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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Shanahan v. Tkachuk v. Roberts

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Old
05-10-2010, 12:05 AM
  #1
charliolemieux
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Shanahan v. Tkachuk v. Roberts

The only members of the 50g and 200pim club if I am remebering correctly.

So who do you take?

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05-10-2010, 12:08 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Shanahan easily. This might actually be close if Tkachuk did anything in the playoffs in St. Louis.

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05-10-2010, 12:14 AM
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charliolemieux
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Shanahan easily. This might actually be close if Tkachuk did anything in the playoffs in St. Louis.
Roberts made significant conrtibutions in the post season. Put a LEafs team on his back and carried them while having two shoulders requiring off season surgery.

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05-10-2010, 02:18 AM
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Shanahan easily.

Tkachuk was Shanahan's equal in the regular season, but nowhere close in the playoffs.

Roberts was close to Shanahan in the playoffs, but (save for one year) not nearly as good in the regular season.

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05-10-2010, 06:43 AM
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Canadiens1958
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Brendan Shanahan

Brendan Shanahan overall game, skills and team contributions were superior.

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05-10-2010, 06:53 AM
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begbeee
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Shanahan.

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05-10-2010, 07:10 AM
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I thought Tocchet finished a season 50-200, but he missed it by 2 goals in 1992-93.

48 goals - 252 PIMs

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05-10-2010, 07:35 AM
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Blades of Glory
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Keith Tkachuk is literally one strong playoff run out of the HHOF. I never understood why he was so bad in the postseason. Honestly, why could he just not score?

One would think a player of his toughness and a goal-scorer of his type, as someone who scored most of his goals by bulling his way to the front of the net, would manage at least one solid playoff run. In the playoffs, that's exactly the type of goal-scorer you want; someone who drives the net and doesn't need much free space to score goals. I can give him a pass for what happened in Winnipeg and Phoenix, because it's not like his teams were very good, but man, he blew it in St. Louis.

2001 was probably his best shot, and he actually played decently until the Conference Finals, when Adam Foote simply wiped him off the face of the earth. St. Louis had a brilliant chance that year, because Colorado was without Peter Forsberg and Joe Sakic was playing through a shoulder injury. The Blues just could not score that one goal that could have turned the tide. Patrick Roy wasn't at his best, either, during that series. Pierre Turgeon played his heart out and gave them a chance, but with Tkachuk in Foote's back pocket, they couldn't get that one goal.

Now I know I'm not the only one on this board that finds Brendan Shanahan's playoff legacy to be over-stated. He had two very good Cup runs (97 and 02), but was never anything close to Detroit's best forward in those playoffs, and outside those two years, his playoff career is pretty mediocre. Being a complete non-factor in 1998, when the Wings won the Cup again doesn't help. Let's face it, Shanahan was a solid playoff performer, but Sergei Fedorov and Nick Lidstrom, and when healthy, Steve Yzerman, did most of the heavy lifting in those 3 Cup wins. The disparity between Fedorov and Shanahan in Stanley Cup Finals production in those 3 wins is massive.

That said, it's pretty obvious Shanahan is the best of the three, and it's not really close. If Roberts didn't have the neck problems, he may have challenged Shanahan. Roberts was a warrior, though, and no matter what he did in the regular season, he raised his game in the playoffs.

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05-10-2010, 10:24 AM
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Shanahan!

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05-10-2010, 10:43 AM
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reckoning
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Kevin Stevens is also a member of the 50/200 club. (1991-92)

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05-10-2010, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades of Glory View Post
Keith Tkachuk is literally one strong playoff run out of the HHOF. I never understood why he was so bad in the postseason. Honestly, why could he just not score?

One would think a player of his toughness and a goal-scorer of his type, as someone who scored most of his goals by bulling his way to the front of the net, would manage at least one solid playoff run. In the playoffs, that's exactly the type of goal-scorer you want; someone who drives the net and doesn't need much free space to score goals. I can give him a pass for what happened in Winnipeg and Phoenix, because it's not like his teams were very good, but man, he blew it in St. Louis.

2001 was probably his best shot, and he actually played decently until the Conference Finals, when Adam Foote simply wiped him off the face of the earth. St. Louis had a brilliant chance that year, because Colorado was without Peter Forsberg and Joe Sakic was playing through a shoulder injury. The Blues just could not score that one goal that could have turned the tide. Patrick Roy wasn't at his best, either, during that series. Pierre Turgeon played his heart out and gave them a chance, but with Tkachuk in Foote's back pocket, they couldn't get that one goal.

