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Gradin's Van/NYI proposal

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05-11-2004, 02:56 PM
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CREW99AW
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Gradin's Van/NYI proposal

Gradin on the Isles mania board came up with an interesting trade proposal.

The Sedin twins gave an interview expressing unease that Burke their biggest booster,has been let go by the Canucks.

Gradin proposed Peca,Nilsson+2nd for the Sedin twins.


Opinions?

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05-11-2004, 03:02 PM
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Peter Griffin
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Pass. The Sedins are just starting to show signs of becoming good NHL'ers, no point trading them now. I like Peca, but I don't like his contract and the fact that he's 7 years older then the Sedins. This trade makes little sense for the Canucks.

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05-11-2004, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
Pass. The Sedins are just starting to show signs of becoming good NHL'ers, no point trading them now. I like Peca, but I don't like his contract and the fact that he's 7 years older then the Sedins. This trade makes little sense for the Canucks.

I agree, Peter.

As an Islander fan, I'd love to see this deal go down. But, it favors the Isles for all of the reasons Peter suggests.

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05-11-2004, 03:18 PM
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Peter Griffin
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But Peca would be a guy that I would like to see on the Canucks. His contract is a bit pricey, but the Canucks need more players like Peca IMO. If the Isles were to trade Peca, what do you think they would want in return?

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05-11-2004, 03:27 PM
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Drake1588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
But Peca would be a guy that I would like to see on the Canucks. His contract is a bit pricey, but the Canucks need more players like Peca IMO. If the Isles were to trade Peca, what do you think they would want in return?
If the Canucks were ready to make a concerted push, if Naslund and Bertuzzi both were definitely in the fold, then I could see interest in a last dash with that team at a realistic Cup drive... but it would have to be Peca plus another useful current player. Subtract Nilsson and suggest someone more established, perhaps.

It's a shame the Islanders do not have an extra young goalie after DiPietro to deal, because Peca and a goalie for the Sedins would not be far off.

Of course, there is talk that the Islanders want to turn their wealth of defense into something more...

Peca and Aucoin for the Sedins plus Salo or Sopel? Might well be more salary than Vancouver would be prepared to absorb. They'd still need a goalie.

It's difficult to hazard a guess, given that it remains unclear what Nonis' marching orders will be from ownership. Get younger or stock up for a legitimate run? Hard to tell.

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05-11-2004, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
But Peca would be a guy that I would like to see on the Canucks. His contract is a bit pricey, but the Canucks need more players like Peca IMO. If the Isles were to trade Peca, what do you think they would want in return?

Look at what the Isles wouldn't budge off of, when discussing a Peca trade last Nov./Dec.-rookie bluechipper Matt Stajan.

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05-11-2004, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
But Peca would be a guy that I would like to see on the Canucks. His contract is a bit pricey, but the Canucks need more players like Peca IMO. If the Isles were to trade Peca, what do you think they would want in return?

Can't say. If the Isles can afford him, they'll keep Peca and try and get his name on an extension. In any case, the Nucks don't really have TRADEABLE assets (that is, players they want to and are willing to deal) that the Isles would want.

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05-11-2004, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake1588
Peca and Aucoin for the Sedins plus Salo or Sopel? Might well be more salary than Vancouver would be prepared to absorb. They'd still need a goalie.

.

take Salo and Sopel out.Neither's the physical bruiser the nyi need.

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05-11-2004, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CREW99AW
take Salo and Sopel out.Neither's the physical bruiser the nyi need.
No doubt. I guess the thought was that for the shot in the arm of youth the Sedins would bring, the Islanders would deal one of their top four defensemen and downgrade. Someone like Allen, for example, Vancouver would not deal. The Islanders would presumably want a starting defenseman of some kind back, however.

