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2010 HHOF Eligbles vs. Contemporary Inductees Outside Top 100 - Quick Glance

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Old
05-08-2010, 05:30 PM
  #1
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2010 HHOF Eligbles vs. Contemporary Inductees Outside Top 100 - Quick Glance

Guy Carbonneau: Selke (x3), Stanley Cup (x3)
John LeClair: Stanley Cup, 1st Team All Star (x2) , 2nd Team All Star (x3), World Cup Champion
Eric Lindros: Hart, Pearson, Olympic Gold, Canada Cup Champion, 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star, 1.13 PPG
Pavel Bure: Rocket Richard (x2), Calder, 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star (x2), 1.11 PPG
Joe Nieuwendyk: Stanley Cup (x3), Conn Smythe, Calder, Olympic Gold
Theoren Fleury: Stanley Cup, Olympic Gold, Canada Cup Champion, 2nd Team All Star, 1.01 PPG
Sergei Makarov: Calder, Olympic Gold (x2), Canada Cup Champion, USSR First All-Star Team (x8), USSR Scoring Title (x9), USSR MVP (x3)
Gilmour: Selke, Stanley Cup
Adam Oates: 2nd Team All Star, 1.05 PPG
Dave Andreychuk: Stanley Cup
Phil Housley: 2nd Team All Star, World Cup Champion
Alexander Mogilny: Stanley Cup, Olympic Gold, 2nd Team All Star (x2), Lady Byng, 1.004 PPG
Pierre Turgeon: Lady Byng, 1.01 PPG
Sean Burke: Canada Cup Champion
Brian Bellows: 2nd Team All Star, Stanley Cup, Canada Cup Champion
Dino Ciccarelli: --
Vincent Damphousse: Stanley Cup
Dale Hunter: --
Steve Larmer: Calder, Stanley Cup, Canada Cup Champion
Rick Middleton: Byng, 2nd Team All Star, Canada Cup Champion
Kirk Muller: Stanley Cup
Bernie Nicholls: 1.06 PPG
Brian Propp: Canada Cup Champion
Bobby Smith: Calder, Stanley Cup
Dave Taylor: 2nd Team All Star
Pat Verbeek: Stanley Cup
Mark Howe: 1st Team All Star (x3)
Tom Barrasso: Calder, Vezina, 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star (x2), Stanley Cup (x2)
Doug Wilson: Norris, 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star (x2), Canada Cup Champion
Mike Richter: Stanley Cup, World Cup Champion
Ron Hextall: Canada Cup Champion, Conn Smythe, Vezina, 1st Team All Star
Rick Tocchet: Stanley Cup, Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Gary Suter: Calder, Stanley Cup, 2nd Team All Star, World Cup Champion
Kent Nilsson: 1.21 PPG, Stanley Cup
Neal Broten: Olympic Gold, Stanley Cup
Andy Moog: Stanley Cup (x3)
John Tonelli: 2nd Team All Star (x2), Canada Cup Champion, Stanley Cup (x4)
John Vanbiesbrouck: Vezina, 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star
Tim Kerr: 1.01 PPG, 2nd Team All Star
Charlie Simmer: 1st Team All Star (x2)
Mike Vernon: 2nd Team All Star, Conn Smythe, Stanley Cup (x2)

vs.


Contempoary Hockey Hall Of Fame inductees not considered Top-100 players of all time (per: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=669817 and http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=486479 ):

Michel Goulet: 1st Team All Star (x3) , 2nd Team All Star (x2), 1.04 PPG, Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Pat Lafontaine: 2nd Team All Star, World Cup Champion, 1.15 PPG
Luc Robitaille: Calder, Stanley Cup, Canada Cup Champion, 1st Team All Star (x5), 2nd Team All Star (x3)
Dale Hawerchuk: 1.17 PPG, Calder, 2nd Team All Star, Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Joe Mullen: Lady Byng, 1st Team All Star, Stanley Cup
Denis Savard: 2nd Team All Star, 1.11 PPG, Stanley Cup
Igor Larionov: Olympic Gold (x2), Canada Cup Champion, Stanley Cup (x3), USSR 1st Team All Star (x4), USSR MVP
Mike Gartner: Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Bernie Federko: 1.13 PPG
Rod Langway: Norris (x2), Stanley Cup, 1st Team All Star (x2) , 2nd Team All Star
Larry Murphy: Stanley Cup (x4), 2nd Team All Star (x3), Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Glenn Anderson: Stanley Cup (x6), Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Cam Neely: --
Grant Fuhr: 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star, Vezina, Stanley Cup (x5), Canada Cup Champion (x2)

