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2010 HHOF Eligbles vs. Contemporary Inductees Outside Top 100 - Quick Glance

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Old
05-09-2010, 01:59 AM
  #26
Canadiens1958
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Points Being..........

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Point being?



Of course it does.



In trying to determine the all-time greatness of a european player, competition level is very important. if the player played in the NHL - how old was he at the time? How did he perform compared to other NHL players? If he didn't get to the NHL - who else was in the leagues he played in? how good was he compared to them? Without reference points it is tough to determine.

Hakan Loob is not any sort of a wild card. He was a run of the mill first line NHL player while he was here. We saw what he could do against the best. He was good, not great. This is not selective anything. Hasek, Makarov, Fetisov, etc... they are completely different cases.
Points being .............. Gilmour in Monttreal played very well against Carolina in 2002, transposed into a deeper Toronto squad chances are he would have made a difference. Against NJ with dept at center BUT probably not enough as NJ had much better d-men. Philly a toss-up.

Gilmour did not integrate well in Montreal. Felt he was entitled to the #1 center role. Which brings us back to his departure from Toronto. Did the Leafs solve a problem or create one by trading Gilmour? Would he have aged gracefully in Toronto accepting reduced roles and playing time?

Re Hakan Loob too many rhetoricals and hypotheticals.unless a detailed comparison of respective European leagues is made.

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Old
05-09-2010, 02:04 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Soviets who should 100% be induced: Makarov, Mikhailov, Maltsev, Vasiliev, Firsov (Kharlamov and Tretiak are already in).
Fetisov is in, too!

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Old
05-09-2010, 02:22 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Nobody calls him Sven Tumba either... Tumba is a nickname, not a last name...

Nobody says Ernie "Moose" Johnson, they say Ernie Johnson or Moose Johnson. Nobody says Aubrey "Dit" Clapper, they say Aubrey Clapper or Dit Clapper.

not Ernie Moose, and not Aubrey Dit.
I just have to bite on this one! Actually, Sven Tumba legally changed his lastname from Johansson to Tumba in 1965. Undoubtedly one of Swedens greatest players.

Starred before Swedish players were playing in the NHL. Member of the extremely successful Djurgården squad in the 50s/60s, winning 8 championships in ten years, including 6 in a row. Inventor of the first hockey helmet and major contributor to Swedish youth tournament TV-pucken. Also a national champion in Football in 1956 and 1959, 5 international caps. National team Tre kronor's leading scorer at 186 goals in 245 games. Legally changed his name to Sven Tumba after his birthplace Tumba, after having been teamed up with another Sven Johansson. 2 all-star team selections (The honor was not introduced until 58-59, his peak was during the 50s. Had his own radio show and recorded his own LP. Major contributor to the introduction of golf in Sweden. An amazing sportsman. He would be the first guy inducted in my Swedish Hall of Fame.

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05-09-2010, 02:31 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Points being .............. Gilmour in Monttreal played very well against Carolina in 2002, transposed into a deeper Toronto squad chances are he would have made a difference. Against NJ with dept at center BUT probably not enough as NJ had much better d-men. Philly a toss-up.

Gilmour did not integrate well in Montreal. Felt he was entitled to the #1 center role. Which brings us back to his departure from Toronto. Did the Leafs solve a problem or create one by trading Gilmour? Would he have aged gracefully in Toronto accepting reduced roles and playing time?

Re Hakan Loob too many rhetoricals and hypotheticals.unless a detailed comparison of respective European leagues is made.
Gilmour's TOI from that season indicates that he was, in fact, their #1 center in the regular season and the playoffs. Joe Juneau averaged just a bit less than him . Koivu likely would have played more than them had he been healthy, but then again, he was healthy in the playoffs and averaged 5 minutes per game less than Gilmour. The next season Gilmour was 39 and it would be ludicrous for him to "sxpect" anything.

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Old
05-09-2010, 07:08 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Hakan Loob is not any sort of a wild card. He was a run of the mill first line NHL player while he was here. We saw what he could do against the best. He was good, not great. This is not selective anything. Hasek, Makarov, Fetisov, etc... they are completely different cases.
Same could be said about Neely, Oates, Gilmour etc... They were good, not great.

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Old
05-09-2010, 12:50 PM
  #31
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Same could be said about Neely, Oates, Gilmour etc... They were good, not great.
I've already shown you a number of ways Neely is better than Loob. And he doesn't compare to Oates and Gilmour, so......

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Old
05-09-2010, 01:54 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Point being??????????????

Anatoli Firsov seems to lack respect in Russia/the Soviet Union. This is evidenced by the fact that he was left off the 1972 Summit Team while his Soviet contemporaries from the sixties had minor roles. Perception becomes that he wasn't even good enough for such roles.

Alexander Yakushev gets recognition in North America because he could play the NHL style game. Anyone with the least bit of political acuity and voting smarts should realize that getting Alexander Yakushev in would facilitate getting others in which seems to be the objective.

