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Old
05-13-2010, 12:05 AM
  #126
JDM
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Here's a question no one has adressed yet, how many years were the two sides looking for? Did DL want to pay him 3 mill-ish for 2 or 3 years or 5 or 6? Was Cammy looking for a long term contract like 7+ years?

I get what you are saying DIEHARD about DL's judgment call on Cammy being wrong, but this issue plays heavily into that.

It is just funny that with UFAs, years is scrutinized as much as money, and yet in watching and participating in 2 years of this Cammy debate, I've yet to see the issue of term any more than lightly touched upon.

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05-13-2010, 12:54 AM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDM View Post
Here's a question no one has adressed yet, how many years were the two sides looking for? Did DL want to pay him 3 mill-ish for 2 or 3 years or 5 or 6? Was Cammy looking for a long term contract like 7+ years?

I get what you are saying DIEHARD about DL's judgment call on Cammy being wrong, but this issue plays heavily into that.

It is just funny that with UFAs, years is scrutinized as much as money, and yet in watching and participating in 2 years of this Cammy debate, I've yet to see the issue of term any more than lightly touched upon.
From what I know, after arbitration it was a very low, very low offer, but the years were not discussed. My belief is that is was an offer designed to say we're not really interested.

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05-13-2010, 12:59 AM
  #128
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DIEHARD, post #113 is excellent. I've typed up so many replies like that only to not bother posting them because no one will ever change their mind. The fact that the only quotes they can dig up from Cammalleri are from after he was traded to Calgary just shows how flimsy the argument is.


I can accept the odds of him re-signing were low and both DL and Cammalleri are to blame. I just try to get the people to give the guy some credit. When he scores 80 points it's because of Frolov or Iginla. When he lights up the playoffs the Canadiens are only winning because of Halak. Year after year it will be the same people with a new excuse as to why he's succeeding.


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05-13-2010, 12:59 AM
  #129
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OK so we all focus on the arbitration, but isn't there more to it before that? Is it simply the GM makes a qualifying offer, then the player either accepts it or immediatedly chooses arbitration? Isn't there some negotiation between the QO and arbitration?

Also, for clarification, arbitration only awards 2 year contracts, yes?

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05-13-2010, 01:11 AM
  #130
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Wow, after reading all of this, most of it is just amazing and out of touch in my opinion (but what isn't).

One thing has been made perfectly clear tome though, there isn't any possible way that we are getting Kovy. I mean you guys said it yiourselves, DL wouldn't pay MC $5m per year because he thinks that wingers are the least important position.

Kovy is going to pull $8m per easy so DL won't have anything to do with him (lets leave out Smitty's $6m per and the fact that he is a winger).

Maybe it will be PM after all, as long as he will play center although, it will mean that we will always have less than elite level wingers.

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05-13-2010, 01:17 AM
  #131
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Cammy and Kovy don't have much to do with each other.

Again, all timing.

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05-13-2010, 01:28 AM
  #132
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I don't know, they are both wingers and are both as such deemed as least important by DL, why would he make one the highest paid player on our team (if not the league) if he feels this way, regardless of the timing?

I mean, between Smyth and Kovy, both wingers, we would have over $14m in salary tied up, what about DD and JJ etc, what do we do about them? what about the children? Doesn't anyone care about the children?

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05-13-2010, 02:16 AM
  #133
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In the immortal words of George Carlin, "**** the children"