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05-08-2010, 06:09 PM
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Canadiens1958
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Top Candidates

Quote:
Originally Posted by RECsGuy View Post
Guy Carbonneau: Selke (x3), Stanley Cup (x3)
John LeClair: Stanley Cup, 1st Team All Star (x2) , 2nd Team All Star (x3), World Cup Champion
Eric Lindros: Hart, Pearson, Olympic Gold, Canada Cup Champion, 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star, 1.13 PPG
Pavel Bure: Rocket Richard (x2), Calder, 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star (x2), 1.11 PPG
Joe Nieuwendyk: Stanley Cup (x3), Conn Smythe, Calder, Olympic Gold
Theoren Fleury: Stanley Cup, Olympic Gold, Canada Cup Champion, 2nd Team All Star, 1.01 PPG
Sergei Makarov: Calder, Olympic Gold (x2), Canada Cup Champion, USSR First All-Star Team (x8), USSR Scoring Title (x9), USSR MVP (x3)
Gilmour: Selke, Stanley Cup
Adam Oates: 2nd Team All Star, 1.05 PPG
Dave Andreychuk: Stanley Cup
Phil Housley: 2nd Team All Star, World Cup Champion
Alexander Mogilny: Stanley Cup, Olympic Gold, 2nd Team All Star (x2), Lady Byng, 1.004 PPG
Pierre Turgeon: Lady Byng, 1.01 PPG
Sean Burke: Canada Cup Champion
Brian Bellows: 2nd Team All Star, Stanley Cup, Canada Cup Champion
Dino Ciccarelli: --
Vincent Damphousse: Stanley Cup
Dale Hunter: --
Steve Larmer: Calder, Stanley Cup, Canada Cup Champion
Rick Middleton: Byng, 2nd Team All Star, Canada Cup Champion
Kirk Muller: Stanley Cup
Bernie Nicholls: 1.06 PPG
Brian Propp: Canada Cup Champion
Bobby Smith: Calder, Stanley Cup
Dave Taylor: 2nd Team All Star
Pat Verbeek: Stanley Cup
Mark Howe: 1st Team All Star (x3)
Tom Barrasso: Calder, Vezina, 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star (x2), Stanley Cup (x2)
Doug Wilson: Norris, 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star (x2), Canada Cup Champion
Mike Richter: Stanley Cup, World Cup Champion
Ron Hextall: Canada Cup Champion, Conn Smythe, Vezina, 1st Team All Star
Rick Tocchet: Stanley Cup, Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Gary Suter: Calder, Stanley Cup, 2nd Team All Star, World Cup Champion
Kent Nilsson: 1.21 PPG, Stanley Cup
Neal Broten: Olympic Gold, Stanley Cup
Andy Moog: Stanley Cup (x3)
John Tonelli: 2nd Team All Star (x2), Canada Cup Champion, Stanley Cup (x4)
John Vanbiesbrouck: Vezina, 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star
Tim Kerr: 1.01 PPG, 2nd Team All Star
Charlie Simmer: 1st Team All Star (x2)
Mike Vernon: 2nd Team All Star, Conn Smythe, Stanley Cup (x2)

vs.


Contempoary Hockey Hall Of Fame inductees not considered Top-100 players of all time (per: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=669817 and http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=486479 ):

Michel Goulet: 1st Team All Star (x3) , 2nd Team All Star (x2), 1.04 PPG, Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Pat Lafontaine: 2nd Team All Star, World Cup Champion, 1.15 PPG
Luc Robitaille: Calder, Stanley Cup, Canada Cup Champion, 1st Team All Star (x5), 2nd Team All Star (x3)
Dale Hawerchuk: 1.17 PPG, Calder, 2nd Team All Star, Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Joe Mullen: Lady Byng, 1st Team All Star, Stanley Cup
Denis Savard: 2nd Team All Star, 1.11 PPG, Stanley Cup
Igor Larionov: Olympic Gold (x2), Canada Cup Champion, Stanley Cup (x3), USSR 1st Team All Star (x4), USSR MVP
Mike Gartner: Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Bernie Federko: 1.13 PPG
Rod Langway: Norris (x2), Stanley Cup, 1st Team All Star (x2) , 2nd Team All Star
Larry Murphy: Stanley Cup (x4), 2nd Team All Star (x3), Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Glenn Anderson: Stanley Cup (x6), Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Cam Neely: --
Grant Fuhr: 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star, Vezina, Stanley Cup (x5), Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Bolded leading candidates IMO plus oldtimers Claude Provost

