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Toronto pursuing Roman Cervenka

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Old
05-12-2010, 08:03 PM
  #26
EternallyLeafs
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
in what universe is grabovski tradable?

that contract is one of the top 20 worst in the NHL now. Let him stay healthy and score 30 in a season and maybe he becomes tradable in the future... but its far more likely that he gets encouraged to go to the KHL in an effort to get rid of the cap hit

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05-12-2010, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
in what universe is grabovski tradable?

that contract is one of the top 20 worst in the NHL now. Let him stay healthy and score 30 in a season and maybe he becomes tradable in the future... but its far more likely that he gets encouraged to go to the KHL in an effort to get rid of the cap hit
Check out what $2.9 million buys you.....you just might be surprised. It's definitely at par with his production.

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05-12-2010, 08:33 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post

that contract is one of the top 20 worst in the NHL now.
Hardly. He was 3rd in rookie scoring last season. He only makes 2.9 million. It's not THAT much.

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05-12-2010, 08:49 PM
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Wow, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. What do the Leafs have for elite goaltending prospects? They have 2 NHL goalies that still have to prove they can be consistent #1s and a signed European that may or may not pan out.

The Stars have Lehtonen who appears to have found his game again, and then a few other lesser known goalie prospects that do have NHL upside. Bachman, Beskorowany and some others.

I can tell you one thing, Dallas will be a winner before Toronto will be. They have a solid core. Morrow, Richards, Neal, Eriksson, Ribeiro, Ott, Benn, Lehtinen. That's a pretty solid group of forwards. All of which would be on the top line in Toronto. A tough season out of the way and starting new next year. I can easily see them contending for a playoff spot again next year.

Just no clue at all.
As much as you can say they have a solid core....every player you posted is a forward. Just like the Stars have a very solid 3 lines of forwards, the Leafs have a very solid (and mostly young) blueline. Phaneuf, Beauchemin, Kaberle, Komisarek, Schenn and Gunnarsson. That's an incredible group of defenceman and Phil Kessel, one extremely talented forward with lots of upside.

Not to mention, the Leafs have a lot of promising young forwards....Bozak, Kadri, Grabo, Kulemin, Stalberg, Caputi and Hanson. Obviously you need more forwards than D-men, but in terms of promising young talent on the blueline, Dallas has Niskanen and Larsen.


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05-12-2010, 08:54 PM
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Jesus Christ, Burke. Leave some for the rest of us.

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05-12-2010, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by NineteenSeventyNine View Post
I'm sure he'll find a way.

On topic, I don't see why Cervenka is an upgrade over Grabs (who is apparently worthless).
It doesn't cost us anything going after a good prospect.

By your logic, why go after Rynnas when we have Gustavsson? Or why sign Schrivens(sp) when we have Reimer? Certainly they aren't upgrades over what we currently have.

It just adds to our depth. If he doesn't work out, who does it hurt?

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05-12-2010, 09:38 PM
  #32
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It doesn't cost us anything going after a good prospect.

By your logic, why go after Rynnas when we have Gustavsson? Or why sign Schrivens(sp) when we have Reimer? Certainly they aren't upgrades over what we currently have.

It just adds to our depth. If he doesn't work out, who does it hurt?
Oh, I am all in favor of signing him or any cheap player like this. I guess I'm just saying that I don't really see an upgrade over what we already have. Most of us Leafers are already over Grabs.

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05-12-2010, 09:46 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by NineteenSeventyNine View Post
Oh, I am all in favor of signing him or any cheap player like this. I guess I'm just saying that I don't really see an upgrade over what we already have. Most of us Leafers are already over Grabs.
He's not an upgrade, but all of these guys come with 2-way contracts and do not have to clear waivers.

We have 3 proven players who should play in our top 6 next year (and one of them is Grabo), we need all of the "chances" to fill out the remaining spots that we can get.

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05-12-2010, 09:52 PM
  #34
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Burke finds a lot of wallets. But he never returns them to the owner. That *******.

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05-12-2010, 09:58 PM
  #35
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Ott would be a 1st liner in Toronto?

News to me, I guess he is better than KBK.

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05-12-2010, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alberta_OReilly_Fan View Post
in what universe is grabovski tradable?

that contract is one of the top 20 worst in the NHL now. Let him stay healthy and score 30 in a season and maybe he becomes tradable in the future... but its far more likely that he gets encouraged to go to the KHL in an effort to get rid of the cap hit
48 points last season, on pace for that amount despite injuries this season.

$2.9 million for two seasons.

