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Why are the Wings getting schooled in the face-off circle?

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05-03-2010, 08:58 PM
  #1
Sadekuuro
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Why are the Wings getting schooled in the face-off circle?

I mean yes, the first guy does get thrown out inordinately frequently, but even considering, and even when he doesn't, their performance is far below what one might expect. This series in particular.

I swear it wasn't that long ago that Detroit was best in the NHL at this. As in, wasn't it last season?

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05-03-2010, 09:16 PM
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They have been above average all season. Could it be a statistical anomaly?

I literally lost 14 dice rolls in a row a few days ago...

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05-03-2010, 09:38 PM
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It hit a high point with Tippet in 2008 when we played Dallas in the WCF.

He whined game in game out all day and all night about it. Since then, the zebras have consistently either waved Red Wings out of the circle, or dropped the puck without the other center having their stick on the ice.

Its called cheating basically.

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05-03-2010, 09:49 PM
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sarcastro
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In yesterday's game, Zetterberg skated up to the dot with his stick across his legs. He didn't even move his stick to put it down yet, and the ref put his arm up. He hadn't done anything at all -hadn't put his stick down, hadn't jumped, hadn't done anything. The faceoff had not started in any way. And he got tossed. He just stood there for a good couple of seconds, staring at the linesman and wondering what the hell he was supposed to do, since he had done absolutely nothing and got tossed.

The refs have been told to toss the Wings out of faceoffs aggressively because past opponents have whined about them.

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05-03-2010, 10:00 PM
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What's worse than the Red Wings playoff faceoff record?

The sharks' trophy case.

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05-03-2010, 10:20 PM
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Jobu! Sarcastro plead with Jobu to undo the bad karma Howard brought on the team when he said the Coyotes got lucky!

This might explain the face-off losses, broken sticks, bad officiating, and the Sharks not going Sharks.

Obviously, Howard and his big mouth has doomed the team with bad luck, something must be done, now!

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05-03-2010, 10:24 PM
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sarcastro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GT500x View Post
Jobu! Sarcastro plead with Jobu to undo the bad karma Howard brought on the team when he said the Coyotes got lucky!

This might explain the face-off losses, broken sticks, bad officiating, and the Sharks not going Sharks.

Obviously, Howard and his big mouth has doomed the team with bad luck, something must be done, now!
I might have to sacrifice some rum during tomorrow's game.

Gotta see if shaking up the avatar can bring some better juju.

I'm thinking about shaving the beard too. Haven't decided yet.

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05-03-2010, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
In yesterday's game, Zetterberg skated up to the dot with his stick across his legs. He didn't even move his stick to put it down yet, and the ref put his arm up. He hadn't done anything at all -hadn't put his stick down, hadn't jumped, hadn't done anything. The faceoff had not started in any way. And he got tossed. He just stood there for a good couple of seconds, staring at the linesman and wondering what the hell he was supposed to do, since he had done absolutely nothing and got tossed.

The refs have been told to toss the Wings out of faceoffs aggressively because past opponents have whined about them.
Hey, so in my last post I posted an animated gif of "OH RLY?" and I apologize if that was taken as trolling -- but I do want to ask if you really think this is true? Is that the general consensus here?


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05-03-2010, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsessed Sharks Fan View Post
Hey, so in my last post I posted an animated gif of "OH RLY?" -- but I do want to ask if you really think this is true? Is that the general consensus here?
I forgot which coach it was, but yes, there have been complaints made about the Wings cheating in the face-off circles. I also recall Michelle (if I spelled that correctly) Therrien complaining about the Wings obstructing.
It defininately seems like the refs are watching out for the Wings pullin their little tricks all over the ice.

However, we can't blame the losses completely on the refs. The Wings have to overcome whatever comes their way if they are really contenders.

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05-03-2010, 10:45 PM
  #10
sarcastro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obsessed Sharks Fan View Post
Hey, so in my last post I posted an animated gif of "OH RLY?" and I apologize if that was taken as trolling -- but I do want to ask if you really think this is true? Is that the general consensus here?
Those of us who watch all of the Wings' games can say honestly that they've been getting kicked out of faceoffs at a laughable rate since Tippett's complaints. And as proof, their regular season faceoff rates have fallen drastically since then with mostly the same guys taking the draws.

Now, do we think the head referees went to their guys and said "hey, we've been getting complaints about the Wings jumping on faceoffs, make sure you keep that locked down", or we think that the refs just read the press clippings and decided to clamp down themselves? I have no idea. But one way or another, it got into the refs' heads that the Wings are faceoff cheaters.

They have been held to a higher standard on faceoffs. Anyone who has watched the Wings regularly can attest to that. The Sharks are good at faceoffs, no one is denying that. But they're not coming to a stop on their way in and they are supposed to, by the rules. The linesmen just aren't being as strict with them.

