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Old
05-12-2010, 10:10 AM
  #26
palefire
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Originally Posted by Jack Tripper View Post
see the injury excuse thread for similar reply
Misses the point. Certainly every team has to deal with injuries, and to some degree this is a matter of luck (good or bad). But there can also be systemic factors (conditioning, training methods, and travel), and if you want to maximize the chance that you win, you need to work on optimizing these systemic factors. We know that the Canucks know this: it's why they have a sleep specialist on their consulting staff, for instance. The question is, would they be better off being more aggressive?

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05-12-2010, 10:15 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Peter View Post
From my perspectives here were some of the mistakes made this year/this playoff/game 6 and their possible solutions:

1) Salo should not have dressed. I don't buy that a 50% o 60% Salo was better than a 100% Baumgartner (confirmed Rome was not ready to play). If they were hell bent to dress Salo (which obviously they were) then, in my mind, you have to dress 7 d-men. Mistake
What about better than a 100% Nycholat? Cause Baumer was injured too. Also its a big assumption to say anyone is 100% at this time of year.

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2) Gillis, even though he obviously tried, failed to find that #5 d-man we needed for the playoff run - he got us a #6 at best in lberts. Mistake
Agree that it would have been nice to bring in another D, but look at the teams that brought in a #5 type guy and look at what they gave up. Its very likely that we just didn't have the needed pieces (fair to trace this back to the Bernier trade though and maybe blame Gillis for that).

Also, thank god we got Alberts. Can you imagine how bad it would have been playing Oberg or Nycholat?

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3) Vinny was out coached again this playoff. Regular season the man did wonders but once again he was out foxed by the opponent. Mistake
Somewhat disagree here. I dont think the Canucks were really outfoxed, I think they were just outplayed on the ice.

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4) Rypien scratched. Really? Are you telling me that Demitra played better on the 3rd line that Rypien would. He is a banger, he would get in front of net and he is an inspirational leader on the ice. Why was he scratched? Mistake
Rypien has been pretty transparent and we desperately needed goals. On paper I agree with you, but in the games Rypien did play I didn't really see him go to the net much. Unfortunately I think Rypien's play this season has been a huge disappointment. Last year he showed some skill with the puck and some great hitting, this year all we got were some great fights.

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5) Luongo made captain. Silly to put that much pressure and responsibility on a goalie - especially during the playoffs. Goalies are all emotionally fragile creatures of habit and superstition - giving Luongo this "honor" did nothing but help him get off his game for the playoffs. Mistake
Fully agree here. Its a very difficult situation for a goaltender just because its hard to lead by example during games. Especially if you are struggling a little. Forwards can usually just work harder and the rest of the team will see that, but no matter how hard a goalie is working, all the team sees is GAA. (Practice and off ice stuff is a different story and Louie is definitely captain material there).


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Solutions:

1) Fire Vinny. I like our coach, he's funny, extremely well spoken and obviously bright but he is constantly out coached come playoff time - where and when it counts.

2) Gillis must acquire at least 2 top 5 d-men this summer or else it will be his undoing.

3) Politely take captaincy away from Luongo and give to Kesler.

4) Take the time this summer to get rid of some obvious dead weight around here - key non-signing and some astute contract wrangling would do.
My solutions:

1. Keep AV
2. Acquire some D. Probably going to need a top 2 guy and a top 5 guy.
3. Pray for Edler and Ehrhoff to continue to improve
4. Take captaincy away. Do not give it to Kesler. He still has something to prove IMO and hasn't shown the maturity that the Canucks need.
5. Guess it depends on who you call dead weight. I would keep Bernier if thats what you mean. Probably best to let Johnson and Demitra go.
6. In filling in holes, obviously Gillis should be looking at a 3-4 year window, so he should be looking for youngish players. However, I'd like to see one of the new players be along the lines of Madden. Someone a little more experienced that can fill a leadership role but can still be fairly effective on the ice.

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Old
05-12-2010, 10:16 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Bourdon44 View Post
Bernier was one of our better players last year and I stand by that today. Im dissapointed with the little minutes he got being on the 4th line and what not. This guy is the only one hitting making good plays and putting some great effort out there on the ice. C'mon now, Bernier looked like "A man possessed" in the playoffs.
I hope this is sarcasm. Bernier hadn't touched the puck in this series until the midway point of last night's game. The speed and skill was just too much for Steve to deal with.

If the Canucks need cap space to upgrade the defense Bernier should be one of th first places they look to shed salary.

Seems like a good guy, usually gives it his all but just doesn't skate well enough to be an impact player with any consistency against teams with good to great footspeed. Made a few nice contributions in the L.A. series and it's no coincidence he did it against a very poor skating Kings team.

Better luck elsewhere.

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05-12-2010, 10:17 AM
  #29
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IMO the Canucks have done a better job this year than any other year in history for managing their travel, sleep etc.

Conditioning for the players is something I don't know enough about.

But it obviously didn't appear to be an issue for the 1994 team, so it shouldn't be an issue or a valid reason for them being pounded into submisson by a tougher Hawks group.

