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Rd. 2, Gm. 3: Bruins @ Flyers - May 5, 2010 - 7:00 PM (ET)

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05-06-2010, 11:41 AM
  #701
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I'm not talking about press conferences. I'm talking about what they're actually doing. I didn't need a press conference to tell me that trading for Pronger meant the Flyers were all-in this year. What I needed, was for the team to be built properly around it's core, which it wasn't. Now our injuries remove more from the equation. They would be handling this better if Holmgren didn't blow it last summer.
Trading for Pronger was about selling a product as much as anything else... and I don't disagree that they were going for it this year (stupidly given the situation in goal), but that doesn't mean your analysis of this team at this moment in this series is fair, at all.

I also don't know what you expect Holmgren to do post deadline and in the playoffs about Carter, Gagne, and Lappy. A better goalie situation would have been nice, but even there if you lose your starting goalie to injuries you have a serious problem.

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05-06-2010, 11:44 AM
  #702
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
No, it's not marketing. It's not from some commercial I saw. It's from the actions of the organization. Now, they losing, because they weren't good enough. I don't want to hear injuries, because as the team was constructed, they still should be beating the Bruins. Instead it's this, that or the other thing why, and it's ok because the Bruins are lucky and "what can you do?" Injuries happen. You better be ready for them. They weren't, and they're getting burned because of it.
It's a load of crap.

There is a reason the Stanley Cup is the hardest of all the trophies to win. Not only do you have to be really good, there is also a significant amout of luck that needs to be on your side.

You can't afford to lose significant players, you need a bounce here and there ... and you need to capitalize when the bounces go your way adn the injury situation benefits you.

Whether you like to hear it or not, this teams season ended the night it was announced Carter was done for the season and Gagne was out for 3 or moer weeks.

Could we have found a way to defeat the Bruins ?? Yes, although we were going to have to be near perferct to do so ... but we weren't going to be beating the Pens or anyone out west without Carter.



Over the last 25 years this team has had (85, 87, 89, 95, 97, 00, 04, and 08) eight long playoff runs, and in six of them by the end we were severly hampered by injuries. It's brutal, and you'd hope that one day it will begin to even out, although it doesn't seem like that's the case.

In 95 and 97 we were reasonably healthy, but outclassed by older, more experienced and deeper teams.

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05-06-2010, 11:48 AM
  #703
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
I'm not talking about press conferences. I'm talking about what they're actually doing. I didn't need a press conference to tell me that trading for Pronger meant the Flyers were all-in this year. What I needed, was for the team to be built properly around it's core, which it wasn't. Now our injuries remove more from the equation. They would be handling this better if Holmgren didn't blow it last summer.
We're always trying to win, that's the difference between this orgainzation and some othesr in the league (usually a agood thing, but not always). Although even when the trade was made, next year to me looked like it would be the best in our window of opportunity (Giroux and JVR with an extra year to grow).

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05-06-2010, 12:11 PM
  #704
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Trading for Pronger was about selling a product as much as anything else... and I don't disagree that they were going for it this year (stupidly given the situation in goal), but that doesn't mean your analysis of this team at this moment in this series is fair, at all.

I also don't know what you expect Holmgren to do post deadline and in the playoffs about Carter, Gagne, and Lappy. A better goalie situation would have been nice, but even there if you lose your starting goalie to injuries you have a serious problem.
It's not about post-deadline with Holmgren. It was pre-deadline. For a few years before that. Holmgren might have been able to make a depth move if he had something to trade, and wasn't an idiot with the salary cap. And "giving a guy a shot" as your starting goaltender. If you want to throw **** against the wall and hope it sticks like it did with Betts and Krajicek (for a time), then that's fine. Not with your starting goaltender. Even though Emery got hurt, someone else was left holding the bag for it, and we're supposed to be OK with that.

As for "selling a product." This is the Philadelphia Flyers. An organization with a cult-like dedication unmatched by many sports teams in North America. They didn't need to trade for Pronger to sell themselves, and I don't think people would be as irate as the Flyers think we would if they had an off-year every now and then. The way the league is designed now, you can't really operate the way the Flyers do. Sometimes, it's not your time, and you can't really change that by making one trade no matter who it is. They also lacked a true shutdown center, and in my view, at least one other defenseman. It would be nice if Laviolette wasn't scared to death to put Krajicek and Parent on the ice at the same time.