Part of that is Babcock's fault, because we don't know what might happen if he were to say "we're getting tossed out of faceoffs unfairly" in a presser.

edit-

I want to expand on this a bit.

I am not among those who think that the NHL is specifically and intentionally out to get the Wings. Sometimes it's fun to joke about, but I don't believe it's like that.

What I do believe is that the Wings are victims of their own "Yankees of the NHL" reputation. Other teams have been accusing them of getting preferential treatment for so long that it has crept into the minds of every NHL official that they have to be a hair tougher on the Wings just to avoid the appearance of favoritism. In games like game 2, that includes several hairs, and one bad call against the Sharks is not equivalent to 8 bad calls against the Wings. That argument doesn't hold water for me.

The refs have to make decisions in fractions of a second. A lot of things flash through their heads during those fractions, and I believe that one of those things is that thought in the back of the mind that says "can't give the Wings preferential treatment, better make the call".

Additionally, there are specific Wings that the refs just plain love to call penalties on. Bertuzzi has a big red bullseye on him. If he does anything at all that is even 100 feet from a penalty, he's going to the box. Holmstrom is another one. He earns a lot of the abuse and calls he takes with the agitating style he plays and where he has to be to be effective, but if any other player in the league got cross-checked as much as he does, his team would get a power play every shift. And for every time Holmstrom legitimately commits an interference penalty, he gets one goal waved off with no penalty and another goal waved off with a goalie interference penalty to boot. Defenders often just shove him back into their own goalies and wait for the ref to send him off.

Meanwhile, Howard gets whacked in the face by Mitchell in game 2 and the ref doesn't mind it a bit. Slightly higher standard.

Then there's the treatment the team gets from the league. Wings players skip the all-star game to take care of minor injuries? Immediate suspension. Crosby skips the all-star game? No suspension, and he's told that if he shows up for the "events" then he won't be disciplined. Other team's star player commits an automatic-suspension infraction in the finals against the Wings? NHL changes the call after the game and protects the star player. I think they would have done that if it had been Ovechkin or Lecavalier as well, so I don't think it was about Gary's team getting the call reversed. Make no mistake, the call that was made during the game was instigator and that is an automatic suspension in the last 5 minutes of a game.

The Wings get the short end of the scheduling stick. Banged up and coming off a brutal 2 series stretch? Enjoy those back-to-back finals games. Got lots of your players in Italy for the Olympics? Enjoy that game at San Jose a day before most of the league has to come back. Eastern time zone team that draws well in Western cities that struggle to draw fans? Enjoy that permanent spot in the Western conference. Etc.

The treatment from the league, I believe, happens for two reasons - because they have to guard against giving the Wings preferential treatment, and because most of these moves help the league make money and the Wings can't stop them.

Wings lost game 1 on their own. Might have won game 2 with even reffing, might have lost - we'll never know. They damn sure won't win if the same reffing continues.


Last edited by sarcastro: 05-03-2010 at 11:24 PM.
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05-03-2010, 11:13 PM
  #11
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Burke complained about octopus twirling and Bettman banned octopus twirling before games at The Joe. Reason? Bits of octopus could fly off and when players skate over these (with the knives on their boots) they could get hurt.

I kid you not. 50 some odd years of octopus flinging never yielded a single injury, but Bettman nuked it. (Burkie didn't like it that that excited the crowd.)


Therrien griped about obstruction, and lo and behold an NHL refresher was given on obstruction. (Pretty sure there are news clips of this...)


The face-off thingy started last year, an area that the Wings had dominated in the NHL.

What was it that Poile was griping about at the start of the Preds-Wings series in 2008? That was another one...

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05-03-2010, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Burke complained about octopus twirling and Bettman banned octopus twirling before games at The Joe. Reason? Bits of octopus could fly off and when players skate over these (with the knives on their boots) they could get hurt.

I kid you not. 50 some odd years of octopus flinging never yielded a single injury, but Bettman nuked it. (Burkie didn't like it that that excited the crowd.)


Therrien griped about obstruction, and lo and behold an NHL refresher was given on obstruction. (Pretty sure there are news clips of this...)


The face-off thingy started last year, an area that the Wings had dominated in the NHL.

What was it that Poile was griping about at the start of the Preds-Wings series in 2008? That was another one...
Perhaps Bettman's boy Crosby whined about the octopi. I love that most teams have traditions, but it sounds like the NHL wants everyone to be the same... screw 'em.

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05-03-2010, 11:43 PM
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Perhaps Bettman's boy Crosby whined about the octopi. I love that most teams have traditions, but it sounds like the NHL wants everyone to be the same... screw 'em.

No, the octopus ban is definitely on Burke's shoulders. The outcry was so great, Bettman finally relented and said Al Sobotka (the official twirler of the sacrificial pre-game octopus) could twirl by the zamboni entrance.