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Old
05-12-2010, 10:21 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Jack Tripper View Post
it may be my pet peeve to hear the argument that but for certain canuck injuries, they would've won the series...

every team has to deal with injuries in the playoffs...montreal has markov/mara/spacek/gill, boston has seidenberg/sturm/krejci, philadelphia has carter/laperierre/boucher/giroux, chicago has johnsson, ect...

for vancouver, mitchell was a big loss, but last time i checked he was a key contributor last year and the canucks still lost in 6 games to the hawks in a more competitive fashion...salo and edler injuries hurt but the series was effectively over after game 4 by the time they got injured in games 5 and 6

as far as kesler playing with a shoulder injury, i can't remember the last team eliminated from the playoffs that didn't have at least one player hurt...many canuck fans derided whiny kings fans after it was revealed that doughty, among others, was playing hurt in the previous series...additionally, it wouldn't surprise me after the hawks go out to hear of injured players on their team (although they got plenty of time to heal during the vancouver series due to the friendly treatment they received from the canucks)

if the argument is that wait until next year when the canucks get the breaks, it not only becomes a convenient excuse but also neglects the fact that alot of good teams create their own luck...for example, in this series, chicago wore down vancouver with their physical play, put pressure on d-men to take advantage of bad ice in vancouver, and forced luongo to make extremely difficult saves almost every period

in short, while the injury excuse may be arguable if a team goes through an injury epidemic, the canucks were no less healthy than in many cases more healthy than the remaining playoff teams
Every team has to deal with injuries except the teams the Canucks had to face in the playoffs. The Kings and Blackhawks were the 2 healthiest teams that made the playoffs this season.

That doesn't mean had the Canucks had no injuries they would have won the series, it's just unfortunate we always seem to have to deal with more injury troubles than our opponents. Hopefully the defense gets re-built with a more durable top 4 and this no longer becomes an issue. It should definately be on Gillis' radar.

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Old
05-12-2010, 10:37 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Jack Tripper View Post
the sense of inevitability among some fans is pissing me off...
Yeah. It's like Canuck Fandom rolled over and died right alongside the team.

Maybe it's one of those "pets look like their owners" things, where the team takes on a defeatist attitude because fans are, at the end of the day, ok with not winning.

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Old
05-12-2010, 10:42 AM
  #32
Drop the Sopel
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Yeah. It's like Canuck Fandom rolled over and died right alongside the team.

Maybe it's one of those "pets look like their owners" things, where the team takes on a defeatist attitude because fans are, at the end of the day, ok with not winning.
Habs fans can piss all over their team if they don't get it done in game 7 in Pittsburgh.

I just think if you have the ability to separate your emotions from your analysis of the series it doesn't take long to realize the Canucks were not the better team heading in and were going to be hard pressed to unseat an elite team with home ice advantage. Especially so when you're missing your most steady blueliner and penalty killer on a team that wasn't very deep in this regard to begin with.

Throwing your hands up and calling this season a disaster is laughable. It might take you a week to see that, it might take a month. I'm already there.

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Old
05-12-2010, 10:45 AM
  #33
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Complain about depth and injuries until you're red in the face, but fact of the matter is their top guys outplayed our top guys.

Sedins were virtually invisible all series; Kesler reverted back to checking line centre mode, and Burrows followed him.

Only forwards I'd give good grades to are Wellwood and Raymond, with an honorary mention to Grabner who got better as the playoffs went on.

Defensive core needs to be looked at..O'Brien, Bieksa, and Alberts occupy an approximate joint salary of $6.5 million. Which makes no sense.

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05-12-2010, 11:16 AM
  #34
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A team built around a supposed elite goaltender who played like a journeyman and worse for much of the post-season.

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05-12-2010, 11:43 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
I hope this is sarcasm. Bernier hadn't touched the puck in this series until the midway point of last night's game. The speed and skill was just too much for Steve to deal with.

If the Canucks need cap space to upgrade the defense Bernier should be one of th first places they look to shed salary.

Seems like a good guy, usually gives it his all but just doesn't skate well enough to be an impact player with any consistency against teams with good to great footspeed. Made a few nice contributions in the L.A. series and it's no coincidence he did it against a very poor skating Kings team.

Better luck elsewhere.
Pretty much.
with Bernier we're paying 2 million for a 4th line bruiser-type player. Sure he played well in the LA series, but as soon as it switched to a higher-paced style, his little chip and chase never worked.

On a general note, this is the first offseason where Gillis can assess his own moves and make the necessary adjustments... No longer is it Nonis' players that he can pretty easily let go, these guys are mostly guys that Gillis brought in himself. He needs to demonstrate he knows how to let go of these guys and move forward.

Bernier, Johnson, Alberts, and Hordichuk pop into mind.

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05-12-2010, 11:59 AM
  #36
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Great series but a little disappointing with all the blowouts. The only game that was in doubt in the 3rd was game 2. Strange with these two teams.