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It's a load of crap.

There is a reason the Stanley Cup is the hardest of all the trophies to win. Not only do you have to be really good, there is also a significant amout of luck that needs to be on your side.

You can't afford to lose significant players, you need a bounce here and there ... and you need to capitalize when the bounces go your way adn the injury situation benefits you.

Whether you like to hear it or not, this teams season ended the night it was announced Carter was done for the season and Gagne was out for 3 or moer weeks.

Could we have found a way to defeat the Bruins ?? Yes, although we were going to have to be near perferct to do so ... but we weren't going to be beating the Pens or anyone out west without Carter.



Over the last 25 years this team has had (85, 87, 89, 95, 97, 00, 04, and 08) eight long playoff runs, and in six of them by the end we were severly hampered by injuries. It's brutal, and you'd hope that one day it will begin to even out, although it doesn't seem like that's the case.

In 95 and 97 we were reasonably healthy, but outclassed by older, more experienced and deeper teams.
Keenly aware of all of this, however, it gets old when every season ends prematurely because of injuries. I also wrote that the biggest thing that was going to hold us back vs. the Bruins was going to be not being able to matchup with the Bruins and their center depth, even if Savard was half the player he was during the season - a clear acknowledgment that this would likely be different if we had Carter.

However, with Holmgren doing all of what he did, am I being unreasonable to expect Scott Hartnell to step up and score a couple goals? And I know JVR is a rookie, but I need a couple of goals from him, too. They got one from Parent and Asham in this series, which was nice but still didn't have enough around them to simply win one game let alone four.

I don't think I'm asking Jared Ross and Andreas Nodl to come in and be THE spark to the offense, I just wanted to have guys who are here to do what they're supposed to do, and find someone to step up. The team that wins, is going to have their luck with injuries, but guys are still going to get hurt, and you're not winning anyways if you don't have a few guys (other than Giroux) who aren't a superstar rise to the occasion for added contributions.

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We're always trying to win, that's the difference between this orgainzation and some othesr in the league (usually a agood thing, but not always). Although even when the trade was made, next year to me looked like it would be the best in our window of opportunity (Giroux and JVR with an extra year to grow).
This was my biggest problem with the Pronger trade. Not only how it was constructed, but where the team was at coming into this season. The trade for Pronger essentially worked out where it was a trade that got the Flyers into the playoffs, and managed keep their jump on the Devils. This team usually expects more than that, and as I alluded to, they overrated themselves. I wouldn't make such a big deal about this if the Flyers were simply honest with themselves about it.

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05-06-2010, 12:13 PM
  #705
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As much as we all(well most of us) want Holmgren fired its not his fault our best players turn to glass come playoff time seemingly every season.

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05-06-2010, 12:15 PM
  #706
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Sign better goal tenders next year, one would hope at least.
Sounds like a good idea. Better goaltenders cost more $ tough.

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05-06-2010, 12:28 PM
  #707
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Sounds like a good idea. Better goaltenders cost more $ tough.
$ come from trading away Hartnell and/or Briere.

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05-06-2010, 12:32 PM
  #708
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Originally Posted by go kim johnsson 514 View Post
Keenly aware of all of this, however, it gets old when every season ends prematurely because of injuries. I also wrote that the biggest thing that was going to hold us back vs. the Bruins was going to be not being able to matchup with the Bruins and their center depth, even if Savard was half the player he was during the season - a clear acknowledgment that this would likely be different if we had Carter.

However, with Holmgren doing all of what he did, am I being unreasonable to expect Scott Hartnell to step up and score a couple goals? And I know JVR is a rookie, but I need a couple of goals from him, too. They got one from Parent and Asham in this series, which was nice but still didn't have enough around them to simply win one game let alone four.
Carter make an absolute gigantic difference in this series. Carter and Gagne are our 2 best goal scorers and they're speed would have been a huge issue for the Bruins defense with limited foot speed.