Now I know I'm not the only one on this board that finds Brendan Shanahan's playoff legacy to be over-stated. He had two very good Cup runs (97 and 02), but was never anything close to Detroit's best forward in those playoffs, and outside those two years, his playoff career is pretty mediocre. Being a complete non-factor in 1998, when the Wings won the Cup again doesn't help. Let's face it, Shanahan was a solid playoff performer, but Sergei Fedorov and Nick Lidstrom, and when healthy, Steve Yzerman, did most of the heavy lifting in those 3 Cup wins. The disparity between Fedorov and Shanahan in Stanley Cup Finals production in those 3 wins is massive.

That said, it's pretty obvious Shanahan is the best of the three, and it's not really close. If Roberts didn't have the neck problems, he may have challenged Shanahan. Roberts was a warrior, though, and no matter what he did in the regular season, he raised his game in the playoffs.
Before Tkachuk came to St. Louis, he actually sort of had a reputation as a clutch player that teams really wanted. It's why St. Louis threw a 10 million dollar per year contract at him. His teams in Winnipeg/Phoenix never went anywhere, but Tkachuk was always one of their best players, scoring at the same clip in the playoffs as he did in the regular season. Keith was also huge for the US in the 1996 World Cup of Hockey win over Team Canada.

But then he went to St. Louis, a team with an actual chance to do something in the playoffs, and he was outright terrible. My guess is that it was a combination of several factors:

1) Keith was probably actually on the decline by the time he came to St. Louis. It often happens early with power forwards, due to the constant beatings they take. He never scored 40 goals in the regular season again, and he routinely missed 10-20 games per year. So he was physically unable to do everything he could do when he was younger. Yet, his playoff production was still much worse than his regular season production.

2) Keith's game was pretty one-dimensional. In the playoffs, predictable players like Keith are much easier to stop, when you can design systems to specifically stop them. You saw this to a lesser extent with Dave Andreychuk. Keith was always the best goal scorer on his team, everywhere he went, so he is the guy that teams always went out of their way to stop. And they were pretty much always successful in the playoffs after he joined St. Louis.

3) I think Keith was a guy who got too into the physical game and forgot to do what he needed to score goals. You see it sometimes with Ovechkin in the playoffs, but not nearly as badly. (Also Ovechkin is a much better player than Keith). It would explain why a guy like Foote could totally take Keith off his game by distracting him with the rough stuff Keith could never turn down.

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05-10-2010, 10:57 AM
  #12
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
3) I think Keith was a guy who got too into the physical game and forgot to do what he needed to score goals. You see it sometimes with Ovechkin in the playoffs, but not nearly as badly. (Also Ovechkin is a much better player than Keith). It would explain why a guy like Foote could totally take Keith off his game by distracting him with the rough stuff Keith could never turn down.
This is true of a lot of "power forwards", and why several of them have underwhelming playoff resumes compared to what stereotypical thinking suggests. Another good example of this would be Bertuzzi in 2002, who got so wrapped up in his "war" with Chelios (which was at least partially media-created) that he barely did anything offensively.

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05-10-2010, 11:00 AM
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Kevin Stevens is also a member of the 50/200 club. (1991-92)
Both Shanahan and Stevens really took power forward playstyles to the absolute peak for a single season. They both are the only players in history to score 50+ goals, 100+pts and 200+ PIM.

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05-10-2010, 11:00 AM
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seventieslord
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Shanahan.

Tkachuk is probably not remembered as fondly as Roberts for a variety of reasons (holdouts, overweight issue, playoff struggles) but an objective comparison of the two would still likely reveal him to be the far superior player as well.

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05-10-2010, 11:08 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Shanahan.

Tkachuk is probably not remembered as fondly as Roberts for a variety of reasons (holdouts, overweight issue, playoff struggles) but an objective comparison of the two would still likely reveal him to be the far superior player as well.
To me, it's pretty obviously Shanahan >> Tkachuk >>> Roberts.