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05-13-2010, 02:22 AM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
So, there was more to JUST BUSINESS than business as DL and others on his behalf have said when discussing this issue.
That is your assumption. Just because he didn't like the guy, doesn't mean that he decided to kick him off the team as that being the primary reason. Either way, this is Dean's team, he can do whatever he wills with it. If he feels that Cammy is not a good match for the team, then so be it. So far his ideal of character first has been working well for us. Just about any man on this team can have a letter slapped on his jersey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
You're correct, because DL was not going to make a real attempt or negotiate in good faith, to sign a guy who he had NO DESIRE TO KEEP ON THE TEAM. He made a judgment call on Cammys ability to contribute that has truned out to be FLAT OUT WRONG.
It wasn't wrong. He predicted Cammy's ability, where he was going to go, and what he was going to earn. It just wasn't the right fit for this team at the right time. That was DL's call. Given the good versus the bad he has given us thus far, I would have extended DL's contract yesterday. The asset wasn't maximized, but is replaceable, and didn't harm us as much as most people seem to think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
Maybe we can look to the 2010 playoffs and you can let me know exactly what the "more to the table" is that Smyth brought, (not that he brought Goal scoring either) because all I saw from him was a classic performance in the role of Caspar.
We needed on this team in the playoffs this year exactly what Cammy brought to Montreal, scoring and leading his team by example. Listening to him on the numerous interviews he has given in the last two weeks, its all about his teammates. He's bought in to the team system, and if you dont think Jacques Martin stresses Team Defense as much or more than TM, then you need a hockey 101 class.
Perhaps, but he didn't show that in LA; therefore he is gone. This is professional sports. We don't have the luxury of waiting around on promises.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
We had one who we could have kept for significantly cheaper than what we will have to pay for one now. One who was homegrown, or were thoase just words said that had no meaning? If you dont try to keep your homegrown talent, whose fault is it that they leave?
Not that much cheaper... Who is to say we could have kept him? There are no facts supporting any argument that we could have. There is no telling what would have became of him had he remained with the Kings. It would be the same as if Myers won the Calder and Teubert moaners argued that by passing on him, we also passed on the Calder. Who knows if he would have turned in that same performance had he been third behind Doughty and Johnson. It would be like moaning in two years after Frolov goes to Detroit and becomes a 40 goal 90 point scorer. Most individuals want him gone now, but hindsight is always 20/20. Things just didn't go his way here and a fit wasn't to be had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
Arguably true in a genral sense, but WRONG in this case. The point is, he didnt care what Cammy wanted (to stay or not) He thought poorly of his play and even less of him as a person. Therefore it had EVERYTHING to do with whether he stayed or not. DL didnt want him here, wasn't going to pay for him after arbitration and that was it. IT WAS HIS WRONG JUDGMENT on CAMMY's ABILITY which is the reason he isnt here. You cant stay if the GM trades you, no matter how much you want to, and DL knew he was jettisoning Cammy even before the 2008 draft.
Most of what you said is opinion, other than the likelihood that DL knew of his plans for Cammy before the draft.

The problem with the Cammy debate is that people take sides. They grow too attached to one side, vilify the other, and once they do, they fail to see the other perspective of things. The best advice in sports is to not grow too attached to just about anything. No matter how you look at it, what conspiracies you believe to uncover, what is done is done, we are going into this offseason looking to rectify our scoring, which for the first time in a long time, is our only real problem for once We have endless options in front of us and it is not the end of the world. Just get a rag and wipe up the spilled milk.

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Old
05-13-2010, 03:21 AM
  #135
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I really don't understand why this is being discussed for the thousandth time again. It is what it is. You can ***** about it all you want. It's tough for anyone who calls themselves a King fan, including Lombardi himself, I'm assuming, to watch Cammy light up the playoffs. But he's gone and he's not coming back. Diehard, I understand you have a massive hard on for the guy, but let it go. He's a Hab and he's never going to be playing for LA again.

We made the playoffs this season and if it wasn't for some green behind the ears, exhausted goaltending and some poor coaching decisions, we'd be talking about the second, possibly third round right now. This team has arrived, with or without Cammalleri.

The only purpose this thread serves is for people to taunt others about how right they were however many months ago. Let it go.

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05-13-2010, 04:12 AM
  #136
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Pre lockout, you could own a player basically for all their Prime years. Those days are over.

NHL gave too much ground on FA. You spend so many years developing a player (especially dmen or goalie) and he explodes with another team.

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05-13-2010, 06:53 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
I'm with Diehard, JT, Albi, Herby and others on this one.

And I'm not here to speak for the aforementioned, but I don't think a lot of you see where we're coming from on this.

If Lombardi had made a reasonable contract offer to Mike, say 5 years at 4.7M, and Mike turned it down, then OK I can live with that. In fact, at the time, I would not have been an advocate of signing Cammalleri to a contract with a CAP hit of 6M.

But you see, Lombardi never made an attempt to lock up Cammy. He only offered him his minimum qualifying offer, which was, I believe, 2.6M.