Wow, what a terrible contract. That could totally handcuff a club!

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05-13-2010, 01:37 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
Ott would be a 1st liner in Toronto?

News to me, I guess he is better than KBK.
Obviously you have the center of the universe blinders on, learn something about hockey outside GTA before you make a statement like that. Obviously Ott would be a first liner in TO, no question. He plays all 3 forward positions (versatile), ranked 12 in faceoff % NHL, 7th in hits NHL, good penalty killer, can play powerplay, and would be second on TO in goals this year, 3rd in points, 2nd in penalty minutes. Not to mention he is an energy/character guy, gets involved, and will be wearing a letter next year. All this while playing on a the 3rd line on a sub par Stars team. I know you forget all about players once they leave the OHL, but since you do I filled you in. Hard to argue with numbers, character and grit.

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Originally Posted by embracedbias View Post
48 points last season, on pace for that amount despite injuries this season.

$2.9 million for two seasons.

Wow, what a terrible contract. That could totally handcuff a club!
It's not that it handcuffs a team, it's just not full value. There is reason the Stars paid Ott that very same 2.9 on his extension, see above. You pay your third line character 20 goal scoring, mitt dropping center that money, not your second line, oft injured 10 goal scoring, bar room brawlin' Belarussian. It is terrible. It was 3 years, 2 more left...enjoy. Sergei Kostitsyn is available too you know??

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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Hardly. He was 3rd in rookie scoring last season. He only makes 2.9 million. It's not THAT much.
see above. He is not moveable.

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Originally Posted by kb View Post
Check out what $2.9 million buys you.....you just might be surprised. It's definitely at par with his production.
Ummm no. You might be surprised, see above. See also Parise, Backes, Byfuglien and Versteeg. Of course there are some bargains out there, but there are also many who are very overpaid. I consider 100% overpaid very overpaid and that's Grabo. He's no more than a 1.45 guy and you know it. Burrows with 30+ just signed a 8 mil/4 year extension. Blinders need to come off folks, it's okay to have a look at TALENT around the league and be objective when comparing against your roster. Sure, love your leafs, but don't love every questionable signing Burkie makes.


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05-13-2010, 01:50 AM
  #38
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LOL

They didn't pry anyone from you. Your team resides in Texas. It was probably an easy decision for Rinnas after he visited Toronto.

Aside from the city I don't see how Dallas is going to be a great team anytime soon. Richards is gone after next season, they have zero goalie prospects, and ownership issues. Next time you try to insult the Leafs you should move out of your glass house first.
You know what, I wasn't trying to be rude with my first post, it's just obvious (if you don't love the Leafs) that they won't be a contender in the next few years. Outside that, you never know. All I was saying is Cervenka is a talent, and I'd like to see him in Dallas, as I would have liked to see Rinnas there. And yes, Rinnas would have been a legit fit with more opportunities than Toronto will likely offer. Rinnas could have likely suited up as backup to fellow countryman Lehtonen, where as he is currently 3rd or 4th on the depth chart in TO. And the Stars do have a few goalie prospects in Krahn, Besko and most notably Bachman and you'd notice if you paid attention to the success of all 3 Stars affiliate teams in there respective post seasons this year. Richards won't be going anywhere and will likely take a small haircut since he's not winning a cup and connsmythe this year or next, and like all other ownership issues they get resolved. They are now saying by August things should be straight and we might be able to try to buy a couple of the pieces that should already be in place. 5 of our young Defenseman that took so much flack this year were in a Conference final just 2 years ago. You might be surprised at what this team can do come next season, especially if they soon get 15 Mil more to play with.

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05-13-2010, 02:25 AM
  #39
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Obviously you have the center of the universe blinders on, learn something about hockey outside GTA before you make a statement like that. Obviously Ott would be a first liner in TO, no question. He plays all 3 forward positions (versatile), ranked 12 in faceoff % NHL, 7th in hits NHL, good penalty killer, can play powerplay, and would be second on TO in goals this year, 3rd in points, 2nd in penalty minutes. Not to mention he is an energy/character guy, gets involved, and will be wearing a letter next year. All this while playing on a the 3rd line on a sub par Stars team. I know you forget all about players once they leave the OHL, but since you do I filled you in. Hard to argue with numbers, character and grit.



It's not that it handcuffs a team, it's just not full value. There is reason the Stars paid Ott that very same 2.9 on his extension, see above. You pay your third line character 20 goal scoring, mitt dropping center that money, not your second line, oft injured 10 goal scoring, bar room brawlin' Belarussian. It is terrible. It was 3 years, 2 more left...enjoy.



see above. He is not moveable.



