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Sergei Gonchar: HHOF?

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05-04-2010, 01:42 AM
  #1
vecens24
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Sergei Gonchar: HHOF?

I have an interesting case for you guys to look at in Sergei Gonchar. The guy is going to end up in the top 15 in points all time among defensemen. He has the 2nd most points in the NHL since 1995 among defensemen (Lidstrom kinda dusts everyone in this category). Was the number 1 defenseman on the Stanley Cup Champion Pens last year. 5 All-Star appearances. 2 Second-team All-NHLs.

Simple question: Is Sergei Gonchar hall of fame worthy? He's going to put up worthy numbers, no doubt in my mind, but in my view he needs at least one more Cup as a #1 defenseman.

Thoughts?

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05-04-2010, 02:38 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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He was a defensive sieve for the first 2/3 of his career, so that hurts him.

That said, if he wins a second Cup in a row as the undisputed #1 defenseman on the Pens, it will be hard to keep him out, given the fact that he really rounded out his game post-lockout.

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05-04-2010, 02:40 AM
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Professor Dangles
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I think that Gonchar is a perfect example of those who belong in the Hall of Very Good.

I had no idea however that he's going to finish top 15 in points by a defenseman, hes really put together a great career rather quietly.

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05-04-2010, 02:45 AM
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I doubt it. If he had a Norris, it would really help his case.

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05-04-2010, 03:41 AM
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Not without a Norris/1st Team AS selection.

I think Larry Murphy and Serge Savard are the only post-expansion guys in the HHOF without having a 1st Team AS nod, and they have a combined 12 Cup rings. And were better players than Gonchar, anyway.

Zubov isn't going to make it either, and Gonchar wasn't near as good as Zubov. Gonchar is maybe marginally better than Steve Duchesne.

Gonchar was also underwhelming on the international stage - only 5 points in 24 games in 4 Olympic appearances.

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05-04-2010, 04:01 AM
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Gonchar shouldn't even sniff the hall.

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05-04-2010, 04:06 AM
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As mentioned, Sergei Zubov won't make it, and if Zubov isn't getting in, Gonchar has no chance.

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05-04-2010, 06:13 AM
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not without a second Cup

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05-04-2010, 06:20 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MS View Post
Not without a Norris/1st Team AS selection.

I think Larry Murphy and Serge Savard are the only post-expansion guys in the HHOF without having a 1st Team AS nod, and they have a combined 12 Cup rings. And were better players than Gonchar, anyway.

Zubov isn't going to make it either, and Gonchar wasn't near as good as Zubov. Gonchar is maybe marginally better than Steve Duchesne.

Gonchar was also underwhelming on the international stage - only 5 points in 24 games in 4 Olympic appearances.
What if Gonchar stays with the Pens and they go on to win 2 more Cups with him as their #1 defenseman? We're a long way from that happening, but it's not entirely unrealistic.

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05-04-2010, 06:25 AM
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tony d
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Really good player, but his lack of a Norris Trophy really hurts his chances of making it to the HHOF.

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05-04-2010, 09:36 AM
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Guys like Doug Wilson, Mark Howe and Gary Suter are not in the HHOF. Gonchar is below those so I'd say NO.

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05-04-2010, 09:57 AM
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seventieslord
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Quote:
Gonchar is maybe marginally better than Steve Duchesne.
That's unfair. Marginally better than Phil Housley is more like it.

The point about Zubov is fair. Zubov was, for the most part, better than Gonchar, and at this point, has enjoyed a similar level of team success. He also was better defensively for longer. And he won't make it.

TDMM has a point though - what if Gonchar is a 3-time cup winner in 13 months from now?

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05-04-2010, 10:07 AM
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HHOF? Sure not.

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05-04-2010, 10:15 AM
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List of HHoF D-men post-1992:
Guy Lapointe
Lionel Conacher
Larry Robinson
Borje Salming
Viacheslav Fetisov
Rod Langway
Paul Coffey
Ray Bourque
Larry Murphy
Al MacInnis
Scott Stevens
Brian Leetch

Sorry, Sergei no chance. The case would look different if the Hall treated forwards and defensmen equaly though ...

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05-04-2010, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
What if Gonchar stays with the Pens and they go on to win 2 more Cups with him as their #1 defenseman? We're a long way from that happening, but it's not entirely unrealistic.
then we can re-evaluate, but as it stands right now, no way does he get in. This is similar to those ridiculous threads touting Alfredsson as HOF worthy....in my estimation, the Hall should be reserved for legendary players who brought something unique to the game that has stood the test of time. Guys like Bourque, Coffey, Murphy, Lidstrom, etc. Not really good players like Gonchar....