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05-11-2004, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake1588
No doubt. I guess the thought was that for the shot in the arm of youth the Sedins would bring, the Islanders would deal one of their top four defensemen and downgrade. Someone like Allen, for example, Vancouver would not deal. The Islanders would presumably want a starting defenseman of some kind back, however.
The Islanders don't really need youth per se -- they are not like the Wings or Leafs, teams of older vets that need to "get younger." The Isles only had two players I can think of off the top of my head that are over 30, Snow and Ronning. The rest are all 30 and under.

I don't see them opening up a hole in their D just to get some youth. What they need is top-line scoring talent. Although they are just now hitting their stride and so of course still can develop in that vein, I don't think either Sedin really has that "gamebreaker" scoring potential we need. Their other need is a physical stay-at-home defender. Also something neither Sedin woud provide.

So, although the Sedins are undeniably good young players, they don't really anwer our needs. They also would creat a glut at the wing because neither is the answer on our first line, and we already have several second-line wingers on the team that we can't find ice time for.

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05-11-2004, 04:02 PM
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There really isn't anything on the Isles roster I'd move the Twins for. It'd have to be a real knock-my-socks-off type deal for me to be on board.

The Twins showed signs of being superstars someday, nevermind just stars. For about 30 games, they point-a-gamed getting less than 15 minutes of ice time.

If I was the GM of the Canucks and I'm moving the Twins to the Islanders, I'm probobly looking for Rick DiPietro + Peca or something. And I don't think the Isles want to do that either.

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05-11-2004, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drake1588
No doubt. I guess the thought was that for the shot in the arm of youth the Sedins would bring, the Islanders would deal one of their top four defensemen and downgrade. Someone like Allen, for example, Vancouver would not deal. The Islanders would presumably want a starting defenseman of some kind back, however.
Wang's made it clear that until his young players are arbitration eligible,he'll only give them the minimum amount that the cba calls for.

The isles would be shedding almost $5m worth of salary if they exchanged Peca/Aucoin for the twins..enough that they could make an offer for a vet like Klee,Boughner,O'delein,Wesley.

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05-11-2004, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
But Peca would be a guy that I would like to see on the Canucks. His contract is a bit pricey, but the Canucks need more players like Peca IMO. If the Isles were to trade Peca, what do you think they would want in return?
What would the Isles want? I haven't a clue because the team lacks direction and $$$.

What I would initially propose to Vancouver, were they to inquire about Peca:

Kesler
Allen

for

Peca
Cairns

Yes, you are giving up years, but one assumes that you would be looking for an in-his-prime veteran presence like Peca because you wanted to actually win something in the next 3-5 years. (A foreign concept to some on HF. ) Cairns is a spare dman, a #6, nothing more, but he does provide a physical presence.

Kesler and Allen would harken a different direction for NYI, as I am convinced this team does not have the required talent to win anything of note and they do not possess the desire to spend $$$ on proven NHL talent that wins Cups. So, a calibrated (modest) rebuild is in order. This would be a start. (I'd move Kesler to LW, though his #1 position is C.)

Reality is that this scenario deviates from NYI's "strive for mediocrity" strategy that they seem prepared to continue to pursue. However, the good news is that it should satisfy some NYI fans who covet younger talent.


Last edited by Trottier: 05-11-2004 at 04:22 PM.
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05-11-2004, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
What would the Isles want? I haven't a clue because the team lacks direction and $$$.

What I would initially propose to Vancouver, were they to inquire about Peca:

Kesler
Allen

for

Peca
Cairns

Yes, you are giving up years, but one assumes that you would be looking for an in-his-prime veteran presence like Peca because you wanted to actually win something in the next 3-5 years. (A foreign concept to some on HF. ) Cairns is a spare dman, a #6, nothing more, but he does provide a physical presence.

Kesler and Allen would harken a different direction for NYI, as I am convinced this team does not have the required talent to win anything of note and they do not possess the desire to spend $$$ on proven NHL talent that wins Cups. So, a calibrated (modest) rebuild is in order. This would be a start. (I'd move Kesler to LW, though his #1 position is C.)

