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Name some ridiculous debates you have had with friends

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05-10-2010, 11:26 PM
  #1
Big Phil
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Name some ridiculous debates you have had with friends

On here we don't always agree with each other. That, I guess you can say, is what makes it more worthwhile to post on here. But I have some friends that have some of the most outlandish opinions that I have never heard on here. And I want to share some with you, they aren't made up I promise. These guys watch hockey too, even though some have rose coloured glasses on and have extreme allegiances and biases towards certain players/teams.

Crosby vs. Richards - Over the last two years I have a friend who stands by the assertion that Richards is the better player despite the flaws in that logic. It started last year when he was watching the Pens/Flyers playoff series and he mentioned how much of a whiner Crosby was. I laughed and said "you'd trade any player on the Flyers for him". He claimed he wouldn't. I thought he was joking but pressed him more. I asked if a hypothetical trade were to come up and the Flyers got Crosby would he take that for Richards? No, he says. Now despite the fact that while Richards is a tough hockey player to hate on, the truth is he has never in his career played at the level of Crosby, not even for a season, not even for a playoff. He might have the edge in defense, but that is the only aspect of the game he would beat him in. Anyways, he took it up a notch by saying he'd rather have Carter and Richards on his team as two centers than Crosby and Malkin. I tried telling him there is a right and wrong answer to that question, but oh well.

Avery vs. Stamkos - This happened this past year. Maybe a month ago. With Stamkos on the verge of leading the NHL in goals a friend of mine so blinded by bias against any OHL player that had the audacity to not play for the Kitchener Rangers (neither did Avery either) stated that if he were a GM he would want Avery on his team over Stamkos. Just for kicks here are the career goals each player has scored:

Avery 84 goals (9 years, 18 goals best year)
Stamkos 74 goals (two seasons, 51 goal season)

So a guy who was a top 5 point getter in the NHL this year is worse than a guy who is at best a 2nd liner, if that?


Hal Gill vs. Gretzky - If someone has the idea that Gretzky was a cream puff and the NHL made sure no one touched him then it's hard to change their mind. This is prior to Gill stepping up in the 2010 playoffs as well. This was in January or so. A friend of mine said that he would take Gill on his team based on the fact that he didn't respect Gretzky. I had to laugh when I asked him how a team full of Hal Gills would outscore a team of Gretzky's. But I'm sure he has an answer

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05-10-2010, 11:32 PM
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seventieslord
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Keep your friends. Chicks dig smart guys, and these guys make you look smarter.

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05-10-2010, 11:39 PM
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Blades of Glory
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Those are worse that some of the debates that I see on this site. That's really saying something.

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05-10-2010, 11:56 PM
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JackSlater
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In 2006

Friend: Stajan and Steen are/will be better than Datsyuk and Zetterberg

This was funny at the time, but it got much funnier for me as the years went on.

2010

Friend: Russia has better forward depth than Canada

Russia debatably has a better top 5 forwards but beyond that... not close.

1997- 2010

Friends: Detroit is only good because they spend so much money

Despite the fact that Detroit's most important players over this period were almost all drafted by Detroit, and that Detroit continued to dominate the NHL after the cap, this one persists even today

2003

Friend: Toronto would have won cups in the preceeding years if they had traded Sundin for Nieuwendyk

This friend hated Sundin to the point that he believed that Sundin intentionally threw games in the playoffs. Even though Sundin was way better than Nieuwendyk in 2001 and 2002 he thought Nieuwendyk would provide some sort of intangible that Toronto was missing to put them over the hump. Even if Nieuwendyk had gotten Toronto to the finals they would have been destroyed by Colorado and Detroit in those years.

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05-11-2010, 01:02 AM
  #5
TheDevilMadeMe
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Parise vs. Crosby is a really common argument among Devils fans. They even chant "Parise's better" sometimes.

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05-11-2010, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
2003

Friend: Toronto would have won cups in the preceeding years if they had traded Sundin for Nieuwendyk

This friend hated Sundin to the point that he believed that Sundin intentionally threw games in the playoffs. Even though Sundin was way better than Nieuwendyk in 2001 and 2002 he thought Nieuwendyk would provide some sort of intangible that Toronto was missing to put them over the hump. Even if Nieuwendyk had gotten Toronto to the finals they would have been destroyed by Colorado and Detroit in those years.
There are plenty of media members who honestly believe that a player with playoff experience possesses some sort of magical intangible that more than makes up for the fact that the player is usually well past his prime and adds nothing to the team on the ice.

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05-11-2010, 05:41 AM
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jkrx
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Various friends who says soccer is more exciting and physical than hockey.

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05-11-2010, 08:10 AM
  #8
pluppe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
On here we don't always agree with each other. That, I guess you can say, is what makes it more worthwhile to post on here. But I have some friends that have some of the most outlandish opinions that I have never heard on here. And I want to share some with you, they aren't made up I promise. These guys watch hockey too, even though some have rose coloured glasses on and have extreme allegiances and biases towards certain players/teams.

