  #44
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Let's speak in a hypothetical situation, had he been turned over to the Tootoo's that night and managed to kill himself anyways, would they volenteer themselves for criminal litigation? If the blame is to be placed on everyone who contributed to his death by means fair or foul, would they take it upon themselves in that case? It just seems pretty convenient to try to squeeze greenbacks out of a person for the unfortunate circumstances surrounding your son's death. Unless somebody else pulled that trigger for him either by egging him on or by killing him directly, it was a choice he made that unfortunately turned out to be his last. Sad, sad story. However, nobody is at fault but him.

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05-11-2004, 10:32 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl Shilling
This isn't *ME* saying that the Tootoos are right in what they've decided. I think they should leave well enough alone. This isn't me saying that the police are responsible for Terence Tootoo's death: he's the one that pulled the trigger on that gun. I was just noting the differences in the approach taken by the families, as was noted by somebody else.

Daryl
I was keying on this paragraph you posted,
Quote:
I'm not necessarily saying that I agree with the Tootoos suing the cops over this, but that there is a difference between suing your dead son's friend for doing something stupid, and the police: who should have known better, and have a position of authority and responsibility that is much higher than every other citizen.
While I agree that a cop is more responsible than the average citizen, I don't the cops in this situation have anywhere near the responsibility that Heatly did because he was doing something that was very dangerous on the type of road on which they were traveling. The cops in the Tootoo situation were trying to give the guy a break by not making sit in a jail cell. I don't know what Tootoo's blood alcohol level was or how long he was held, but letting a guy go doesn't seem like it will lead to his suicide. It still seems shocking to me that he'd get a DWI/DUI (or whatever it is classified in Manitoba) and think the only recourse was to take his own life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dolemite
"A police review in 2002 determined that the officers violated procedure by not releasing Terence to a responsible, sober adult."
But what became of that review? Were they suspended, fire? Were criminal charges of some sort brought against them for the death of Tootoo?

I am not even so sure that being released to his brother, 19 years old, was worse than being released to his parents.

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05-11-2004, 11:07 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad The Impaler
Apparently, many people here feel that should be the case and this is beyond me.

Undermanned law enforcement forces around the world should hold the hand of poor 22 years old dudes arrested from driving under the influence

What the hell is this? Some people are so delusional, they're calling this loser a MINOR. He was 22 years old, for chrissakes. Weere they supposed to pamper him like a newborn? The dude was not even a victim, and as it is the system has all the trouble in the world giving a modicum of support and ressources to VICTIMS.

110% in agreement. He's an adult, he took his own life. The police were nothing but nice to him.

Some more facts about the case http://www.nunatsiaq.com/archives/nu.../20906_01.html

He was an adult, why should they have to release him into the custody of another adult. The seems like a very odd invention.

The police were even nice enough to drive him home. I'm the non-drinker in my group so its not likely I'd be caught for drink driving but if I was caught drunk & driving it would be very considerate of the police to book me and then take me home rather than make me spend the night in jail. It would be very nice of them. Who here would rather spend the night in jail, show of hands please.

What's to say he wouldn't have tried to kill himself in jail, or the next day, or the next time he got drunk. He clearly had problems.


Unless he told the police he was feeling suicidal how on earth are they supposed to know? Should they lock up every single person that commits an offense right down to minor speeding fines in case they have mental problems? "get caught littering and its a $10 fine, followed by a 2 week evaluation at the local mental institutiion, just in case".


Its appears Tootoo had mental problems before he was booked ie [Florio spoke with Jordin last week. "Heís in a terrible state," the coach said.] Should the police get the blame for these as well? Maybe they should sue his coach, or the guy that makes his milkshakes. It seems to me who ever he had dealings with before the police caught him DD are more responsible for his mental state than the police. Maybe they should sue his brother because he couldn't cope with Jordin being better.

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05-12-2004, 12:16 AM
  #47
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I saw Jordin Tootoo at the Winnipeg Airport on Monday with his lawyer or agent. I was wondering what he was doing there, now I guess I know why.

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05-12-2004, 10:25 AM
  #48
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I saw Jordin Tootoo at the Winnipeg Airport on Monday with his lawyer or agent. I was wondering what he was doing there, now I guess I know why.
Probably because he lives and trains here during the off season.

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05-12-2004, 10:36 AM
  #49
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Just to clear up one misconception I've seen here...Terence was not a typical young, rowdy minor league hockey player. He was actually a very good guy, really kind, smart, and had a very loyal character. He wasn't a loser. Many of his friends (including police officer buddies he had) were shocked that he was driving impaired that night. He wasn't that kind of guy.

That's probably the most tragic part of all of this and that's probably why a lot of people have a hard time understanding what happened. A normal person who gets an impaired driving charge shrugs it off, pays the price and hopefully learns. Terence killed himself because he wasn't like those people, the shame and guilt he felt was so much deeper. In his clouded state of mind he couldn't find a way of overcoming that.

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05-12-2004, 12:21 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Don_Cherry
In his clouded state of mind he couldn't find a way of overcoming that.

This is truly the most telling bit of everything said in Tootoos families defence.

In *his* clouded state of mind *he* couldn't find a way of overcoming that.

*He* couldn't deal with what happened so he *he* killed his self.

It is a tragedy and nobody is questioning that from what I have read here. What is being questioned and rightly so is his families response to suing the person he stole the gun he used to kill his self with and the police for taking him home instead of keeping him in jail.

To me though, them are the semantics that we could argue all day, the truth is easier to define. Suicide, while dead tragic, is the act of a troubled mind that is focused only on its own suffering and not what their actions will cause those who are involved in their lives.

It also *isn't* an impulse reaction that someone has and carries out on a one time basis. It is a countinual thought and struggle to those who have suicidal tendencies while either dealing with a tragedy or while trying to deal with other mental issues.

Tootoo, a young adult man in his majourity took a gun from a family freind without permission and used it to commit a crime. That crime is equal to murder. While I and many others I am sure find that idea as laughable, it is the truth and the law in most countries.

To sue *anyone* for the ultimate actions of what Tootoo done is akin to saying that it weren't his fault that he commited the act. He did, with his own hands, away from everyone and that is the truth and the only defining action of this tragedy.

I am certain that he was a great young man as it seems everyone thought, a great and troubled young man who had serious issues that alcohol made worse and ultimately caused him into actions that cost him his life and deprived his freinds and family as well as potentially the rest of us, his presence and while tragic, it should never be considered actionable.

At least I don't reckon so.

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