Was Cammalleri asking for a contract with a CAP hit of 6M? Was he asking for a contract that eventually got up to 6M? Was he starting with 6M as negotiating tactic and willing to meet DL somewhere in the middle? I don't know. But I do know that he his currently making 5M, both this year and next.

Lets pretend for a minute that Cammalleri is only about money. That's it. DL offers him a contract of 23.5M over 5 years, with a 4.7M CAP hit. The contract is structured like this: 4M, 4M, 4.5M, 5M, 6M.

Do you think he would take it?

Well here's the hypothetical contract, verse how his salary has actually panned out:
YearHypothetical Salary Actual Salary
07-084M3.1M
08-094M3.6M
09-104.5M5M
10-115M5M
11-126M6M
12-13UFA7M
13-14UFA7M

With the hypothetical contract, he'd actually be making more money over the course of the next 5 years than the route he has currently taken. By 2012, he could probably get even more than 7M as a UFA. Now of course this is all fantasy, we have no idea if Cammy would have seen things like this had been offered the contract I made up. But Cammy is pretty shrewd and smart. I think there's a very good chance he'd be a King right now had DL made a similar offer to the one I outlined.

BUT WE'LL NEVER KNOW BECAUSE DL NEVER MADE A REASONABLE OFFER. Had DL done so, and Cammy turned it down I could live with that, and this thread/argument wouldn't exist right now.

Also, I'm still trying to find info about Cammy not wanting to be here. I have never seen ANYTHING to substantiate those claims. A link would be nice.
If Dean was so wrong, why did he win arbitration ruling?

You (and I) have no idea what kind of player Cammalleri was in the locker room, off the ice, etc. It's possible that that played into it as well. From the quotes, it sounds like he wasn't dialed in to being a team player, and he wanted to sign with a big Canadian market team.

In which case, I don't blame DL for lowballing him and winning the arb case.

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05-13-2010, 07:01 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by kingOmatic View Post
Even if we did sign Cammy for 5 mill. We would now likely NOT be in the running for Kovy or Marleau... Since 5 million of those dollars that would go to one of those guys would be in Cammy's bank account. And both of these players are better then Cammy. In particular Kovy. You still really have to wait and see how all this pans before you consider the trade a failure or not. Not just whether or not CT pans out, but if Kovy sings with LA this off-season.
I disagree. re-signing Cammalleri would have prevented LA from trading for Smyth.

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05-13-2010, 07:14 AM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
JDM,

Squids one dimension is that he can play LW/C/RW and RD on the PP.

His other one dimensions are that he plays both ends of the ice (finishing this season among the tops on his team up front at +7.

Another of his one dimensions is that he is a solid locker room presence (according to media reports which are always dubious) and seen as a team leader both on and off the ice (I suppose that means other than just the locker room but I am not certain).

I'll stop there but, show me other players who not only poses these capabilities but do so at an elite level and then show me which ones are still considered to be one dimensional.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/stats/by...on_2009&sort=1

You have to be an an exceptional level of defensive suck to give up more goals than you score when you score 12 goals in 14 games. (Yes I understand his 4 PP goals don't count toward +/-, and that +/- is not always the best stat for showing defensive deficiencies, but still.)

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05-13-2010, 09:37 AM
  #140
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Quote:
Wingers making less:

Perry-$5.325/26
Pominville-$5.3/26
St. Louis-$5.25/28
Gagne-$5.25/32
Havlat-$5.0/28
Gionta-$5.0/28
Huselius-$4.75/24
Semin-$4.6/37
Penner-$4.25/25
Williams-$3.5/20
Frolov-$2.9/26


Based on current career averages, Cammy may be where he should be salary wise, but he was no where near that level 3 years ago.

Looking at that, Frolov will make close to $5 million next season.

Your not even looking at the circumstances under which these players signed their contracts. Many of those situations are not comparable, just like Brown and Frolov aren't comparables.

Again, I don't think Cammy should have gotten 6M for his 3rd contract. I think Dean should have offered him something reasonable like 4.5M.

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05-13-2010, 09:46 AM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adevandry View Post
If Dean was so wrong, why did he win arbitration ruling?

You (and I) have no idea what kind of player Cammalleri was in the locker room, off the ice, etc. It's possible that that played into it as well. From the quotes, it sounds like he wasn't dialed in to being a team player, and he wanted to sign with a big Canadian market team.