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05-08-2010, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RECsGuy View Post
Guy Carbonneau: Selke (x3), Stanley Cup (x3)
John LeClair: Stanley Cup, 1st Team All Star (x2) , 2nd Team All Star (x3), World Cup Champion
Eric Lindros: Hart, Pearson, Olympic Gold, Canada Cup Champion, 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star, 1.13 PPG
Pavel Bure: Rocket Richard (x2), Calder, 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star (x2), 1.11 PPG
Joe Nieuwendyk: Stanley Cup (x3), Conn Smythe, Calder, Olympic Gold
Theoren Fleury: Stanley Cup, Olympic Gold, Canada Cup Champion, 2nd Team All Star, 1.01 PPG
Sergei Makarov: Calder, Olympic Gold (x2), Canada Cup Champion, USSR First All-Star Team (x8), USSR Scoring Title (x9), USSR MVP (x3)
Gilmour: Selke, Stanley Cup
Adam Oates: 2nd Team All Star, 1.05 PPG
Dave Andreychuk: Stanley Cup
Phil Housley: 2nd Team All Star, World Cup Champion
Alexander Mogilny: Stanley Cup, Olympic Gold, 2nd Team All Star (x2), Lady Byng, 1.004 PPG
Pierre Turgeon: Lady Byng, 1.01 PPG
Sean Burke: Canada Cup Champion
Brian Bellows: 2nd Team All Star, Stanley Cup, Canada Cup Champion
Dino Ciccarelli: --
Vincent Damphousse: Stanley Cup
Dale Hunter: --
Steve Larmer: Calder, Stanley Cup, Canada Cup Champion
Rick Middleton: Byng, 2nd Team All Star, Canada Cup Champion
Kirk Muller: Stanley Cup
Bernie Nicholls: 1.06 PPG
Brian Propp: Canada Cup Champion
Bobby Smith: Calder, Stanley Cup
Dave Taylor: 2nd Team All Star
Pat Verbeek: Stanley Cup
Mark Howe: 1st Team All Star (x3)
Tom Barrasso: Calder, Vezina, 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star (x2), Stanley Cup (x2)
Doug Wilson: Norris, 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star (x2), Canada Cup Champion
Mike Richter: Stanley Cup, World Cup Champion
Ron Hextall: Canada Cup Champion, Conn Smythe, Vezina, 1st Team All Star
Rick Tocchet: Stanley Cup, Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Gary Suter: Calder, Stanley Cup, 2nd Team All Star, World Cup Champion
Kent Nilsson: 1.21 PPG, Stanley Cup
Neal Broten: Olympic Gold, Stanley Cup
Andy Moog: Stanley Cup (x3)
John Tonelli: 2nd Team All Star (x2), Canada Cup Champion, Stanley Cup (x4)
John Vanbiesbrouck: Vezina, 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star
Tim Kerr: 1.01 PPG, 2nd Team All Star
Charlie Simmer: 1st Team All Star (x2)
Mike Vernon: 2nd Team All Star, Conn Smythe, Stanley Cup (x2)

vs.


Contempoary Hockey Hall Of Fame inductees not considered Top-100 players of all time (per: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=669817 and http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=486479 ):

Michel Goulet: 1st Team All Star (x3) , 2nd Team All Star (x2), 1.04 PPG, Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Pat Lafontaine: 2nd Team All Star, World Cup Champion, 1.15 PPG
Luc Robitaille: Calder, Stanley Cup, Canada Cup Champion, 1st Team All Star (x5), 2nd Team All Star (x3)
Dale Hawerchuk: 1.17 PPG, Calder, 2nd Team All Star, Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Joe Mullen: Lady Byng, 1st Team All Star, Stanley Cup
Denis Savard: 2nd Team All Star, 1.11 PPG, Stanley Cup
Igor Larionov: Olympic Gold (x2), Canada Cup Champion, Stanley Cup (x3), USSR 1st Team All Star (x4), USSR MVP
Mike Gartner: Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Bernie Federko: 1.13 PPG
Rod Langway: Norris (x2), Stanley Cup, 1st Team All Star (x2) , 2nd Team All Star
Larry Murphy: Stanley Cup (x4), 2nd Team All Star (x3), Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Glenn Anderson: Stanley Cup (x6), Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Cam Neely: --
Grant Fuhr: 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star, Vezina, Stanley Cup (x5), Canada Cup Champion (x2)
These and Sven Tumba and Alexander Maltsev