Crosby vs. Richards - Over the last two years I have a friend who stands by the assertion that Richards is the better player despite the flaws in that logic. It started last year when he was watching the Pens/Flyers playoff series and he mentioned how much of a whiner Crosby was. I laughed and said "you'd trade any player on the Flyers for him". He claimed he wouldn't. I thought he was joking but pressed him more. I asked if a hypothetical trade were to come up and the Flyers got Crosby would he take that for Richards? No, he says. Now despite the fact that while Richards is a tough hockey player to hate on, the truth is he has never in his career played at the level of Crosby, not even for a season, not even for a playoff. He might have the edge in defense, but that is the only aspect of the game he would beat him in. Anyways, he took it up a notch by saying he'd rather have Carter and Richards on his team as two centers than Crosby and Malkin. I tried telling him there is a right and wrong answer to that question, but oh well.

Avery vs. Stamkos - This happened this past year. Maybe a month ago. With Stamkos on the verge of leading the NHL in goals a friend of mine so blinded by bias against any OHL player that had the audacity to not play for the Kitchener Rangers (neither did Avery either) stated that if he were a GM he would want Avery on his team over Stamkos. Just for kicks here are the career goals each player has scored:

Avery 84 goals (9 years, 18 goals best year)
Stamkos 74 goals (two seasons, 51 goal season)

So a guy who was a top 5 point getter in the NHL this year is worse than a guy who is at best a 2nd liner, if that?


Hal Gill vs. Gretzky - If someone has the idea that Gretzky was a cream puff and the NHL made sure no one touched him then it's hard to change their mind. This is prior to Gill stepping up in the 2010 playoffs as well. This was in January or so. A friend of mine said that he would take Gill on his team based on the fact that he didn't respect Gretzky. I had to laugh when I asked him how a team full of Hal Gills would outscore a team of Gretzky's. But I'm sure he has an answer
In your friends defence none of them seems to have said that their choices would give them higher chances of winning, that would of course be really really stupid, but only said who they would rather have on their team.

Surely they would soon change their minds if such trades were to happen but they could still believe this without being "wrong". Just narrow-minded.

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05-11-2010, 08:41 AM
  #9
raleh
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I know it doesn't sound as bad as some of the ones in the OP, and there are even people on these boards that agree, but I'm getting tired of having to argue that Bobby Orr was better than Nicklas Lidstrom. It's the most frustrating thing in the world.

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05-11-2010, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raleh View Post
I know it doesn't sound as bad as some of the ones in the OP, and there are even people on these boards that agree, but I'm getting tired of having to argue that Bobby Orr was better than Nicklas Lidstrom. It's the most frustrating thing in the world.
I could see that someone might have valid arguments for Lidstrom vs. Orr though... Gill vs. Gretzky however...

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05-11-2010, 12:06 PM
  #11
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raleh View Post
I know it doesn't sound as bad as some of the ones in the OP, and there are even people on these boards that agree, but I'm getting tired of having to argue that Bobby Orr was better than Nicklas Lidstrom. It's the most frustrating thing in the world.
On that note, I'm tired of arguing with people who think that the midget Gretzky who took advantage of the awful 80s would have scoring lines similar to Joe Thornton if he played today.

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05-11-2010, 12:28 PM
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raleh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
I could see that someone might have valid arguments for Lidstrom vs. Orr though... Gill vs. Gretzky however...
That's sort of my point. There are no valid arguments that Lidstrom is better than Orr; none. When it's Gill vs Gretzky you can just chalk it up to the other guy being an idiot and not even get into the argument. When it's Orr vs Lidstrom, you have to actually have a debate that shouldn't exist in the first place.

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05-11-2010, 12:30 PM
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raleh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
On that note, I'm tired of arguing with people who think that the midget Gretzky who took advantage of the awful 80s would have scoring lines similar to Joe Thornton if he played today.
Or the other way around, where Gretzky without his protection would have been similar to Max Bentley had he played in the O6 and not in the awful 80s.

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05-11-2010, 12:30 PM
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jkrx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
On that note, I'm tired of arguing with people who think that the midget Gretzky who took advantage of the awful 80s would have scoring lines similar to Joe Thornton if he played today.
His scoring might have dropped but defintly not to the Thornton numbers. Doubt his numbers would've dropped over 50% for example.

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05-11-2010, 12:31 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkrx View Post
His scoring might have dropped but defintly not to the Thornton numbers.
Oh, absolutely. There's no way he'd break 200 points against butterfly goaltenders and modern defensive schemes.

But he'd still outscore Thornton by a lot. When I see people say that Gretzky's ceiling would be 30 goals and 90 assists, I don't know whether to laugh or be frustrated.

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05-11-2010, 12:34 PM
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kevinsane
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Arguments often state that if you look at the night Gretzky scored 5 to hit 50 in 39, that goaltending was BRUTAL by today's standards. Gretzky was so good, though, that even with everyone else shooting at the same poor goaltending, he was HEAD and SHOULDERS ahead of anyone else.