I agree that JVR and espcially Hartnell have been disappointing, this postseason. I said that our only chance to defeeat the Bruins with our injuries would be for those two to contribute offensively.

If Hartnell doesn't have some sort of injury (leg) that needs work after the season, we're going to need to find a way to move him. Just having last years version of Hartnell makes a huge difference.

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05-06-2010, 12:34 PM
  #709
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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom View Post
As much as we all(well most of us) want Holmgren fired its not his fault our best players turn to glass come playoff time seemingly every season.
As much as I agree, there are a decent amount of people on here that will disagree to this to no end.

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05-06-2010, 12:36 PM
  #710
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Perhaps the Flyers over-valued their assets, but so did everyone entering the season. The Flyers were the Sporting News Stanley Cup Champion, panels on ESPN and Versus picked the Flyers to be an elite team and almost everyone on HF had the Flyers as a team that would be in the same class as the Caps and Pens.

However, championships are not won on paper. The Flyers will be back next year.

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05-06-2010, 12:42 PM
  #711
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan View Post
Carter make an absolute gigantic difference in this series. Carter and Gagne are our 2 best goal scorers and they're speed would have been a huge issue for the Bruins defense with limited foot speed.

I agree that JVR and espcially Hartnell have been disappointing, this postseason. I said that our only chance to defeeat the Bruins with our injuries would be for those two to contribute offensively.

If Hartnell doesn't have some sort of injury (leg) that needs work after the season, we're going to need to find a way to move him. Just having last years version of Hartnell makes a huge difference.
Carter at least gives you a chance vs. the depth of the Bruins center. Having Carter with them losing Krejci might have tipped the scales like it has for them.

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05-06-2010, 12:45 PM
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Perhaps the Flyers over-valued their assets, but so did everyone entering the season. The Flyers were the Sporting News Stanley Cup Champion, panels on ESPN and Versus picked the Flyers to be an elite team and almost everyone on HF had the Flyers as a team that would be in the same class as the Caps and Pens.

However, championships are not won on paper. The Flyers will be back next year.
This is, it's ok if everyone else is wrong. If the team is wrong, someone's going to pay the price for it.

Even though you can't truly expect guys off your taxi squad to do contribute on the score sheet, I'm sure everyone internally is going to be asking what went on there. You can't trade away all these prospects and draft picks if the development of your AHL team isn't up to par.

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05-06-2010, 12:45 PM
  #713
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$ come from trading away Hartnell and/or Briere.
Right... Both have NTC or NMC and both performed like poop last season. Homer is no Sather when it comes to trading.

Awesome suggestion, in theory.

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05-06-2010, 12:47 PM
  #714
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As much as I agree, there are a decent amount of people on here that will disagree to this to no end.
what are you going to do when you lose 3 forwards in one game. all potentially for the season. yeah i know Gagne could come back if we get this thing extended beyond tomorrow but what will you get out of him?
I got it lets blame Laviolette for putting those players out there. He should have known they were going to get hurt

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05-06-2010, 01:03 PM
  #715
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It's not about post-deadline with Holmgren. It was pre-deadline. For a few years before that. Holmgren might have been able to make a depth move if he had something to trade, and wasn't an idiot with the salary cap. And "giving a guy a shot" as your starting goaltender. If you want to throw **** against the wall and hope it sticks like it did with Betts and Krajicek (for a time), then that's fine. Not with your starting goaltender. Even though Emery got hurt, someone else was left holding the bag for it, and we're supposed to be OK with that.
All of this is a different discussion than what is taking place at this moment, with this roster, in this series. The team is what it is at this point. Trying to take those issues and then apply them as some analysis of this series is misguided, that's the context of this series--no doubt--but talking about this crap as if we aren't missing key players that were expected to be there and playing a role is pure BS.

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As for "selling a product." This is the Philadelphia Flyers. An organization with a cult-like dedication unmatched by many sports teams in North America. They didn't need to trade for Pronger to sell themselves, and I don't think people would be as irate as the Flyers think we would if they had an off-year every now and then. The way the league is designed now, you can't really operate the way the Flyers do. Sometimes, it's not your time, and you can't really change that by making one trade no matter who it is. They also lacked a true shutdown center, and in my view, at least one other defenseman. It would be nice if Laviolette wasn't scared to death to put Krajicek and Parent on the ice at the same time.
Dude, it's always about selling a product. Acquiring Pronger equates to how many more jerseys sold?