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05-08-2010, 07:50 PM
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Interesting Point

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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
These and Sven Tumba and Alexander Maltsev

You raise a very interesting point. When and how will the HHOF start recognizing some of the founding international hockey stars.

Sven Tumba would be a lock out of Sweden, maybe Ulf Strener but Finland and the former Czechoslovakia are open to debate as is the order of Soviet Union greats.

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05-08-2010, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
You raise a very interesting point. When and how will the HHOF start recognizing some of the founding international hockey stars.

Sven Tumba would be a lock out of Sweden, maybe Ulf Strener but Finland and the former Czechoslovakia are open to debate as is the order of Soviet Union greats.
Sterner is also a lock and so would Holmquist I guess.

From Czechoslovakia we have:

Ivan Hlinka
Jiri Holecek
Vaclav Nedomansky

From Finland:
Timo Jutila

Got to say though that finnish players were a bit weak before 70s-80s.

Russia has too many players really but most notable would be:
Maltsev
Bobrov
Vitaly Davydov
Boris Mikhailov
Viktor Tikhonov as coach ofcourse

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05-08-2010, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RECsGuy View Post
Guy Carbonneau: Selke (x3), Stanley Cup (x3)
John LeClair: Stanley Cup, 1st Team All Star (x2) , 2nd Team All Star (x3), World Cup Champion
Eric Lindros: Hart, Pearson, Olympic Gold, Canada Cup Champion, 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star, 1.13 PPG
Pavel Bure: Rocket Richard (x2), Calder, 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star (x2), 1.11 PPG
Joe Nieuwendyk: Stanley Cup (x3), Conn Smythe, Calder, Olympic Gold
Theoren Fleury: Stanley Cup, Olympic Gold, Canada Cup Champion, 2nd Team All Star, 1.01 PPG
Sergei Makarov: Calder, Olympic Gold (x2), Canada Cup Champion, USSR First All-Star Team (x8), USSR Scoring Title (x9), USSR MVP (x3)
Gilmour: Selke, Stanley Cup
Adam Oates: 2nd Team All Star, 1.05 PPG
Dave Andreychuk: Stanley Cup
Phil Housley: 2nd Team All Star, World Cup Champion
Alexander Mogilny: Stanley Cup, Olympic Gold, 2nd Team All Star (x2), Lady Byng, 1.004 PPG
Pierre Turgeon: Lady Byng, 1.01 PPG
Sean Burke: Canada Cup Champion
Brian Bellows: 2nd Team All Star, Stanley Cup, Canada Cup Champion
Dino Ciccarelli: --
Vincent Damphousse: Stanley Cup
Dale Hunter: --
Steve Larmer: Calder, Stanley Cup, Canada Cup Champion
Rick Middleton: Byng, 2nd Team All Star, Canada Cup Champion
Kirk Muller: Stanley Cup
Bernie Nicholls: 1.06 PPG
Brian Propp: Canada Cup Champion
Bobby Smith: Calder, Stanley Cup
Dave Taylor: 2nd Team All Star
Pat Verbeek: Stanley Cup
Mark Howe: 1st Team All Star (x3)
Tom Barrasso: Calder, Vezina, 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star (x2), Stanley Cup (x2)
Doug Wilson: Norris, 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star (x2), Canada Cup Champion
Mike Richter: Stanley Cup, World Cup Champion
Ron Hextall: Canada Cup Champion, Conn Smythe, Vezina, 1st Team All Star
Rick Tocchet: Stanley Cup, Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Gary Suter: Calder, Stanley Cup, 2nd Team All Star, World Cup Champion
Kent Nilsson: 1.21 PPG, Stanley Cup
Neal Broten: Olympic Gold, Stanley Cup
Andy Moog: Stanley Cup (x3)
John Tonelli: 2nd Team All Star (x2), Canada Cup Champion, Stanley Cup (x4)
John Vanbiesbrouck: Vezina, 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star
Tim Kerr: 1.01 PPG, 2nd Team All Star
Charlie Simmer: 1st Team All Star (x2)
Mike Vernon: 2nd Team All Star, Conn Smythe, Stanley Cup (x2)

vs.


