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05-08-2010, 11:08 AM
  #26
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Originally Posted by Jack Tripper View Post
i would've thought that after losing 6 of the last 7 playoff games played against chicago, canuck fans would stop espousing the myth that vancouver's forward depth is superior to chicago's

imagine how much more lobsided this series would be if guys like marian hossa, andrew ladd, or kris versteeg actually showed up to play

it's true that chicago is clearly has vancouver's number, but after a certain number of defeats you also have to admit that the hawks simply have superior personnel to the canucks...and with the amount of bc boys on the team, i wouldn't be ashamed to admit that
I respectfully but absolutelly disagree. Don't let the scoresheet mislead you into believing Vancouver is inferior in offense. Montreal is 2-2 in a series in which they have never scored more than 3 goals in a match!!. On the other hand, Vancouver scored 4 goals or more 2 out of 4 cases and Chicago never managed to shut them out. Having 7 goals scored against is not a problem of Vancouver offense. They average 3.25 goals scored per game and you can easily win series with this productivity in case the rest of the team follows. Habs average 2.25 goals scored per game and are on par in the series with the current Stanley Cup Champions.

Whatever problem Canucks have in this series, it is NOT offense. And I absolutelly do not take the argument that matchup of two teams equals matchup of their offenses, that's ridiculous.

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05-08-2010, 11:09 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Diamonddog01 View Post
Not only that, but "losing our composure" seems to be amounting to little shoves and crosschecks - or Bieksa acting tough once the game has been decided and then abruptly skating back to the bench. If you're going to lose your composure then lose your composure, if you're going to take a penalty for retaliating then at least send a message (ie an elbow to the head). This is just pathetic.
it doesn't help that the canucks seem to talk such a big game in the media between games, get on the ice, and back none of it up

it just feeds chicago's sense of dominance that the canucks talk a tough game but lack both the ability and the willingness to back it up

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05-08-2010, 11:14 AM
  #28
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I would disagree with Chicago's forwards being deeper than ours. 6 forwards with 25 goals or more says otherwise. I would also disagree with Patrick Kane outperforming either of the Sedins or Kesler. He's been garbage and I've barely noticed him. Style of play, intimidation, special teams, and goaltending (resulting mostly from style of play) are what separates these teams. I don't buy that Halak is a better goaltender than Roberto Luongo for one minute. If we were back to our 2007 defensive shell of a system, he'd be back to God status in a flash. Right now we're giving up a ton of chances and Luongo isn't up to that challenge at the moment, not to mention the Hawks owning our crease. We did a pretty good job of getting in Niemi's way in the first period.

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05-08-2010, 11:15 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by FreakyEuro View Post
I respectfully but absolutelly disagree. Don't let the scoresheet mislead you into believing Vancouver is inferior in offense. Montreal is 2-2 in a series in which they have never scored more than 3 goals in a match!!. On the other hand, Vancouver scored 4 goals or more 2 out of 4 cases and Chicago never managed to shut them out. Having 7 goals scored against is not a problem of Vancouver offense. They average 3.25 goals scored per game and you can easily win series with this productivity. Habs average 2.25 goals scored per game and are on par in the series.

Whatever problem Canucks have in this series, it is NOT offense. And I absolutelly do not take the argument that matchup of two teams equals matchup of their offenses, that's ridiculous.
you're missing the point...it's not about how many goals the canucks have scored, of course they can't be expected to score 8 goals a game

however, i don't see how it's not clear that chicago's top offensive players have outclassed vancouver's top offensive players for the second year in a row

this includes not only offensive production, but their commitment to playing team defense, going to dirty areas to score goals, and their ability to maintain their composure under pressure

in the playoffs, it's a cliche but it's absolutely true...as nice as it is to talk about role players, in the end your best players have to be better than the opposition team's best players, and for the second year in a row clearly vancouver's best players have been outclassed

finally, it's still incredible how little credit the hawks get for destroying the canucks...it's true that vancouver assists in it's self-destruction, but i'm no longer convinced that in an even-keel and evenly-officiated series that the canucks would come out on top...the hawks top players are truly world class

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05-08-2010, 11:17 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by FreakyEuro View Post

Whatever problem Canucks have in this series, it is NOT offense. And I absolutelly do not take the argument that matchup of two teams equals matchup of their offenses, that's ridiculous.
We were a team that outscored fairly obvious defensive problems all year. How is not being able to keep the same scoring pace in the playoffs not the problem?

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05-08-2010, 11:19 AM
  #31
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Yeah, that Dustin Byfuglien, world class... It's he, Bolland, and Toews doing most of the damage at the moment. One of those three players is near the "world class" status, the other two elevate against the Canucks.

And, you can't outscore your defensive woes when it gets to the 5+ a game range.

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05-08-2010, 11:19 AM
  #32
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Not strong enough, big enough Defense-men. And Coaching. And the team is mentally fragile.