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Keenly aware of all of this, however, it gets old when every season ends prematurely because of injuries. I also wrote that the biggest thing that was going to hold us back vs. the Bruins was going to be not being able to matchup with the Bruins and their center depth, even if Savard was half the player he was during the season - a clear acknowledgment that this would likely be different if we had Carter.
An acknowledgment that you've left by the wayside in the criticism that you've been leveling, and a blindspot in how you've looked at this series.

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However, with Holmgren doing all of what he did, am I being unreasonable to expect Scott Hartnell to step up and score a couple goals? And I know JVR is a rookie, but I need a couple of goals from him, too. They got one from Parent and Asham in this series, which was nice but still didn't have enough around them to simply win one game let alone four.
Well, JVR isn't ready...and he hit the wall a long time ago. He should be better next year. I've been impressed with his gumption in this series, but he needs to go through another evolution in his game...some of that will be adjusting to the grind and length of the season, but right now he struggles to get the puck into danger areas.

Hartnell is another ball of wax.

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I don't think I'm asking Jared Ross and Andreas Nodl to come in and be THE spark to the offense, I just wanted to have guys who are here to do what they're supposed to do, and find someone to step up. The team that wins, is going to have their luck with injuries, but guys are still going to get hurt, and you're not winning anyways if you don't have a few guys (other than Giroux) who aren't a superstar rise to the occasion for added contributions.
Unless you're stupid lucky, you're not going too far in the playoffs minus two top 6 players. This is a reality that you need to accept, because by not accepting it your making your other assertions stand on air.

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This was my biggest problem with the Pronger trade. Not only how it was constructed, but where the team was at coming into this season. The trade for Pronger essentially worked out where it was a trade that got the Flyers into the playoffs, and managed keep their jump on the Devils. This team usually expects more than that, and as I alluded to, they overrated themselves. I wouldn't make such a big deal about this if the Flyers were simply honest with themselves about it.
OK, we were significantly better than our position in the standings all year long. The stretch of suck completely masked a team that was quite good outside of that stretch -- we would not have made the playoffs if that was not true. We went 3-13-1, or 7 points out of a possible 34 (that stretch largely happening because of the Stevens' problems all surfacing at once, paired with some injuries). We got 81 points out of the other 65 games we played this year (that's 102 point pace). That's while spending the majority of the year with Leighton and Boucher as our goalie.

Give this team stable goaltending for 82 games and decent coaching from the outset...and we likely would have been a 100 point team with relative ease.

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05-06-2010, 01:05 PM
  #716
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Right... Both have NTC or NMC and both performed like poop last season. Homer is no Sather when it comes to trading.

Awesome suggestion, in theory.
Moving Hartnell isn't really a problem if they decide that's the direction they want to go. Worst case scenario he can be waived, and I'm sure someone will pick him up.

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05-06-2010, 01:08 PM
  #717
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Right... Both have NTC or NMC and both performed like poop last season. Homer is no Sather when it comes to trading.

Awesome suggestion, in theory.
At least Briere tends to perform during the post season and, in general, isn't a detriment while on the ice. Hartnell needs to see a sports psychologist in the offseason and get his **** together. He has the tools to be a 30 goal guy. If the technology existed, it would be nice to put Knuble's brain inside his body. Or maybe just give Hartnell's knees to Knuble...

However, I would fully expect the lags in offensive production to be much less next year. Lavi having everyone healthy for training camp and having a more experienced JVR and Giroux should keep things clicking. There will still be holes and major question marks, but a year of relative stability isn't out of the question. But, it's the Flyers, so who the **** knows?

Next year is vitally important. We having aging players that are going to be slower. One of these days Pronger, Kimmo, Briere, and Lappy are just not going to be competing at the levels we are used to. And they all will all still be drawing paychecks when that happens. The year after next could be bad. Real bad.