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05-04-2010, 10:49 AM
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Bob Kudelski
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He would have a good shot if Lidstrom, Bourque, Chelios, MacInnis, Pronger never existed. He might have some 1st team allstar selections and higher probability of a norris or at least more nominations.

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05-04-2010, 10:50 AM
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Originally Posted by edog37 View Post
then we can re-evaluate, but as it stands right now, no way does he get in. This is similar to those ridiculous threads touting Alfredsson as HOF worthy....in my estimation, the Hall should be reserved for legendary players who brought something unique to the game that has stood the test of time. Guys like Bourque, Coffey, Murphy, Lidstrom, etc. Not really good players like Gonchar....
Was Larry Murphy really a better player than Daniel Alfredsson?

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05-04-2010, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
I have an interesting case for you guys to look at in Sergei Gonchar. The guy is going to end up in the top 15 in points all time among defensemen. He has the 2nd most points in the NHL since 1995 among defensemen (Lidstrom kinda dusts everyone in this category). Was the number 1 defenseman on the Stanley Cup Champion Pens last year. 5 All-Star appearances. 2 Second-team All-NHLs.

Simple question: Is Sergei Gonchar hall of fame worthy? He's going to put up worthy numbers, no doubt in my mind, but in my view he needs at least one more Cup as a #1 defenseman.

Thoughts?
Is he the best of the best? No. I think it is harder for D-Men and Goalies to get in the HHOF than forwards. Gonchar has had a ton of real tangible success. He is not his former teammate Peter Bondra. He rarely in his career has NOT had success. He is not a top defensive D-man but IMO he is far from terrible.

Larry Murphy is in, i think first ballot with a longer but lesser peak than Gonchar. Howe is NOT in and he has a far, far better career and peak and was better on defence and maybe offence aside from scoring goals. Not in and should be.

Looking back. Having watched his entire career, or at least the entire ERA of his career. I think he has a really legitimate case to make the HHOF now, moreso if he has 2 or 3 more decent seasons. Top D-Man on 1 Cup winner and 3 (I think) final teams. 2nd highest scoring D-Man over 15 or so years and likely the best GOAL scoring D-Man since he scored a ton of goals.

He is not Pronger or Bourque or MacInnis or Chelios or something. But he is darn good year in year out for a really long time.

I would probably vote for him eventually. I think he has a better than 50% chance of being inducted and if he was it would not diminish the HHOF but he is still a lower tier HHOFer.

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05-04-2010, 11:24 AM
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Guys like Doug Wilson, Mark Howe and Gary Suter are not in the HHOF. Gonchar is below those so I'd say NO.
Howe should be in for sure no doubt at all. Maybe Wilson too even with an injury riddled career and Suter was great he could easily be in too. A lot of worse forwards are in than these three.

If the HHOF was really hard to get in to then only Howe of these 4 should be in. But the HHOf is not as hard to get inducted into. I could be happy if only Howe was inducted or all 4 of these guys (with Gonchar)

Even with Crosby and Malkin to a large degree the Pens offence revolves around Gonchar on the PP and at ES. He is an important player and he is a good playoff player.

I remember early on in the Sens playoffs. The Sens played Washington. Gonchar was like in his first or second season. And I watched the games as a younger guy, not well versed in Washington or stats or anything. All i did was watch the games. And I saw this young guy Gonchar killing us. All the time on defence and offence and almost every shift. I was like who the F is this guy. 15 years later he is still a top player.

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05-04-2010, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Was Larry Murphy really a better player than Daniel Alfredsson?
you asked this question with a straight face didn't you....

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05-04-2010, 11:28 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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you asked this question with a straight face didn't you....
Yes, I did.

You don't have a rational argument then, do you?

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05-04-2010, 11:35 AM
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Was Larry Murphy really a better player than Daniel Alfredsson?
No i do not think so. And I think Gonchar is at least as good as Murphy was.

Forwards get in easier. I still am mindboggled by Mark Howe not being a HHOFer. He was among the best player in the WHA. He goes to Philly and to me is clearly their best player on multiple Cup runs that end in defeat to a dynasty. He had some injuries but had like (not looking it up) a 21 or 22 year career where he played till 40 years old.

He WAS Lidstrom of his time. He made the offence and controlled the defence with intelligence and stealth.

I am not sure if Alfredsson will ever get in. His 07 playoffs where he was the best player in the world for 2 months is his best ticket.

To me right now Gonchar would be a better candidate. Forwards get an easier run into the HHOF. Gonchar is the equal of the Modano's and Sundin's he was far above average but never the best for a long, long time. And he is doing it at 26 or 27 mins a game not 19-21 mins like the forwards that were good but not the best of the best.