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05-08-2010, 11:21 AM
  #33
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Interesting Series - quite the turnaround. 2 things I've observed:

1. The Canucks miss Mitchell on the PK (and have for a month).
2. Many (myself included) thought the Canucks were a complete and improved team this year - better Sedins, Samuelsson, Burrows & Kesler - but it turns out that Chicago has improved too <and they were better last year>. The road to the Cup goes thru the Windy City it seems

Well, the Canadiens have shown what to do when down 3-1...

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05-08-2010, 11:23 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Ensign Ricky View Post
Yeah, that Dustin Byfuglien, world class... It's he, Bolland, and Toews doing most of the damage at the moment. One of those three players is near the "world class" status, the other two elevate against the Canucks.

And, you can't outscore your defensive woes when it gets to the 5+ a game range.
and kane, and keith, and seabrook...after all, keith and seabrook have as many points as the sedins this series

any vancouver fan shouldn't be ashamed to admit that a player like toews, kane, keith, or seabrook would help the canucks immensely right now

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05-08-2010, 11:25 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
The Canucks aren't intrinsically physical and thus have to go out of their way to hit and play a physical style. When you overcompensate for this, you end up out of position and taking penalties.
You can really see this with the Sedins, IMO. They don't know how to hit, so when they get riled up and "aggressive", they cheap shot instead.

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05-08-2010, 11:26 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
We were a team that outscored fairly obvious defensive problems all year. How is not being able to keep the same scoring pace in the playoffs not the problem?
Canucks are averaging 3.8 g/g these playoffs.

It's pretty clear that the 3.5 g/a these playoffs are the problem.

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05-08-2010, 11:26 AM
  #37
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The whole team has to be willing to die for one cause. They're not. I brought this up in another thread, but look at a stat like blocked shots — all the teams with a chance of advancing are in the Top 6 (Montreal 1st, Chicago 2nd, Boston 3rd), Canucks are 10th (two teams that were eliminated are ahead of us). We have 1 player in Top 30 of blocked shots, Chicago has 4, Montreal has 5, even San Jose has 3.

For whatever reason, and it likely has a lot to do with coaching, this team is not willing to pay the price.

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05-08-2010, 11:28 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Jack Tripper View Post
you're missing the point...it's not about how many goals the canucks have scored, of course they can't be expected to score 8 goals a game

however, i don't see how it's not clear that chicago's top offensive players have outclassed vancouver's top offensive players for the second year in a row

this includes not only offensive production, but their commitment to playing team defense, going to dirty areas to score goals, and their ability to maintain their composure under pressure

in the playoffs, it's a cliche but it's absolutely true...as nice as it is to talk about role players, in the end your best players have to be better than the opposition team's best players, and for the second year in a row clearly vancouver's best players have been outclassed

finally, it's still incredible how little credit the hawks get for destroying the canucks...it's true that vancouver assists in it's self-destruction, but i'm no longer convinced that in an even-keel and evenly-officiated series that the canucks would come out on top...the hawks top players are truly world class
Still disagree with you. A series won or lost is a matter of the whole team (including skaters, goalies and coaching) and can't be interpreted as a doing of offense only or comparison of offenses. Weak defense can make your offense look like predators and tough defense migh make them look like kids.

Vancouver offense (and now I mean the offensive aspect of the team may it come from forwards or defensemen) produces enough to carry the team further, it's the play at their own end (and again I don't differentiate if it means defensive contribution of forwards, defensemen or goalies) that costs them matches. Canucks have six players in their roster to score 25 goals or more in the regular season. That is some powerful offense. I stand my ground on this point.

I agree Hawks top players are world class ... as are Nucks top players.


Last edited by FreakyEuro*: 05-08-2010 at 11:33 AM.
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05-08-2010, 11:28 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Jack Tripper View Post
and kane, and keith, and seabrook...after all, keith and seabrook have as many points as the sedins this series

any vancouver fan shouldn't be ashamed to admit that a player like toews, kane, keith, or seabrook would help the canucks immensely right now
You were talking about forwards, though, weren't you? Kane hasn't been great but Chicago's top two defencemen have certainly outclassed us. You won't get any argument from me there. Edler is a great young player but not up to doing it himself.

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05-08-2010, 11:29 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Edler Von Gud View Post
Canucks are averaging 3.8 g/g these playoffs.

It's pretty clear that the 3.5 g/a these playoffs are the problem.
Why can't we simply outscore our problems like the regular season? Doesn't the speed and skill translate?

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05-08-2010, 11:31 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
We were a team that outscored fairly obvious defensive problems all year. How is not being able to keep the same scoring pace in the playoffs not the problem?
In playoffs the goals scored average decreases in general. 3.25 goal scored average is pretty decent. And Habs show us you can seriously compete with even less.

Other than that I cannot say. I hoped you guys will tell me what the problem is, since you know more. Vancouver obviously doesn't play up to their potential in this series, that's evident.