Regardless there is a major overriding dilemma - the Hakan Loob wild card and the selective credit given players for European play and careers. Unless this problem with the poor foundation is remedied the debate will just be going in circles.
LOL. Firsov lacking respect in the Soviet Union? He's always in the conversation for best player ever from the USSR among those who closely followed Soviet hockey.

(Leaving him off my original list was kind of embarassing to tell the truth).

I guess North Americans showed that we didn't really respect Bobby Hull by leaving him out of the Summit Series, right?

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Old
05-09-2010, 02:00 PM
  #33
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Wow, it really is Hakan Loob day at the HOH forum.

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Old
05-09-2010, 03:04 PM
  #34
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But He Did

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Gilmour's TOI from that season indicates that he was, in fact, their #1 center in the regular season and the playoffs. Joe Juneau averaged just a bit less than him . Koivu likely would have played more than them had he been healthy, but then again, he was healthy in the playoffs and averaged 5 minutes per game less than Gilmour. The next season Gilmour was 39 and it would be ludicrous for him to "sxpect" anything.
But he did. The next season his playing time was reduced by almost two minutes per game. He was producing slightly more but whining so the Canadiens moved him to the Leafs where he blew out a knee.

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Old
05-09-2010, 04:52 PM
  #35
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Gilmour was not moved because he was whining. He was a desired rental player going from a poor team to a playoff team.

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Old
05-09-2010, 05:03 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Coaches Tarasov and Pitner should really be considered too.
Tarasov was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1974.

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05-09-2010, 05:35 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Actually the Swedes do. His family name was fairly common - a few on the hockey team so the Sven Tumba stuck.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sven_Tumba_Johansson[/url
He actually legally changed his last name to Tumba in 1965.

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Old
05-09-2010, 08:06 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Blades of Glory View Post
Wow, it really is Hakan Loob day at the HOH forum.
Except being a all-time leader in playoffs SHG, I fail to see why Loob is relevant in a HHOF discussion. Heck, I don't even know why it Loob, not Naslund (Mats) that was brought up in this discussion.

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Old
05-09-2010, 08:41 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
Same could be said about Neely, Oates, Gilmour etc... They were good, not great.
How was Neely not great?

He was a four time All-Star at right wing, (every 4 or more time All-Star right-winger in history is in the Hall. Tell me what makes Neely different....? Nothing. Only ignorance).

Four times in the top ten for goals, two of them being top three, and all four of them being top five in goals per game.

One of the most prolific playoff goal scorers in NHL history, (up there with names like Lemieux, Bossy and Richard for goals per game).

Tied with Lemieux for the second fastest 50 goals in a season, (44 games, while playing on one knee no less), only Gretzky ever hit the mark faster.

At his peak (90/91 regular season and playoffs [pre-Ulf]), he was one of the most elite players in the world. Other than Gretzky, Mario, Messier, Yzerman, and Hull there wasn't a player in the league who any GM would not have been traded in a heartbeat for Neely.

.....oh, and by the way, during all of this he was also among one of the most feared physical forces in the game. Game changing hits and brutal fisticuffs (when necessary) were par for the course.

I really should just quote a God Bless Canada post from a few years ago:
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Originally Posted by God Bless Canada View Post
There are two reasons that Neely's in the HHOF. And when you bring them together, he should be a no-brainer selection for the HHOF.

The first is definition. He DEFINED the power forward role. Every power forward that comes along for many, many years to come, will have Cam Neely as the measuring stick. It's a measuring stick that only one, Jarome Iginla, had matched. This is not to say that Neely was the first real power forward. He wasn't. Charlie Conacher was a power forward by every definition of the term. But Neely was the first one to get the label of the power forward. Every scout for the last 20 years has been searching for the next Cam Neely. Call it a hunch, I think they'll be seeking for the next Neely for the next 30 years.

Cam Neely is probably one of the 10 or 15 most important players from the game in the last 25 years.

The other reason is playoffs. One of the best playoff performers of his generation. Fourth in career post-season goals per game. Why did Roy hate playing Neely so much? Maybe it's because of the way Neely utterly dominated the Habs in 1988, when the Bruins ended a 40-year post-season drought against Montreal. Or maybe it was Neely's follow-up two years later, when Boston once again dominated the Habs. In 1991, he was an Ulf Samuelsson knee away from leading Boston back to the Cup (that hit changed the entire complexion of the series), and Neely would have certainly set a post-season goals record in the process. (He had 16 in the first three rounds). He had that big-game, high-pressure mentality that can't be taught. When the game was on the line, he wanted to be on the ice. He wanted to be the hero, and he had the ability to do it.

You can cite all the regular season statistical smoke and accolades you want. Personally, when it comes HHOFers, I'd vote for Neely, who defined the game, and dominated in the playoffs, ahead of guys with great career numbers, like an Adam Oates, or even a Dale Hawerchuk or a Denis Savard - great players deserving of the HHOF, but not guys who defined their role, who did things that will make them memorable 25 years from now.