Contempoary Hockey Hall Of Fame inductees not considered Top-100 players of all time (per: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=669817 and http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=486479 ):

Michel Goulet: 1st Team All Star (x3) , 2nd Team All Star (x2), 1.04 PPG, Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Pat Lafontaine: 2nd Team All Star, World Cup Champion, 1.15 PPG
Luc Robitaille: Calder, Stanley Cup, Canada Cup Champion, 1st Team All Star (x5), 2nd Team All Star (x3)
Dale Hawerchuk: 1.17 PPG, Calder, 2nd Team All Star, Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Joe Mullen: Lady Byng, 1st Team All Star, Stanley Cup
Denis Savard: 2nd Team All Star, 1.11 PPG, Stanley Cup
Igor Larionov: Olympic Gold (x2), Canada Cup Champion, Stanley Cup (x3), USSR 1st Team All Star (x4), USSR MVP
Mike Gartner: Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Bernie Federko: 1.13 PPG
Rod Langway: Norris (x2), Stanley Cup, 1st Team All Star (x2) , 2nd Team All Star
Larry Murphy: Stanley Cup (x4), 2nd Team All Star (x3), Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Glenn Anderson: Stanley Cup (x6), Canada Cup Champion (x2)
Cam Neely: --
Grant Fuhr: 1st Team All Star, 2nd Team All Star, Vezina, Stanley Cup (x5), Canada Cup Champion (x2)
claude lemieux and brad mccrimmon belong on that list, probably higher than guys like damphousse, verbeek, burke...

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Old
05-08-2010, 08:30 PM
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The only goalie that I'd induct from that crew is Barrasso, though it's hardly a crime that he's on the outside looking in. I just don't see the case for Vernon or Richter, even though they have Stanley Cups. There's no way Vanbiesbrouck gets in Cup-less, and Moog will always have the stigma of being the second-best goalie on the team that made him famous.

Richter doesn't have enough elite seasons IMO, and the lack of a single AST is a little troubling. It was a strong era for goaltenders, so you can make the argument that he got burried behind the likes of Hasek and Roy, but at best he's a borderline top-five goalie from his generation.

Vernon was completely bi-polar in the playoffs. Either a key component on a champion/finalist, or a total disaster. In between his two Cup wins is a string of playoff appearances that ranged from mediocre to abominable, and always for strong teams. I guess it depends on your viewpoint with Vernon. If a Smythe-worthy playoff run absolves all other failures (and from a player and fan of the team in question standpoint, it quite likely does), then I guess you might vote for him. I think the HOF needs to weigh the good with the bad though, and for that reason I think Vernon falls short.

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05-08-2010, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Bolded leading candidates IMO plus oldtimers Claude Provost
Carbo, LeClair, Nieuwendyk, Larmer, Tonelli, and Vernon are not "leading candidates"
over Gilmour or Oates. Or even over Bure, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
These and Sven Tumba and Alexander Maltsev
Sven "Tumba" Johansson, you mean.

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05-08-2010, 09:18 PM
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The Originals

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Sterner is also a lock and so would Holmquist I guess.

From Czechoslovakia we have:

Ivan Hlinka
Jiri Holecek
Vaclav Nedomansky

From Finland:
Timo Jutila

Got to say though that finnish players were a bit weak before 70s-80s.

Russia has too many players really but most notable would be:
Maltsev
Bobrov
Vitaly Davydov
Boris Mikhailov
Viktor Tikhonov as coach ofcourse
Some of the originals, perhaps as a team. Late forties / fifties Czechoslovak National, 1954 Soviet, etc.

Alexander Yakushev.

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05-08-2010, 09:34 PM
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More Decorated

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Carbo, LeClair, Nieuwendyk, Larmer, Tonelli, and Vernon are not "leading candidates"
over Gilmour or Oates. Or even over Bure, really.



Sven "Tumba" Johansson, you mean.
More decorated than Gilmour / Oates and Bure, be it with individual awards or team awards - Stanley Cups. Easier to get in as a Dick Duff than as a Dean Prentice.

Obstacles for the three you favour.