Reality is that this scenario deviates from NYI's "strive for mediocrity" strategy that they seem prepared to continue to pursue. However, the good news is that it should satisfy some NYI fans who covet younger talent.
First of all, Cairns is an impending UFA.

Second, if this is all the Isles can get for Peca, why bother?

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05-11-2004, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier

Kesler
Allen

for

Peca
Cairns

It's been posted that Cairns can opt for unrestricted free agency this summer.

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05-11-2004, 04:42 PM
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Until someone verifies that Cairns is in fact a UFA, I'm working on the assumption he is not. Have read numerous conflicting reports on this point.

Second, Darth, Pyatt and Connelly were too much for Peca, but Kesler and Allen are not enough?

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05-11-2004, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Until someone verifies that Cairns is in fact a UFA, I'm working on the assumption he is not. Have read numerous conflicting reports on this point.

Second, Darth, Pyatt and Connelly were too much for Peca, but Kesler and Allen are not enough?

Cairn's isn't officially an UFA yet. But, it is his option to declare himself a UFA. Because players like that almost never pass up the opportunity, I think you can pretty much think of Cairns as an UFA.

Pyatt and Connolly were both top 10 picks who were only a year or two past their draft year. Either player alone had more trade value than the two players you offer would right now. Allen has good potential, but he has been banged up a lot and still hasn't shown he can be a top four dman.

Ryan Kesler may develop, but we are talking about a kid who had 2 goals in 28 games. I'm certainly not saying he won't be a player but the odds aren't really great.

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05-11-2004, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Milbury
Cairn's isn't officially an UFA yet. But, it is his option to declare himself a UFA. Because players like that almost never pass up the opportunity, I think you can pretty much think of Cairns as an UFA.

Pyatt and Connolly were both top 10 picks who were only a year or two past their draft year. Either player alone had more trade value than the two players you offer would right now. Allen has good potential, but he has been banged up a lot and still hasn't shown he can be a top four dman.

Ryan Kesler may develop, but we are talking about a kid who had 2 goals in 28 games. I'm certainly not saying he won't be a player but the odds aren't really great.
One thing you're not mentioning thought Darth is that the 2004 version of Mike Peca is SUBSTANTIALLY different than the 2001 version you acquired. Peca's offensive production has fallen way off, he doesn't seem to be the physical force that I remember, and he's making $4M per year which seems higher with the CBA upcoming.

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05-11-2004, 05:18 PM
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So what direction do you want to go?

Peca, if I'm reading you and others correctly, is "old" and rapidly headed toward that dreaded UFA age, and NYI doesn't want any of those type, it is suggested.

Isles clearly do not want to spend the required $$$ to bring in established NHL talent, nor is that the direction you personally wish to see them go. (You recently suggested that NYI should get younger on the backline.)

Moving Peca for a similar player is a lateral move. And in the case of this hypothetical with Vancouver, the Canucks, a contender, are not going to give up core talent, and they possess some good young talent.

So again, what is wanted/expected? Talent that is young, cheap, and proven?

Just trying to get a read here.

Peca is my favorite Isalnder, and I would actually feel much more comfortable going into next season with him as the Isles #1 center, rather than the enigmatic $90M Russian. (If Calgary can get this far with Conroy as its #1, so too can NYI with Peca, IMO, assuming they improve in other areas.) But the return here is fair, and I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the two Vancouver players. Projection here is that Allen will be a top 4 rearguard and Kesler will be a solid second-line NHL forward. Only time will tell.


Last edited by Trottier: 05-11-2004 at 05:24 PM.
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05-11-2004, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beukeboom Fan
One thing you're not mentioning thought Darth is that the 2004 version of Mike Peca is SUBSTANTIALLY different than the 2001 version you acquired. Peca's offensive production has fallen way off, he doesn't seem to be the physical force that I remember, and he's making $4M per year which seems higher with the CBA upcoming.