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05-06-2010, 01:09 PM
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Moving Hartnell isn't really a problem if they decide that's the direction they want to go.
That is if he waives his NTC and we find a taker and Homer completes a good trade that will actually help us.

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Worst case scenario he can be waived, and I'm sure someone will pick him up.
So you want Flyers to pay half of his contract like Dallas with Avery?

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05-06-2010, 01:14 PM
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That is if he waives his NTC and we find a taker and Homer completes a good trade that will actually help us.

So you want Flyers to pay half of his contract like Dallas with Avery?
You only pay half if it is reentry waivers.

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05-06-2010, 01:14 PM
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So you want Flyers to pay half of his contract like Dallas with Avery?
only have to worry about paying half on re-entry waivers.

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05-06-2010, 01:16 PM
  #721
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That is if he waives his NTC and we find a taker and Homer completes a good trade that will actually help us.
I'm pretty sure if Homer says, "Scott, we are either going to trade you to a team you list you'd be willing to go to, or waive you and you may end up God knows where..." Hartnell would provide a list of some teams he'd be interested in going to. Hopefully one of them would be interested in his services.

This is how Dan Boyle ended up in SJ, as he didn't want to waive his NTC with TB.

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So you want Flyers to pay half of his contract like Dallas with Avery?
No, if he gets picked up off waivers we don't pay a cent. It's only if he gets picked up on recall waivers that we get stuck with half the tab. However, I wouldn't put Hartnell in the AHL to create that situation in the first place...I also doubt that Hartnell, who has been pretty consistently 20+ goals until this season, makes it through waivers without being claimed.

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05-06-2010, 01:17 PM
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Sounds like a good idea. Better goaltenders cost more $ tough.
Well, it depends. Do you want good goalies, or just better ones, because I'm sure me and Infidelappel would be please to spend the summer getting our games together for league minimum .

On a serious note though, while better goal tenders do cost more money, Holmgren has said someone was on their way out this off season...I guess we'll see how this all goes.


Last edited by Giroux tha Damaja: 05-06-2010 at 01:24 PM.
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05-06-2010, 01:45 PM
  #723
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I'm pretty sure if Homer says, "Scott, we are either going to trade you to a team you list you'd be willing to go to, or waive you and you may end up God knows where..." Hartnell would provide a list of some teams he'd be interested in going to. Hopefully one of them would be interested in his services.
He probably did but it did not help Hartnell, Homer or the fans. If Homer can do it, I am all up for it. Do you think he can do it?
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This is how Dan Boyle ended up in SJ, as he didn't want to waive his NTC with TB.
Different player, different accomplsihements, different contract. Crappy salary was coming back lesser players.
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only have to worry about paying half on re-entry waivers.
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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
You only pay half if it is reentry waivers.
Says both of you. Thats over 12 ****ing million going nowhere. Who wants to lose 12M just like that after paying off Rathjes contract. Sure, Comcast has $ but still...
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No, if he gets picked up off waivers we don't pay a cent. It's only if he gets picked up on recall waivers that we get stuck with half the tab. However, I wouldn't put Hartnell in the AHL to create that situation in the first place...I also doubt that Hartnell, who has been pretty consistently 20+ goals until this season, makes it through waivers without being claimed.
So what if no one picks him up? I mean Cheechoo was not picked up but you think teams will line up for average 40-45pts, leader in minor penalties with 3 years at 4.2M a year. I do not know about that? There is always a chance.. just like there is a chance that we can come back from 3:0.

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Originally Posted by I am The Mush View Post
Well, it depends. Do you want good goalies, or just better ones, because I'm sure me and Infidelappel would be please to spend the summer getting our games together for league minimum .

On a serious note though, while better goal tenders do cost more money, Holmgren has said someone was on their way out this off season...I guess we'll see how this all goes.
Someone better be on his way out or that someone will be Homer, real soon.