Gilmour - would have to show that the Leafs erred by not keeping him with Sundin for the strong Quinn coaching era teams.

Oates - would have to show that he was more than an elite passer with face-off skills and/or that his polished but limited skills were significant in an era where the transient hockey player is becoming the norm. No different from a finesse defenseman with only offensive skills like Phil Housley where beyond the glowing first impression offense there are gapping holes.

Bure - would have to show that the great difference he brought to the rink in terms of form or sizzle overcame the substance or steak of a Larmer, Leclair, Tonelli, Carbonneau. Good luck on this one. HHOF is very steak oriented.

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05-08-2010, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Carbo, LeClair, Nieuwendyk, Larmer, Tonelli, and Vernon are not "leading candidates"
over Gilmour or Oates. Or even over Bure, really.



Sven "Tumba" Johansson, you mean.
Nobody says Sven Tumba Johansson.

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05-08-2010, 09:55 PM
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seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Nobody says Sven Tumba Johansson.
Nobody calls him Sven Tumba either... Tumba is a nickname, not a last name...

Nobody says Ernie "Moose" Johnson, they say Ernie Johnson or Moose Johnson. Nobody says Aubrey "Dit" Clapper, they say Aubrey Clapper or Dit Clapper.

not Ernie Moose, and not Aubrey Dit.

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05-08-2010, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Some of the originals, perhaps as a team. Late forties / fifties Czechoslovak National, 1954 Soviet, etc.

Alexander Yakushev.
Yakushev? Might as well induct Paul Henderson then.

Okay, that's a little extreme, but Yakushev really wasn't that great outside of '72.

Soviets who should 100% be induced: Makarov, Mikhailov, Maltsev, Vasiliev, Firsov (Kharlamov and Tretiak are already in).

Possibilities: Petrov, Ragulin, Kasatonov, Krutov, Bobrov, Starshinov

Yakushev wouldn't be the worst player inducted (Dick Duff ), but any of the above guys should be inducted first.

Czechs who should 100% be inducted:

Martinec, Nedomansky, Holecek

Possibilities: Suchy, Novy, Hlinka

Coaches Tarasov and Pitner should really be considered too.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 05-09-2010 at 02:51 PM.
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Old
05-08-2010, 10:04 PM
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seventieslord
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Gilmour - would have to show that the Leafs erred by not keeping him with Sundin for the strong Quinn coaching era teams..
Ok, I'll bite.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...y=games_played

Leafs' centers, 1999 through 2004, the Pat Quinn, playoff era.

note the complete lack of secondary offense from the center position aside from Sundin. Sundin played over 200 games more than any other center, and had 366% as many points as any center during this time.

During this time, Gilmour played 349 games and scored 238 points for 0.68 PPG. Capable of being a solid 2nd line center option behind Sundin for 5 seasons. Ideal, no. better than the way things transpired? No doubt. Gilmour yielded the Leafs an impressive rebuilding package which they eventually frittered away. Steve Sullivan was considered expendable to get Khristich. Smith was inexplicably given away. McCauley was useful and given up to get Nolan. Had the Leafs hung on to Gilmour, in retrospect, they likely would have had better results.

So yes, with 13 years' hindsight being 20/20 I can say that trading Gilmour turned out to be a mistake. He had already built up a HHOF case by then, though (the playoff scoring, the years of top-level regular season play, the hart record), so I'm not sure how relevant that is.

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05-08-2010, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yakushev? Might as well induct Paul Henderson then.

Okay, that's a little extreme, but Yakushev really wasn't that great outside of '72.

Soviets who should 100% be induced: Makarov, Mikhailov, Maltsev, Vasiliev (Kharlamov and Tretiak are already in).

Possibilities: Petrov, Ragulin, Kasatonov, Krutov, Bobrov

Yakushev wouldn't be the worst player indicted (Dick Duff ), but any of the above guys should be inducted first.

Czechs who should 100% be inducted:

Martinec, Nedomansky, Holecek

Possibilities: Suchy, Novy, Hlinka

Coaches Tarasov and Pitner should really be considered too.
You guys are sure taking your sweet time getting around to naming Anatoli Firsov.

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05-08-2010, 10:05 PM
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Sven Tumba Johansson

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Nobody calls him Sven Tumba either... Tumba is a nickname, not a last name...