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05-03-2010, 11:49 PM
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No, the octopus ban is definitely on Burke's shoulders. The outcry was so great, Bettman finally relented and said Al Sobotka (the official twirler of the sacrificial pre-game octopus) could twirl by the zamboni entrance.
You're talkin' about Toronto's Burke, right? Why the heck does he care? It's not the the old days when the Wings-Leafs rivalry was in full force. Heck, we used to say stuff like, Hey, I went to the Wings-Leafs fight the other day, and a hockey game broke out!

Edit: oh wait, that's right... he was whining when he was with Vancouver and Anaheim...


Last edited by SonomaShark: 05-03-2010 at 11:58 PM.
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05-03-2010, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthBaySharksFan View Post
You're talkin' about Toronto's Burke, right? Why the heck does he care? It's not the the old days when the Wings-Leafs rivalry was in full force. Heck, we used to say stuff like, Hey, I went to the Wings-Leafs fight the other day, and a hockey game broke out!

Edit: oh wait, that's right... he was whining when he was with Anaheim...

Yes, THAT Burkie (Ducks). Wings lost that series in the Conference final. Lady Byng winner Datsyuk was called for phantom hook with about a minute to go, and the Wings up by one goal. Datsyuk is a very composed player. He rarely screws up, but yeah, he decided to hook someone with a minute left in a Conference Final game. Ducks tied it, game went to OT, and the Ducks won. Now, the Wings did fail to convert on some PP's so it's not "just" that one call, but when you see anomalies like that, and then they repeat but only the playoffs, you get paranoid.

I'll admit it. Wings fans have become paranoid. They're philosophically at odds with Bettman et al., and so many chances to be in the playoffs perhaps gives us many chances to come with anecdotal proof that the league is out to get the Wings. I think sarcastro's post above captures the feeling well, but when the NHL keeps giving you fuel, the fire will smolder.

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05-04-2010, 12:00 AM
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It's obviously the bad reffing.


And for the non Redwings fans: Sharks have been dominant on faceoffs because they have a plethora of centers (Thornton, Marleau, Pavelski, Couture, Malhotra, Nichol), meaning there are, more often than not, two centers on a line. This allows the initial player taking the face off to cheat more brazenly, because there are no repercussions for getting kicked out: the other center simply takes your place.

mod edit: delete


Last edited by Winger98: 05-04-2010 at 12:12 AM. Reason: decided to tack a troll on w/ edit.
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05-04-2010, 12:03 AM
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sarcastro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthBaySharksFan View Post
You're talkin' about Toronto's Burke, right? Why the heck does he care? It's not the the old days when the Wings-Leafs rivalry was in full force. Heck, we used to say stuff like, Hey, I went to the Wings-Leafs fight the other day, and a hockey game broke out!

Edit: oh wait, that's right... he was whining when he was with Vancouver and Anaheim...
Yeah that was during the Ducks series in 07 if I remember correctly. Carlyle was a real piece of work too. The Ducks were champions of the "if we keep committing penalties, they'll stop calling them" philosophy. When Pronger only got 1 game for trying to break Homer's skull open on the glass, that was the kicker. He could have died, and Pronger knew it. He was going for blood with no regard for the consequences.

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05-04-2010, 12:06 AM
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Originally Posted by tmunnuch View Post
It's obviously the bad reffing.


And for the non Redwings fans: Sharks have been dominant on faceoffs because they have a plethora of centers (Thornton, Marleau, Pavelski, Couture, Malhotra, Nichol), meaning there are, more often than not, two centers on a line. This allows the initial player taking the face off to cheat more brazenly, because there are no repercussions for getting kicked out: the other center simply takes your place.
Hopefully to get this thread back on topic (bad admin, baaaaaad)....

Wings generally take natural centers and turn them into wingers. Filppula, Dats, Z, Helm, Draper, and even Franzen all started as centers. Cleary also does reasonably well on faceoffs is needed.

Thus the same philosophy is at play, but the bigger point is that prior to last year's playoffs, I don't remember the refs every worrying that much about face-offs. We went from having a guy tossed out of face-off once every three weeks, to one guy on every other face-off. Now, I don't have the exact stats, but it's one of those things you notice because it never happened before.

Factor in that Wings are generally very good on the face-offs. To get back to the OP's question...... why are they losing so many? I 'd gander we should pull up the season away and home percentages, as a starting point.

I need to go to sleep though, so maybe you left coasters can do it, or one of the European fans.

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05-04-2010, 12:14 AM
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I (for some unknown reason) do have a gut feeling Bettman has it out for the Wings simply because they are a threat to the order he is trying to establish (parity in the league being part of that). However, I do NOT believe Bettman has instructed officials to act against the team.
I believe Bettman just balls up his hatred and spite for the Wings, and suppresses it the best he possibly can. But I can see the hate in his eyes.