Teams designed schemes to stop Tkachuk in the playoffs, and they were successful. Nobody bothered to design schemes to stop Roberts. He was more of an elite complimentary player who came up big in the playoffs to take the pressure off the actual stars. But he was never the guy counted on to carry the team like Tkachuk was.

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05-10-2010, 11:08 AM
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Shanahan.

Tkachuk is probably not remembered as fondly as Roberts for a variety of reasons (holdouts, overweight issue, playoff struggles) but an objective comparison of the two would still likely reveal him to be the far superior player as well.
Roberts are a better player for exactly those reasons you mentioned.

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05-10-2010, 11:14 AM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Saying that Roberts > Tkachuk is like saying that Joe Pavelski is a better player than Joe Thorton.

At some point, the gap in talent and gap in how much opponents pay attention to you is so large that it completely overwhelms how much you "raise your game." or not.

Judge player by what they are or did, not by how much they exceeded expectations or disappointed.

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05-10-2010, 11:19 AM
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seventieslord
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Roberts are a better player for exactly those reasons you mentioned.
Tkachuk is a better player for exactly the reasons TDMM mentioned.

I like Roberts better. Much, much better. But I can see these players with my head clearer than I can with my heart.

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05-10-2010, 11:22 AM
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Shanahan

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05-10-2010, 11:25 AM
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Saying that Roberts > Tkachuk is like saying that Joe Pavelski is a better player than Joe Thorton.

At some point, the gap in talent and gap in how much opponents pay attention to you is so large that it completely overwhelms how much you "raise your game." or not.

Judge player by what they are or did, not by how much they exceeded expectations or disappointed.
Roberts overcame a serious neck injury and came back like he was never gone. Tkatchuk overcame a weight problem. I'd say its Roberts>Tkatchuk and maybe in raw skill Tkachuk has a bit of an edge on Roberts but he is definitly not 3 times as better than Roberts.

...waits for seventieslord to come with loads of obscure stats to prove me wrong.

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05-10-2010, 11:27 AM
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seventieslord
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Roberts overcame a serious neck injury and came back like he was never gone. Tkatchuk overcame a weight problem. I'd say its Roberts>Tkatchuk and maybe in raw skill Tkachuk has a bit of an edge on Roberts but he is definitly not 3 times as better than Roberts.
No, not three times better, but better. What the player overcame can make for a nice inspirational story (and I love Roberts' story) but it still is not as important as how good they were or what they did.

Quote:
...waits for seventieslord to come with loads of obscure stats to prove me wrong.
There is really no need.

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05-10-2010, 11:31 AM
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jkrx
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No, not three times better, but better. What the player overcame can make for a nice inspirational story (and I love Roberts' story) but it still is not as important as how good they were or what they did.
Everything around the player defines how good he were (ofc related to his career). If you hold out and show up to camp out of shape you influence your team negativly. Which in the end is poor discipline which reflects on your overall performance.

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05-10-2010, 11:34 AM
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Roberts overcame a serious neck injury and came back like he was never gone. Tkatchuk overcame a weight problem. I'd say its Roberts>Tkatchuk and maybe in raw skill Tkachuk has a bit of an edge on Roberts but he is definitly not 3 times as better than Roberts.

...waits for seventieslord to come with loads of obscure stats to prove me wrong.
As hilarious as Keith's weight problem was, do you think he was really the first player to come to training camp overweight?

It was coming out of the lockout, when many players took the year off. Brodeur wasn't sent home or anything, but he was in pretty bad shape coming out of the lockout, and actually took about a month of the regular season to regain his form.

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05-10-2010, 11:40 AM
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jkrx
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As hilarious as Keith's weight problem was, do you think he was really the first player to come to training camp overweight?

It was coming out of the lockout, when many players took the year off. Brodeur wasn't sent home or anything, but he was in pretty bad shape coming out of the lockout, and actually took about a month of the regular season to regain his form.
If you don't keep in shape when your career depends upon it I will put as a BIG minus in your resume.

..and no I dont think he's the first nor the last. Doesnt really change my opinion of Tkatchuk just because other players misbehaved in the same way.

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05-10-2010, 11:44 AM
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If you don't keep in shape when your career depends upon it I will put as a BIG minus in your resume.

..and no I dont think he's the first nor the last. Doesnt really change my opinion of Tkatchuk just because other players misbehaved in the same way.
His career obviously didn't depend on it. He got back into shape and played several more seasons.

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