So? I didn't claim that Peca was worth more than Trottier offered merely that it wasn't worth trading him at this point if that was all the return might be. I didn't suggest the return would be greater.

As for the other part of the equation, I was disputing Trottier's implication that Pyatt/Connolly = Kesler/Allen. In one case you have two stud prospects (albiet guys who later did not work out). In the other case, you've got two relative long shots.

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05-11-2004, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
So what direction do you want to go?

Peca, if I'm reading you and others correctly, is "old" and rapidly headed toward that dreaded UFA age, and NYI doesn't want any of those type, it is suggested.

Isles clearly do not want to spend the required $$$ to bring in established NHL talent, nor is that the direction you personally wish to see them go. (You recently suggested that NYI should get younger on the backline.)

Moving Peca for a similar player is a lateral move. And in the case of this hypothetical with Vancouver, the Canucks, a contender, are not going to give up core talent, and they possess some good young talent.

So again, what is wanted/expected? Talent that is young, cheap, and proven?

Just trying to get a read here.

Peca is my favorite Isalnder, and I would actually feel much more comfortable going into next season with him as the Isles #1 center, rather than the enigmatic $90M Russian. (If Calgary can get this far with Conroy as its #1, so too can NYI with Peca, IMO, assuming they improve in other areas.) But the return here is fair, and I respectfully disagree with your assessment of the two Vancouver players. Projection here is that Allen will be a top 4 rearguard and Kesler will be a solid second-line NHL forward. Only time will tell.
When did you see me suggest we should trade Peca? I thought getting him was a dumb move to begin with, but I see no point in moving him at this point. We spent the price to acquire him, now I think we have to live with it. There is no way we're going to get fair return under the circumstances, so I see little to gain from moving him.

Allen may be a top four dman, and Kesler could be a solid # 2 forward. Both outcomes are possible, but both outcomes are also unlikely. I'd rather stick with Peca.

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05-11-2004, 05:33 PM
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Peter Griffin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier

Yes, you are giving up years, but one assumes that you would be looking for an in-his-prime veteran presence like Peca because you wanted to actually win something in the next 3-5 years. (A foreign concept to some on HF. ) Cairns is a spare dman, a #6, nothing more, but he does provide a physical presence.

Kesler and Allen would harken a different direction for NYI, as I am convinced this team does not have the required talent to win anything of note and they do not possess the desire to spend $$$ on proven NHL talent that wins Cups. So, a calibrated (modest) rebuild is in order. This would be a start. (I'd move Kesler to LW, though his #1 position is C.)

Reality is that this scenario deviates from NYI's "strive for mediocrity" strategy that they seem prepared to continue to pursue. However, the good news is that it should satisfy some NYI fans who covet younger talent.
I don't know if the Canucks could part with that much youth though, especially at a position where the Canucks are fairly deep. I like Peca, but I, and most other Canucks fans, are probably not willing to part with the assets it would take to land him. He'd be a nice addition, but not at the expense of Allen and Kesler, that's a hefty price to pay.

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05-11-2004, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin
I don't know if the Canucks could part with that much youth though, especially at a position where the Canucks are fairly deep. I like Peca, but I, and most other Canucks fans, are probably not willing to part with the assets it would take to land him. He'd be a nice addition, but not at the expense of Allen and Kesler, that's a hefty price to pay.

I agree with you too, Peter. I think that is too much youth for Canucks to sacrifice. It isn't a deal that works for either side, IMO.

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05-11-2004, 07:37 PM
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i think this boils down to the fact that fans of both teams agree upon every time a proposal starts between these two teams:

they aren't very good trading partners. Vancouver's assets just don't fit the Islander's needs.

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05-11-2004, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaVal575
i think this boils down to the fact that fans of both teams agree upon every time a proposal starts between these two teams:

they aren't very good trading partners. Vancouver's assets just don't fit the Islander's needs.
Agreed 100%. If the Isles move Peca it will be to a team like Toronto who has youth, size, and the money to replace what they lose.

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