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05-06-2010, 01:51 PM
  #724
GKJ
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Here is the video from last night when they showed Ian Laperriere:

http://flyers.nhl.tv/team/console.js...d=774&id=68746

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
All of this is a different discussion than what is taking place at this moment, with this roster, in this series. The team is what it is at this point. Trying to take those issues and then apply them as some analysis of this series is misguided, that's the context of this series--no doubt--but talking about this crap as if we aren't missing key players that were expected to be there and playing a role is pure BS.
I've put the injuries in it's proper context. However, in light of those injuries, NO ONE stepped up when they needed someone to step up. This isn't about Jared Ross, it's about the guys who you pay to do it, and the staff who are employed to cover the 'what if' scenarios as best as possible. This team fell short in both places. A sign that this team was NOT a true contender as they tried to lead us to believe they were.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Dude, it's always about selling a product. Acquiring Pronger equates to how many more jerseys sold?
Hopefully enough to make up for lost revenue of unplayed home games.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
An acknowledgment that you've left by the wayside in the criticism that you've been leveling, and a blindspot in how you've looked at this series.
Only because the organization made it clear that we are to hold them to that his year. So, now I'm supposed to hold them to a different standard when it's okay to? Now, it's a humbling lesson that you can't be a gunslinger in this day and age of the NHL (more of what I anticipated).


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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well, JVR isn't ready...and he hit the wall a long time ago. He should be better next year. I've been impressed with his gumption in this series, but he needs to go through another evolution in his game...some of that will be adjusting to the grind and length of the season, but right now he struggles to get the puck into danger areas.

Hartnell is another ball of wax.
No rookie excuses. I wasn't letting the rookie thing go last year with Sbisa, I didn't do with in 2006 when we had two rookies and a hack making up our 2nd line, I'm not going to this year either.


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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Unless you're stupid lucky, you're not going too far in the playoffs minus two top 6 players. This is a reality that you need to accept, because by not accepting it your making your other assertions stand on air.
The best teams are usually the ones who get lucky, and it's not because of luck that they're good.

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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
OK, we were significantly better than our position in the standings all year long. The stretch of suck completely masked a team that was quite good outside of that stretch -- we would not have made the playoffs if that was not true. We went 3-13-1, or 7 points out of a possible 34 (that stretch largely happening because of the Stevens' problems all surfacing at once, paired with some injuries). We got 81 points out of the other 65 games we played this year (that's 102 point pace). That's while spending the majority of the year with Leighton and Boucher as our goalie.

Give this team stable goaltending for 82 games and decent coaching from the outset...and we likely would have been a 100 point team with relative ease.
Certainly sounds like a team that toils around in the middle of the standings. Not bad enough to be terrible, not good enough to be a contender. Now, injury problems will put you in the 7-hole, but during the course of the regular season, there wasn't a ton of debilitating injuries (other than the goaltenders of course). Gagne's offense was MIA between his injury and the Olympics. Parent was the only one who missed a lengthy amount of time on defense. Pronger, Carle, Coburn, and Timonen all played at least 80 games. That kind of health from your top 4 defensemen is off the charts. Other than that, it was Betts and Powe. I mean, imagine if Ross (3), Laliberte (11) and Nodl (10) were needed to play more than that in bigger roles.

This was a team that was supposed to cover up whatever they weren't getting in net, right? "It's how the Red Wings do it." They were supposed to be able to put you and me in net and win games.

This 'stretch of suck' is a significant portion of the season.

If you want to talk about luck, the Flyers are lucky that the Rangers and Thrashers sucked enough behind them.

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Originally Posted by Kaktus View Post
He probably did but it did not help Hartnell, Homer or the fans. If Homer can do it, I am all up for it. Do you think he can do it?
Will he want to do it? He didn't want to fire Stevens. He didn't want to send Cote to the minors. He didn't want to go to arbitration with Randy Jones.

After this, we're supposed to expect Holmgren to ask Hartnell to waive his NTC? That's like asking a parent to pick between their children.

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Old
05-06-2010, 01:59 PM
  #725
GoneFullHextall
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well we will see if he was just blowing smoke by talking so frankly about Hartnell during that town hall meeting.
I do agree that Holmgren seems to play that loyalty card ahead of whats doing whats right for the team. So we will see how this offseason goes.
Right now Hartnell appears to either not care, or isnt trying. Maybe a little of both. He probably does sense what could possibily go down this offseason and is pouting about it. if that is the case then good ridance if he is moved this offseason.

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