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05-12-2010, 12:01 PM
  #37
Jack Tripper
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Great series but a little disappointing with all the blowouts. The only game that was in doubt in the 3rd was game 2. Strange with these two teams.
i have to agree that entertainment-value wise this series was a disappointment...what's the last 6 game playoff series without a 1-goal game?

only one team answered the physical bell, neither team showed up on the same night...i expected better hockey

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05-12-2010, 12:43 PM
  #38
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That sucked!

No excuses but lots of reasons we lost.

Bieksa,Salo ,Bernier and Demitra shouldn't have even been on this team...they shouldv'e been used as trade bait ...useless.

Burrows and Kessler were invisible and didn't even contribute any offence.

We didn't have the defence to match the Hawks and Gillis knew this when Mitchell went down ,yet didn't do a damn thing to improve it.

Sedins and Luongo definitely didn't perform up to their potential again...............

And Vigneault was totally outcoached by Queneville..........Rypien should have been in this series just for By****lien alone!!!!!!!!!!!

Time for some major changes next year.

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05-12-2010, 01:04 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Jack Tripper View Post
it is amazing how two different canuck fans can watch the same series and have an exact opposite impression

in the games that the hawks decided to play this series the canucks had absolutely no answer, from the goaltender on out

the more i think about and analyze the series the more i see a regression rather than a progression
And in the games the Canucks decided to play, the Hawks had absolutely no answer. I don't know if I've seen two teams so evenly matched that couldn't show up on the same night.

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05-12-2010, 01:10 PM
  #40
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Great series but a little disappointing with all the blowouts. The only game that was in doubt in the 3rd was game 2. Strange with these two teams.
Say what?

It was a horrible series; there were basically no competitive games...either one team or the other just decided not to show up. It was just terrible...sure you guys won, but I think it's a joke to classify this as anything but a horrendous playoff series.

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05-12-2010, 01:31 PM
  #41
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With the Hawks and Nucks becoming rivals the last few years I tend to bash a lot of the Canucks players just off of pure hatred. But after this series I gotta say I would take Raymond in a heart beat. I was really impressed by that guy.

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05-12-2010, 01:40 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Bobby Lou View Post
Say what?

It was a horrible series; there were basically no competitive games...either one team or the other just decided not to show up. It was just terrible...sure you guys won, but I think it's a joke to classify this as anything but a horrendous playoff series.
Yes it was horrible hockey............just watch both the Habs series to see what playoff hockey is all about,pure entertainment.

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Old
05-12-2010, 01:49 PM
  #43
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Mitchell's injury really exposed the Canucks' weakness on defence. We have three puckmovers with varying degrees of defensive ineptitude (Edler, Ehrhoff, Bieksa), a feisty bottom pairing yeoman with a concrete head (O'Brien), and a brittle and aging veteran with a body made of spun glass (Salo). Alberts was like a redwood with skates on, only slightly less mobile. This is not a cup winning defensive crew, and to be honest it's a little surprising we made it out of the first round. Eventually we were going to run into a team that could stifle our offensive heroics, and it just happened to be a team that was explosive enough to underscore our defensive woes.

Luongo had a bad playoffs, but he was made to look worse by the team in front of him. The Canucks need a complete makeover on defense, and they need it desperately. They need to be more rugged, more durable, and better with the decision making in their own end.

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05-12-2010, 02:13 PM
  #44
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I kind of feel that we were out coached......by our own coach.

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Old
05-12-2010, 04:11 PM
  #45
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I kind of feel that we were out coached......by our own coach.
I agree totally. Putting in Salo was a huge mistake but even bigger was not dressing 7 d-men when he finally decided to let Salo play. And not dressing Rypien just gave Byfulien free reign.

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05-12-2010, 04:15 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Jack Tripper View Post
chicago's best players outplayed vancouver's best players by a wide margin for the second straight year

luongo allows 17 goals in 3 home game losses

sedins, kesler and burrows don't produce

entire team physically manhandled

the sense of inevitability among some fans is pissing me off...at the start of this series and before the canucks collapse in games 3 and 4 there was no sentiment that the hawks were the better team...just because the canucks left it to the last minute in game 6 doesn't mean that they didn't have a chance to win the series and overcome injuries
When your best guys get beaten by their best guys its hard to look at much other than that. I thought all top 9 forwards on their end outplayed ours, except for arguably Hossa vs Raymond. Top line got outplayed, second line Sharp dominated Kesler, and Kopecky outplayed Demitra or whomever else was there. Their third line was a factor all series and outproduced ours, big goals from Bolland and Versteeg. Ladd was a physical factor. On the back end, their top guys in Keith and Seabrook were the best two defenders in the series. Our guys were average. In goal our guy should be the advantage, he wasn't.

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Old
05-12-2010, 07:08 PM
  #47
HawksFan74
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Great series but a little disappointing with all the blowouts. The only game that was in doubt in the 3rd was game 2. Strange with these two teams.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Lou View Post
Say what?

It was a horrible series; there were basically no competitive games...either one team or the other just decided not to show up. It was just terrible...sure you guys won, but I think it's a joke to classify this as anything but a horrendous playoff series.
That's what I said. I was disappointed with the blowouts but as a Hawks' fan it was a great outcome.

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