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05-04-2010, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Yes, THAT Burkie (Ducks). Wings lost that series in the Conference final. Lady Byng winner Datsyuk was called for phantom hook with about a minute to go, and the Wings up by one goal. Datsyuk is a very composed player. He rarely screws up, but yeah, he decided to hook someone with a minute left in a Conference Final game. Ducks tied it, game went to OT, and the Ducks won. Now, the Wings did fail to convert on some PP's so it's not "just" that one call, but when you see anomalies like that, and then they repeat but only the playoffs, you get paranoid.

I'll admit it. Wings fans have become paranoid. They're philosophically at odds with Bettman et al., and so many chances to be in the playoffs perhaps gives us many chances to come with anecdotal proof that the league is out to get the Wings. I think sarcastro's post above captures the feeling well, but when the NHL keeps giving you fuel, the fire will smolder.
Well, if it make you guys feel better, I was wearing my tinfoil hat last year during the finals. I was quite certain that the last two games went as they did because of some behind the scenes shenanigans.

As far as faceoffs in this series, don't forget that Manny, Scooter (Nichol), and Jumbo are as good as they get in the circle. Throughout the year, Thornton could "cheat" because he had Marleau there to take the face, in the event that he was tossed.

Can't wait for tomorrow's game! Best of luck to y'all.

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05-04-2010, 12:43 AM
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What are the rules for a faceoff. I trries to look them up but then was overloaded with informations that wasnt revelant.

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05-04-2010, 01:11 AM
  #22
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draper also does not take many faceoffs anymore. i don't know why.


i don't know why C's are thrown out of the circle so much more often than a few seasons ago. it seems to be like that across the NHL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmunnuch View Post
It's obviously the bad reffing.


And for the non Redwings fans: Sharks have been dominant on faceoffs because they have a plethora of centers (Thornton, Marleau, Pavelski, Couture, Malhotra, Nichol), meaning there are, more often than not, two centers on a line. This allows the initial player taking the face off to cheat more brazenly, because there are no repercussions for getting kicked out: the other center simply takes your place.

mod edit: delete
SJ was also the best team on faceoffs in the regular season. it should be expected that they win more.

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05-04-2010, 02:14 AM
  #23
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as for the wings getting tossed out all the time. keep an eye on thornton. he gets tossed out of the circle more than any player i have ever seen. it really is laughable.

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05-04-2010, 02:26 AM
  #24
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Originally Posted by sarcastro View Post
In yesterday's game, Zetterberg skated up to the dot with his stick across his legs. He didn't even move his stick to put it down yet, and the ref put his arm up. He hadn't done anything at all -hadn't put his stick down, hadn't jumped, hadn't done anything. The faceoff had not started in any way. And he got tossed. He just stood there for a good couple of seconds, staring at the linesman and wondering what the hell he was supposed to do, since he had done absolutely nothing and got tossed.
no, detroit was being lackadaisical getting to the dot. the ref has a mental clock in his head and if detroit isnt at the dot 3 or 5 (forget which one) seconds after he blows the whistle they kick them out

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05-04-2010, 06:26 AM
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I think it's not so much an anti-Wings bias per se, it's the fact that the Canadian hockey media has a huge voice and ear in the NHL's affairs. Think about how many times you hear an issue being raised on CBC and TSN broadcasts and there's suddenly an NHL directive about it three days later. It's obvious there are NHL sources who work with these channels but it's also obvious that these channels create a lot of pressure on the league.

So, you have a dynamic where say the media guys focus on a particular aspect of the game, say they point out face-off cheating is rampant in today's league. The Wings have been one of the best face-off teams and have been very successful plus aren't Canadian therefore they don't offend a big group of viewers ergo you can be almost sure the Wings will be shown in clips and talked about.

Same with goaltender interference. It's not that people hate the Wings, it's that goaltenders hate any opposition player within about a half mile of themselves and that viewpoint gets a lot of play in media sources, ex-goalies and ex-defensemen amongst the hockey chattering classes make sure of that. They don't even care if you're in the crease or if you touch the goalie, to them every opposing player who is acting with the design of impeding the goalie's view or ability to act is interfering, end of story. And again the Wings are the absolute best at screening the goalie and have had huge success with it, thus the Wings will by default be talked about when this issue comes up and to the extent that a lot of people forget that ALL teams do it and see it as a Wings issue. This also means opposing teams are extremely sensitized and if they lose to the Wings this will almost certainly come up as a reason why they lost and I am sure officials in Wings games hear about twenty "how about that interference ref!" "our goalie is getting killed here" etc. from the opposing bench every game.

Can't wait until "Detroit runs picks every play!" gets a special NHL directive, though it may be unnecessary as the current officiating is good enough to kill our chances.

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