D and goalies get shafted for the Hall. Gonchar is and was a top 10 D-Man for 15 straight years. Rarely a top 5. But almost always a top 10. And if you don't buy that I don't think he has a season he is not top 15 or top 20 in 15 years. That is impressive IMO.

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05-04-2010, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Cup 2010 Sens Rule View Post
D and goalies get shafted for the Hall. Gonchar is and was a top 10 D-Man for 15 straight years. Rarely a top 5. But almost always a top 10. And if you don't buy that I don't think he has a season he is not top 15 or top 20 in 15 years. That is impressive IMO.
I agree with a lot of your post, but I don't know if I agree with this part. Gonchar was downright terrible in his own zone for most of his time in Washington. I don't know if his offense made up for it.

To compare him to a current defenseman, he was like Mike Green, but without as much offense.

If he retired today, he'd be out. But he still has several years to improve his legacy.

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05-04-2010, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Cup 2010 Sens Rule View Post
Is he the best of the best? No. I think it is harder for D-Men and Goalies to get in the HHOF than forwards. Gonchar has had a ton of real tangible success. He is not his former teammate Peter Bondra. He rarely in his career has NOT had success. He is not a top defensive D-man but IMO he is far from terrible.

Larry Murphy is in, i think first ballot with a longer but lesser peak than Gonchar. Howe is NOT in and he has a far, far better career and peak and was better on defence and maybe offence aside from scoring goals. Not in and should be.

Looking back. Having watched his entire career, or at least the entire ERA of his career. I think he has a really legitimate case to make the HHOF now, moreso if he has 2 or 3 more decent seasons. Top D-Man on 1 Cup winner and 3 (I think) final teams. 2nd highest scoring D-Man over 15 or so years and likely the best GOAL scoring D-Man since he scored a ton of goals.

He is not Pronger or Bourque or MacInnis or Chelios or something. But he is darn good year in year out for a really long time.

I would probably vote for him eventually. I think he has a better than 50% chance of being inducted and if he was it would not diminish the HHOF but he is still a lower tier HHOFer.
i think murphy and gonchar are very comparable. both have been the best defenseman on a cup-winning team ('92 and '09), but neither carried their team like macinnis in '89 or niedermayer in '03. and honestly, i think both are closer to housley than the two guys murphy was inducted alongside. like francis, who is obviously a hall of famer but whose 1st ballot induction i disagreed with (also like gartner, but i think the francis comparison is more fair to the level of player that murphy was), murphy gets in on a long, relatively consistent career with big cumulative totals, even though he was always in the second tier of defensemen (behind the big six of bourque, chelios, macinnis, stevens, coffey, and leetch). neither were true first ballot guys.

the thing with the HHOF is that second, even third tier forwards have a decent shot. second tier defensemen have a bit of a shot, but third tier ones don't. only first tier goalies have a shot. that means, of the lidstrom/niedermayer/pronger generation, the best murphy-level guys are blake and niedermayer (who are arguably first tier), desjardins (who doesn't have the longevity to really merit serious consideration), zubov, and gonchar. i don't think zubov is in the end unequivocally better than gonchar, given gonchar's must better play since the lockout and the prospect of two or three more seasons to catch up to zubov's accomplishments. but i don't know if i feel right about inducting gonchar and not zubov, and zubov doesn't scream hall of famer to me. if murphy is the benchmark (i.e., the worst defenseman of the 80s/90s to get in), i could go either way on gonchar and zubov.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cup 2010 Sens Rule View Post
Howe should be in for sure no doubt at all. Maybe Wilson too even with an injury riddled career and Suter was great he could easily be in too. A lot of worse forwards are in than these three.
with suter, given that he has a marginal case at best, i wouldn't even give him a second thought being that he significantly hampered the career of the greatest player of his generation (gretzky), as well as derailing what could have been another hall of fame career (kariya). even though he wasn't usually a dirty player in his career, those were crimes against hockey. if it was chelios who did those things, of course you extend the welcome mat anyway because his HHOF worthiness is undeniable. but with a guy like suter, i would strike him from the ballot.

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05-04-2010, 12:19 PM
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seventieslord
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with suter, given that he has a marginal case at best, i wouldn't even give him a second thought being that he significantly hampered the career of the greatest player of his generation (gretzky), as well as derailing what could have been another hall of fame career (kariya). even though he wasn't usually a dirty player in his career, those were crimes against hockey. if it was chelios who did those things, of course you extend the welcome mat anyway because his HHOF worthiness is undeniable. but with a guy like suter, i would strike him from the ballot.
That is a good point, actually.

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