Twenty-five years from now, when we're still searching for the next Neely, nobody will question his place in the HHOF. Those who were fortunate enough to watch him, with an unbiased eye, will rave about how fantastic he truly was.

Those who question Neely's place in the HHOF, have no idea what it takes to truly be great.

Outside of Messier, there hasn't been a better combination of goal scoring ability and physical play the last 30 years than Cam Neely.

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Old
05-09-2010, 08:46 PM
  #40
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Interpretation

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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Gilmour was not moved because he was whining. He was a desired rental player going from a poor team to a playoff team.
Media generated perception interpreted from a few thousand KM away.


Last edited by Canadiens1958: 05-09-2010 at 08:59 PM. Reason: typo
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05-09-2010, 09:39 PM
  #41
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Hhof:

Donald Hamilton McKenney, Fleming MacKell, Douglas Mohns....

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05-09-2010, 09:58 PM
  #42
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Donald Hamilton McKenney, Fleming MacKell, Douglas Mohns....
That would be the Original 6 equivalent of inducting Bobby Smith, Fred Stanfield, and Sergei Zubov.

Hall of Very Good.

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05-09-2010, 10:14 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
That would be the Original 6 equivalent of inducting Bobby Smith, Fred Stanfield, and Sergei Zubov.

Hall of Very Good.
Pretty fair comparisons there. but look out, you just opened up a can of worms.

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Old
05-10-2010, 12:03 AM
  #44
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I know LeClair has the all-star team nods that others don't, but if I was making a list of Flyers to vote on for the Hall of Fame he'd be no higher than 5th on the list, and could be as low as 8th.

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05-10-2010, 12:09 AM
  #45
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I know LeClair has the all-star team nods that others don't, but if I was making a list of Flyers to vote on for the Hall of Fame he'd be no higher than 5th on the list, and could be as low as 8th.
Curious to see your list.

Mark Howe is obviously first. Lindros second?

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05-10-2010, 01:46 AM
  #46
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Curious to see your list.

Mark Howe is obviously first. Lindros second?
I'm not saying that I would vote for all of the following players, but my list would be:

Howe ... a crime he's waited this long.

Lindros ... I would have had no problem with him not being inducted, but with Neely's enshrinement, Lindros must go in

Propp/Desjardins ... Two of the most underrated players of their generations.

Recchi

I have Leclair below all 5 of the above .... and would include him alongside Brind'amour and Tocchet. I think arguments can be made for each of the 3, as to which was the better player, but they are very close.

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05-10-2010, 03:29 AM
  #47
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McKenney, MacKell, Mohns:

I hate comparing players, for a variety of reasons, but if pressed i would say Don Mckenney, a very unique talent, resembled Rick Middleton & Adam Oates......Smooth & classy as Contemporaries, Alex..Ratelle....A cleaner, less physical version of Jean Beliveau....The intelligence of Joe Juneau......A shark around the net, deflection, tip in scoring flair ala Toni Tanti....Bobby Smith was also a very inventive, steady Center...Fred Stanfield with more talent, team value, prominence...


Fleming MacKell reminded me of Wendel Clark, with a certain touch of Maurice Richard...Doug Mohns: Bill White,..... Red Kelly in terms of positional versatility & career lenght


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Old
05-10-2010, 03:41 AM
  #48
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I'm not saying that I would vote for all of the following players, but my list would be:

Howe ... a crime he's waited this long.

Lindros ... I would have had no problem with him not being inducted, but with Neely's enshrinement, Lindros must go in

Propp/Desjardins ... Two of the most underrated players of their generations.

Recchi

I have Leclair below all 5 of the above .... and would include him alongside Brind'amour and Tocchet. I think arguments can be made for each of the 3, as to which was the better player, but they are very close.
Recchi's a lock by this point in my opinion, but not just for what he did with the Flyers. I didn't really see Propp in his prime.

Desjardins vs. Leclair is tough. I watched a lot of Flyers/Devils battles over the years, and Desjardins was the only Flyers defenseman of that era who I ever saw making a difference when he was on the ice. And he made a huge difference. But on the other hand, Leclair was considered the best LW in the world for quite a few years (ahead of Kariya, Tkachuk, and Shanahan).

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Old
05-10-2010, 03:43 AM
  #49
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.Fleming MacKell reminded me of Wendel Clark, with a touch of Maurice Richard..
So basically someone who people would laugh at even the notion of getting into the HOF, with a touch of a Top 10 All-Time player?

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05-10-2010, 04:31 AM
  #50
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Boston Bruins History Dvd:

Not to worry, detractors of my 3 choices for induction should take heart: Neither Don Mckenney, Fleming MacKell nor Doug Mohns are so much as shown or mentioned, a complete Stalinization ostracizing job. other 50s regulars...Jerry Toppazzini..Cal Gardner..Bob Armstrong....larry Reagan..Allan Stanley.... this Flash Hollett from the 1940s.......Nor is Leo Boivin WHO IS in the HOF!!... Simply surreal!!


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