In which case, I don't blame DL for lowballing him and winning the arb case.
Hmmm. Maybe you're not seeing my point. I don't have a problem with the arbitrator's ruling. I think he got it pretty close to what it should have been.

If DL was offering Cammy a 2 year deal, meaning that Cammy wouldn't be giving up any of his UFA years, I think a fair offer would be somewhere in the mid/high 3's.

If however, they were discussing a longer term deal in which Cammy would be giving up UFA years, the figure would have to be higher, something like mid/high 4s is reasonable under the circumstances IMO.

As for Cammy being a bad/selfish guy. There has never been anything to substantiate those claims. The burden of proof lays on the accuser. Where is it?

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05-13-2010, 10:01 AM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adevandry View Post
http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/stats/by...on_2009&sort=1

You have to be an an exceptional level of defensive suck to give up more goals than you score when you score 12 goals in 14 games. (Yes I understand his 4 PP goals don't count toward +/-, and that +/- is not always the best stat for showing defensive deficiencies, but still.)
I agree.

I'd much rather have a guy who scores 2 goals in 5 games, with an even plus/minus rating. Especially when one of those goals was an empty netter, and the other was scored on a 5 on 3 PP.

Sincerely,
Ilya Kovalchuck

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05-13-2010, 10:52 AM
  #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
I agree.

I'd much rather have a guy who scores 2 goals in 5 games, with an even plus/minus rating. Especially when one of those goals was an empty netter, and the other was scored on a 5 on 3 PP.

Sincerely,
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Playing for the Devils.

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05-13-2010, 11:22 AM
  #144
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OK, fine. I give up.

You are all right.

Cammy sucks.

He's greedy, small and hasnt done anything too help his team or earn his salary.

DL was right, he's always right, and I wrongly villified him.

TM is the best coach in the league

And . . .

Randy Jones is NOT a JACKASS.

HAPPY?

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05-13-2010, 11:24 AM
  #145
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Forget your bipolar meds this morning, DIEHARD?

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05-13-2010, 11:45 AM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
Hmmm. Maybe you're not seeing my point. I don't have a problem with the arbitrator's ruling. I think he got it pretty close to what it should have been.

If DL was offering Cammy a 2 year deal, meaning that Cammy wouldn't be giving up any of his UFA years, I think a fair offer would be somewhere in the mid/high 3's.

If however, they were discussing a longer term deal in which Cammy would be giving up UFA years, the figure would have to be higher, something like mid/high 4s is reasonable under the circumstances IMO.

As for Cammy being a bad/selfish guy. There has never been anything to substantiate those claims. The burden of proof lays on the accuser. Where is it?
Just because no one has publicly said anything about it doesn't mean it wasn't the case. If it can't be proven, at least it can be speculated.

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05-13-2010, 12:51 PM
  #147
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05-13-2010, 01:24 PM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
Your not even looking at the circumstances under which these players signed their contracts. Many of those situations are not comparable, just like Brown and Frolov aren't comparables.

Again, I don't think Cammy should have gotten 6M for his 3rd contract. I think Dean should have offered him something reasonable like 4.5M.
You are not looking at the circumstance either. Cammy had 1 great season in a contract year and wanted $6 million per year. Even $4.5 million is too much for Dean to spend on a 1 year wonder, especially when he is just starting to build the core. That is why they went to arbitration and Cammy lost (he wasn't worth what he wanted). The bridge was burned and Cammy was not going to sign another contract with the Kings. Cammy then proceeded to get injured and only score 19 goals, this destroyed his trade value.

He then scored over 30 goals again in his conract year and got the $6 million that he wanted all along.

Why wasn't this thread started last year when Cammy was eliminated in the first round? Seems like this thread has turned into a big "I Told You So" thread.

I can only imagine the threads if Dean had selected Bogosian instead of Doughty.

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05-13-2010, 02:06 PM
  #149
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05-13-2010, 02:19 PM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adevandry View Post
I disagree. re-signing Cammalleri would have prevented LA from trading for Smyth.
Is that suppose to be a bad thing?

Besides, why can't we have both? One playing on the first line and the other on the second. If anything, it prevents us from signing Kovy as he won't be needed as much.

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