His numbers today may not have been as gaudy, but he would still run away with the Art Ross.

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05-11-2010, 12:36 PM
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I did the math once and adjusting for how much more scoring there was and the other top scorers in the league Gretzky's peak years would be 150 to 170 in this NHL, so...

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05-11-2010, 12:50 PM
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raleh
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Originally Posted by goalsversusthreshold View Post
Inb4 more "someone said the opinion opposite to mine on a controversial issue." And no, I don't like Bush.
Sweet! Is this the first "in before..." post in the history section??

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05-11-2010, 01:19 PM
  #19
Mike Farkas
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I've had a great number of them, but a couple that you guys especially would appreciate. I was talking to an older fella, I love getting older hockey fans opinions about things that I wasn't old enough to see, get a different take on things and all that...

The first one was, we were talking about the Phaneuf trade to Toronto for a pile of magic beans...and I said, "hmmm, off hand, do you draw any similarities from this trade to the Gilmour trade between the same two teams?"

Response: "Nah, Gilmour was old and washed up at the time of that trade"
I protested. But to no avail.

The other one was:
"I always ask people older than me, 'who was the best player they ever saw, who was the best of all time?' who's your best player of all time?"

Response: Mark Messier, the guy brought it all the time, good offensively, good defensively, the best captain ever, yada yada yada...

My protest: Well, there was only two answers I was really interested in hearing to be honest...Orr or Gretzky.

Response: Orr was overrated I thought. Messier won two Cups without Gretzky. Not saying that Gretzky wasn't good, but Messier was the best player I've ever seen.

My protest included: I don't find Messier to necessarily be a top-20 player of all-time, he was a compiler for a long time. And his leadership is highly overrated, ask Vancouver.

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05-11-2010, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turd Ferguson
He probably wouldn't be the best player in the game. Wasn't athletic enough. He might be a 100-110 point guy but wouldn't have the all around game of a Crosby or Backstrom or Datsyuk.


hes talking about gretz...

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05-11-2010, 04:40 PM
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Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raleh View Post
That's sort of my point. There are no valid arguments that Lidstrom is better than Orr; none. When it's Gill vs Gretzky you can just chalk it up to the other guy being an idiot and not even get into the argument. When it's Orr vs Lidstrom, you have to actually have a debate that shouldn't exist in the first place.
Yeah Lids looks to be retiring now with his son enrolled in school in Sweden in the fall (good for him if he does, great career). But despite being a great all-time defenseman he's barely out of the woods against Robinson all-time (can make a good argument for Robinson) and many of us on here wouldn't put Potvin behind him. But to compare him to Orr has always been insane. We won't see another defenseman like him

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05-11-2010, 04:42 PM
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Big Phil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackSlater View Post
In 2006

Friend: Stajan and Steen are/will be better than Datsyuk and Zetterberg

This was funny at the time, but it got much funnier for me as the years went on.
I fell backwards on my chair on that one

Quote:
2003

Friend: Toronto would have won cups in the preceeding years if they had traded Sundin for Nieuwendyk

This friend hated Sundin to the point that he believed that Sundin intentionally threw games in the playoffs. Even though Sundin was way better than Nieuwendyk in 2001 and 2002 he thought Nieuwendyk would provide some sort of intangible that Toronto was missing to put them over the hump. Even if Nieuwendyk had gotten Toronto to the finals they would have been destroyed by Colorado and Detroit in those years
Does your buddy have a excuse as to why Sundin AND Nieuwendyk didn't get Toronto past the 2nd round in 2004?

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05-11-2010, 05:00 PM
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I kinda luck out now that most of my friends are pretty good hockey people. We have disagreements, but both sides can make a good case.

Probably the most ridiculous stuff has been on here. But working/living in a rink you hear some really asinine things for example, "I would never take Ovechkin on my team! NEVER!" Stuff like that I usually just roll my eyes and walk away.

- I did have a friend who argued that Martin Hanzal was terrible and would never make it to the NHL while he was playing very well and producing in the WHL. But he was basing it on having played with him so I couldn't really say much.

Prucha>Crosby is still my all-time favorite on here.

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05-11-2010, 05:17 PM
  #24
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Yeah Lids looks to be retiring now with his son enrolled in school in Sweden in the fall (good for him if he does, great career). But despite being a great all-time defenseman he's barely out of the woods against Robinson all-time (can make a good argument for Robinson)
I would LOVE to see you try.

We should all be well past this by now.

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05-11-2010, 05:25 PM
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jkrx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Yeah Lids looks to be retiring now with his son enrolled in school in Sweden in the fall (good for him if he does, great career). But despite being a great all-time defenseman he's barely out of the woods against Robinson all-time (can make a good argument for Robinson) and many of us on here wouldn't put Potvin behind him. But to compare him to Orr has always been insane. We won't see another defenseman like him
I would like to hear those arguments too...

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