Ummm no. You might be surprised, see above. See also Parise, Backes, Byfuglien and Versteeg. Of course there are some bargains out there, but there are also many who are very overpaid. I consider 100% overpaid very overpaid and that's Grabo. He's no more than a 1.45 guy and you know it. Burrows with 30+ just signed a 8 mil/4 year extension. Blinders need to come off folks, it's okay to have a look at TALENT around the league and be objective. Sure, love your leafs, but don't love every questionable signing Burkie makes.
Neither is overpaid, but Steve Ott and with that contract, there's a significant risk of him falling the same way as Darcy Tucker. Ott is a GREAT 3rd line player, maybe one of the best in the league. Most teams would love to have him, although at $2.9million there would be very few that actually make offers. As you mentioned, he hits, he fights, plays all 3 forward positions, penalty kills, and can contribute some offence. That being said, he's not a natural offensive player, and not really an offensive catalyst, he's at his best when playing the pest role, and is at risk of destroying his game if he focuses too much on becoming an offensive player. He had a breakout season last year with 46 in 64, but the reality is that he's likely going to settle in as a 40-45 point 3rd liner.

Is he worth $2.9million? Yes, for the simple reason that Dallas can afford him at that price. Is he tradeable? it would be difficult, considering that you can get guys like Bertuzzi & Torres (who don't have the youth upside) for cheaper and a lot of teams don't have $2.9 to spend on a guy whose going to play on their 3rd line.

Grabo on the other hand is nowhere as complete. His game is offence and that's it. but, him at a 48-point pace is his low point. In his rookie season, he put up 20 goals and 28 assists in 78 games. Last year, he sophmore slumped, was horribly inconsistent, and missed 23 games. However, during the times when he was hot, he was able to put up enough to almost match the same level of production (proportionately less goals) in the games he played. This is par for the course though, many rookies who have success in their 1st year go on to slump in their sophmore year. However, with Grabo's talent, and the fact that he is an offensive catalyst, there's no reason why his production shouldn't increase to at least the 55 point mark next year, if not more. If you look at free agency, there really isn't much availble in terms of offensive centres, who are goign to come in at that price range, have proven the ability to produce at a 50-point pace, and still have plenty of upside.

Is he overly valuable? no, because at teh end of the day he's not a huge improvement over what's available in free agency, but to suggest that he has no value or is untradable would be pretty far fetched.

Looking around the league and think about the names you mentioned. Zach Parise with his current contract is basically untouchable in New Jersey, and he's going to be looking at a big raise. David Backes is underpaid, he problably deserves around $3.5, but again with him, good luck getting him out of STL. Byfuglien is a bad contract, he's Steve Ott without the offence and constant pest work. He's great for the playoffs and standing infront of the net, but $3million for a 3rd liner to do that is not an expense that many teams want to be incurring. Versteeg is problably considered a bit better than Grabo because he wasn't hurt, which is reflected in the $2.9 to $3.1 salary difference. Versteeg also has the benefit of playing on a much better team. As for Burrows, when you're along for a ride with the Sedins, your numbers are going to be much more inflated. You put him with similar calibre linemates to what Grabovski has had in Toronto, and expect a maximum of around 57-58 points. $4million for a guy who would put up 57-58 or $2.9 to a guy who would put up around 55? Burrows again is a more complete player, but thats a pretty big salary gap, nevermind the fact that Burrows is almost untouchable because he plays on that line.

Nobody here is suggesting that Grabo is worth some great package, but if you're a team like New Jersey where Zajac is your only centre, the only promising prospect at that position is Josefson whose numbers in the SEL have been less than impressive, going for a guy like Grabovski who has plenty of upside is a damn good idea. If you've gotta sacrifice a prospect like Matt Corrente + a 4th/5th pick when you still have Urbom, Burlon, Eckford, and Gelinas...that's a good deal. Teams that don't have a 2nd line centre often do have $3million in cap space to spend on one. Teams that need a 3rd line forward often don't have $3million in cap space to spend on one, even if he is among the league's best.

That being said, its not something the Leafs are in a position to do unless they get a better centre through other means, as talent level up the middle is currently worse than NJ's.