Nobody says Ernie "Moose" Johnson, they say Ernie Johnson or Moose Johnson. Nobody says Aubrey "Dit" Clapper, they say Aubrey Clapper or Dit Clapper.

not Ernie Moose, and not Aubrey Dit.
Actually the Swedes do. His family name was fairly common - a few on the hockey team so the Sven Tumba stuck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sven_Tumba_Johansson

Out of curiosity did a Google for Ernie Moose*, Aubrey Dit and Sven Tumba and all three showed up within the first four listings.

* = well ahead of Bullwinkle.

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05-08-2010, 10:07 PM
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You guys are sure taking your sweet time getting around to naming Anatoli Firsov.
I knew I was forgetting someone but forgot who...

Firsov is in the Top 60 of my HOH top 120 list.

I also forgot his contemporary Starshinov from the maybes.

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05-08-2010, 10:09 PM
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Actually the Swedes do. His family name was fairly common - a few on the hockey team so the Sven Tumba stuck.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sven_Tumba_Johansson

Out of curiosity did a Google for Ernie Moose*, Aubrey Dit and Sven Tumba and all three showed up within the first four listings.

* = well ahead of Bullwinkle.
OK, it's somewhat acceptable to call him Sven Tumba. But you're off your rocker if you think Aubrey Dit and Ernie Moose are acceptable terminology.

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05-08-2010, 10:10 PM
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Others

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Yakushev? Might as well induct Paul Henderson then.

Okay, that's a little extreme, but Yakushev really wasn't that great outside of '72.

Soviets who should 100% be induced: Makarov, Mikhailov, Maltsev, Vasiliev (Kharlamov and Tretiak are already in).

Possibilities: Petrov, Ragulin, Kasatonov, Krutov, Bobrov

Yakushev wouldn't be the worst player indicted (Dick Duff ), but any of the above guys should be inducted first.

Czechs who should 100% be inducted:

Martinec, Nedomansky, Holecek

Possibilities: Suchy, Novy, Hlinka

Coaches Tarasov and Pitner should really be considered too.
Starshinov, Bobrov, Mayorov.

Alexander Yakushev was the first who showed he could play NHL style hockey.

Nikolai Sologubov is interesting but you look at his games vs Canada and the d- game wasn't there.

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05-09-2010, 12:38 AM
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Sterner is also a lock and so would Holmquist I guess.

From Czechoslovakia we have:

Ivan Hlinka
Jiri Holecek
Vaclav Nedomansky

From Finland:
Timo Jutila

Got to say though that finnish players were a bit weak before 70s-80s.

Russia has too many players really but most notable would be:
Maltsev
Bobrov
Vitaly Davydov
Boris Mikhailov
Viktor Tikhonov as coach ofcourse
Hey, I love Ivan Hlinka, but if we're talking about him only as a player, there's no way he should be mentioned before Vladimir Martinec (4-time MVP in the Czechoslovak league and CSSR's all-time top scorer in international tournaments, hello!) and Jan Suchy, for example.

And as someone already said, when does Anatoli Firsov start to get some respect around here? As far as [international] scoring titles & awards & individual skills go, he is basically 2nd to none.

Kind of glad you didn't mention Alexander Yakushev, though. He gets a little too much recognition in North America as it is - mostly because of one great series.

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05-09-2010, 01:26 AM
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Playoffs

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Ok, I'll bite.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...y=games_played

Leafs' centers, 1999 through 2004, the Pat Quinn, playoff era.

note the complete lack of secondary offense from the center position aside from Sundin. Sundin played over 200 games more than any other center, and had 366% as many points as any center during this time.

During this time, Gilmour played 349 games and scored 238 points for 0.68 PPG. Capable of being a solid 2nd line center option behind Sundin for 5 seasons. Ideal, no. better than the way things transpired? No doubt. Gilmour yielded the Leafs an impressive rebuilding package which they eventually frittered away. Steve Sullivan was considered expendable to get Khristich. Smith was inexplicably given away. McCauley was useful and given up to get Nolan. Had the Leafs hung on to Gilmour, in retrospect, they likely would have had better results.

So yes, with 13 years' hindsight being 20/20 I can say that trading Gilmour turned out to be a mistake. He had already built up a HHOF case by then, though (the playoff scoring, the years of top-level regular season play, the hart record), so I'm not sure how relevant that is.
Look at the playoffs, especially 2000 - 2004 and the center depth the Leafs ran into when losing series to NJ 2000/2001, Carolina 2002 ( given Gilmour performance with Montreal against Carolina ), Philadelphia 2003 / 2004.