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05-08-2010, 11:32 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Ensign Ricky View Post
You were talking about forwards, though, weren't you? Kane hasn't been great but Chicago's top two defencemen have certainly outclassed us. You won't get any argument from me there. Edler is a great young player but not up to doing it himself.
sorry, i was talking about top players generally, so i was making the argument that kane/toews/seabrook/keith have clearly outclassed the sedins/kesler/luongo for the second year in a row

actually pretty scary to think how many goals chicago would have right now if hossa, kane, and sharp were at the top of their games

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05-08-2010, 11:33 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Jack Tripper View Post
sorry, i was talking about top players generally, so i was making the argument that kane/toews/seabrook/keith have clearly outclassed the sedins/kesler/luongo for the second year in a row

actually pretty scary to think how many goals chicago would have right now if hossa, kane, and sharp were at the top of their games
Sharp has 6 points in 4 games, that's definitely at the top of his game.

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05-08-2010, 11:35 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by jimmythescot View Post
The Hawks are looking so good because we can't defend.

And this is what 20-something other teams are excuse-making at the moment.


Give the Hawks offense some credit man

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05-08-2010, 11:37 AM
  #45
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What if Kesler, Ehrhoff, Samuelsson, and Burrows to name a few were on the top of their game? How many more goals would we have scored? I still don't buy that Chicago's better players are that much better, certainly up front and in net. Retool the defence and some of the supporting cast up front and I think we could be serious contenders. The Sedins haven't been their dominant selves in this series, I agree, but they aren't the heart of our problems.

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05-08-2010, 11:37 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by KingKane View Post
And this is what 20-something other teams are excuse-making at the moment.
no kidding

after seeing the exact same **** go down two years in a row you would think at least some of us would come to the conclusion that, as both teams currently stand, the hawks are the deeper and better team

2 teams are playing this series

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05-08-2010, 11:39 AM
  #47
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after seeing the exact same **** go down two years in a row you would think at least some of us would come to the conclusion that, as both teams currently stand, the hawks are the deeper and better team
I didn't believe it before the series. Expected us to take it in 5, 6 tops.

But it can't be ignored anymore - hurts to admit - but they're simply a better team, basically top to bottom.

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05-08-2010, 11:39 AM
  #48
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I don't think offense is Vancouver's problem. 5 goals in Game 1, 2 in Game 2, 3 in Game 3, 4 in Game 4. That's 3.5 goals per game, which should be enough to win some games.

Our biggest problems are interrelated: our defensive play, our lack of discipline, and our PK. Our defense are not completing passes and not getting back into their zone quickly enough. Watch the Hawks forecheck. When Dustin Byfuglien is catching up to Alex Edler despite a lengthy head start by Edler, something is wrong. When Andrew Ladd does the same thing to Christian Ehrhoff, arguably one of the fastest Canucks, something is wrong. There is just a lack of try when chasing the puck back into our zone at the moment from the Canucks defense.

I think the officiating has been crap at best and it seems terribly lopsided against us, but I'll ignore that and focus on a problem we can fix which is our discipline. The Canucks know the refs are watching them, they know the Hawks are goading them and embellishing at every opportunity and getting away with it. Yet they continually and willingly take the bait, take the stupid penalty and put our anemic PK to the test against one of the best offenses in the NHL. AV, the coaching staff, the Canucks' leadership core...all of them need to sit down, get the team to collectively give their head a shake and do what they said they were going to, which is play smart and disciplined hockey.

And finally, the PK. The Canucks managed to right the ship against LA, and they will need to do that against Chicago to have any chance whatsoever. I can't tell you why it's become so terrible in such a hurry, but it needs fixing. And I think it needs fixing in the same fashion it did against LA...they need a couple of successful kills to gain some momentum and confidence. The team needs to work on this together.

Now, the good news about those three things is that they are all things that the Canucks have power to fix. We can scream all we want about Luongo letting out rebounds, but honestly, I see Niemi giving up the same amount. I just see a defense lead by two top defenders in the league getting to the pucks first before the attackers can. I don't see that happening in the Canucks' end, and again, I attribute that to a lack of overall hustle and effort from our D. They seem to be standing around letting the Hawks dictate the play...and that can't happen.

Hopefully some or all of these things are fixed for Game 5. I believe they can do it, the question is will they?

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05-08-2010, 11:43 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostMyGlasses View Post
Why can't we simply outscore our problems like the regular season? Doesn't the speed and skill translate?
maybe because the defense, PK, and Luongo have been terrible? I know where you are going with this too it's pretty predictable. I guess you've failed to see that the "gritty" Canadian players on this team have been the worst players on this team.

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05-08-2010, 11:48 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by KingKane View Post
And this is what 20-something other teams are excuse-making at the moment.


Give the Hawks offense some credit man
I can see why you think I meant that.

I don't mean that the Hawks are bad, or even just good. The Canuck defence is playing very very badly in these playoffs, especially on the PK. Standing still in a box and waggling a stick in the general direction of the puck while the Hawks get into position to create the maximum amount of possible attack options is not going to help keep the puck out of the net.

The Hawks are doing what I would expect a very good offence to do when playing against people that don't seem to know what they're doing.

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