Issue is whether Doug Gilmour would have been willing to accept a secondary or Henri Richard type role with the Leafs. His stay in Montreal does not point in that direction.

Building up a HHOF portfolio is one thing, sustaining it and finishing the work is another.

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05-09-2010, 01:34 AM
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Quote:
Guy Carbonneau
Pavel Bure
Sergei Makarov
Dino Ciccarelli
I cannot believe hockey history can or will forget these guys! They had such EXCEPTIONAL talent in some areas of their game, had skills that simply were unparalleled. Any Hall of Fame trying to represent hockey history's best would be remiss to leave these guys out!

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05-09-2010, 01:40 AM
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Point Being........

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Hey, I love Ivan Hlinka, but if we're talking about him only as a player, there's no way he should be mentioned before Vladimir Martinec (4-time MVP in the Czechoslovak league and CSSR's all-time top scorer in international tournaments, hello!) and Jan Suchy, for example.

And as someone already said, when does Anatoli Firsov start to get some respect around here? As far as [international] scoring titles & awards & individual skills go, he is basically 2nd to none.

Kind of glad you didn't mention Alexander Yakushev, though. He gets a little too much recognition in North America as it is - mostly because of one great series.
Point being??????????????

Anatoli Firsov seems to lack respect in Russia/the Soviet Union. This is evidenced by the fact that he was left off the 1972 Summit Team while his Soviet contemporaries from the sixties had minor roles. Perception becomes that he wasn't even good enough for such roles.

Alexander Yakushev gets recognition in North America because he could play the NHL style game. Anyone with the least bit of political acuity and voting smarts should realize that getting Alexander Yakushev in would facilitate getting others in which seems to be the objective.

Regardless there is a major overriding dilemma - the Hakan Loob wild card and the selective credit given players for European play and careers. Unless this problem with the poor foundation is remedied the debate will just be going in circles.

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05-09-2010, 01:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Look at the playoffs, especially 2000 - 2004 and the center depth the Leafs ran into when losing series to NJ 2000/2001, Carolina 2002 ( given Gilmour performance with Montreal against Carolina ), Philadelphia 2003 / 2004.
Point being?

Quote:
Issue is whether Doug Gilmour would have been willing to accept a secondary or Henri Richard type role with the Leafs. His stay in Montreal does not point in that direction.
Of course it does.

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Regardless there is a major overriding dilemma - the Hakan Loob wild card and the selective credit given players for European play and careers. Unless this problem with the poor foundation is remedied the debate will just be going in circles.
In trying to determine the all-time greatness of a european player, competition level is very important. if the player played in the NHL - how old was he at the time? How did he perform compared to other NHL players? If he didn't get to the NHL - who else was in the leagues he played in? how good was he compared to them? Without reference points it is tough to determine.

Hakan Loob is not any sort of a wild card. He was a run of the mill first line NHL player while he was here. We saw what he could do against the best. He was good, not great. This is not selective anything. Hasek, Makarov, Fetisov, etc... they are completely different cases.

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05-09-2010, 02:30 AM
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Point being??????????????

Anatoli Firsov seems to lack respect in Russia/the Soviet Union. This is evidenced by the fact that he was left off the 1972 Summit Team while his Soviet contemporaries from the sixties had minor roles. Perception becomes that he wasn't even good enough for such roles.
Yeah, right. If Vsevolod Bobrov equals Russia/the Soviet Union, then you're absolutely correct! (and even for Bobrov, it wasn't about Firsov the PLAYER, as you very well know I'm sure)

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Alexander Yakushev gets recognition in North America because he could play the NHL style game. Anyone with the least bit of political acuity and voting smarts should realize that getting Alexander Yakushev in would facilitate getting others in which seems to be the objective.
Maybe they should re-name it 'HHOF for those who could play the NHL style game'

Anyway, Alexander Yakushev isn't a top 10 player in Soviet hockey history, period (I'd be very interested to see someone making a case for him, though). And no, him getting inducted [before Firsov, Makarov, Mikhailov, Vasiliev etc.] would not probably help matters much (has Tretiak's and Kharlamov's inductions changed things a lot????); it would rather just show the ignorance of the committee.

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