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05-13-2010, 03:08 AM
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Neither is overpaid, but Steve Ott and with that contract, there's a significant risk of him falling the same way as Darcy Tucker. Ott is a GREAT 3rd line player, maybe one of the best in the league. Most teams would love to have him, although at $2.9million there would be very few that actually make offers. As you mentioned, he hits, he fights, plays all 3 forward positions, penalty kills, and can contribute some offence. That being said, he's not a natural offensive player, and not really an offensive catalyst, he's at his best when playing the pest role, and is at risk of destroying his game if he focuses too much on becoming an offensive player. He had a breakout season last year with 46 in 64, but the reality is that he's likely going to settle in as a 40-45 point 3rd liner.

Is he worth $2.9million? Yes, for the simple reason that Dallas can afford him at that price. Is he tradeable? it would be difficult, considering that you can get guys like Bertuzzi & Torres (who don't have the youth upside) for cheaper and a lot of teams don't have $2.9 to spend on a guy whose going to play on their 3rd line.

Grabo on the other hand is nowhere as complete. His game is offence and that's it. but, him at a 48-point pace is his low point. In his rookie season, he put up 20 goals and 28 assists in 78 games. Last year, he sophmore slumped, was horribly inconsistent, and missed 23 games. However, during the times when he was hot, he was able to put up enough to almost match the same level of production (proportionately less goals) in the games he played. This is par for the course though, many rookies who have success in their 1st year go on to slump in their sophmore year. However, with Grabo's talent, and the fact that he is an offensive catalyst, there's no reason why his production shouldn't increase to at least the 55 point mark next year, if not more. If you look at free agency, there really isn't much availble in terms of offensive centres, who are goign to come in at that price range, have proven the ability to produce at a 50-point pace, and still have plenty of upside.

Is he overly valuable? no, because at teh end of the day he's not a huge improvement over what's available in free agency, but to suggest that he has no value or is untradable would be pretty far fetched.

Looking around the league and think about the names you mentioned. Zach Parise with his current contract is basically untouchable in New Jersey, and he's going to be looking at a big raise. David Backes is underpaid, he problably deserves around $3.5, but again with him, good luck getting him out of STL. Byfuglien is a bad contract, he's Steve Ott without the offence and constant pest work. He's great for the playoffs and standing infront of the net, but $3million for a 3rd liner to do that is not an expense that many teams want to be incurring. Versteeg is problably considered a bit better than Grabo because he wasn't hurt, which is reflected in the $2.9 to $3.1 salary difference. Versteeg also has the benefit of playing on a much better team. As for Burrows, when you're along for a ride with the Sedins, your numbers are going to be much more inflated. You put him with similar calibre linemates to what Grabovski has had in Toronto, and expect a maximum of around 57-58 points. $4million for a guy who would put up 57-58 or $2.9 to a guy who would put up around 55? Burrows again is a more complete player, but thats a pretty big salary gap, nevermind the fact that Burrows is almost untouchable because he plays on that line.

Nobody here is suggesting that Grabo is worth some great package, but if you're a team like New Jersey where Zajac is your only centre, the only promising prospect at that position is Josefson whose numbers in the SEL have been less than impressive, going for a guy like Grabovski who has plenty of upside is a damn good idea. If you've gotta sacrifice a prospect like Matt Corrente + a 4th/5th pick when you still have Urbom, Burlon, Eckford, and Gelinas...that's a good deal. Teams that don't have a 2nd line centre often do have $3million in cap space to spend on one. Teams that need a 3rd line forward often don't have $3million in cap space to spend on one, even if he is among the league's best.

That being said, its not something the Leafs are in a position to do unless they get a better centre through other means, as talent level up the middle is currently worse than NJ's.
First, I have to say, I agree with a lot of the points you make, and that Ott is only effective offensively when he is on that edge. Agreed.

I have to hand it to you Blue and White die hards, you don't wave the towel on anything. But to essentially come out and say that very few GMs would want to trade for a guy like Ott and that Grabovski is likely more moveable, c'mon now. Ott might be at or near the top of his production, but he is showing he can do it back to back year while missing 20 and 10 games respectively. And to say there is some value in Grabovski being in NJ as some sort of catalyst is a bit out of line too. Granted not a center, but Kovalchuk couldn't prove to be the spark they needed, good luck selling this proposal to Lamereillo.

Throw in the long list of credentials Ott adds away from the puck, and there's no contest between him and Grabo. Ott when not hitting the score sheet will scrap or absolutely annoy the best player on the ice...ask Iginla.

Versteeg is a great comparison, because he makes 3.1, yes very close to Grabo, difference being, he is not soft on the forecheck, can take the body and does have a sick pair of hands with a great release. Grabo doesn't come close to sizing up to this skill level of Versteeg nor the size at which the smallish Canadian plays the game. Versteeg is not considered a bit better, he's considered significantly better, and it's not just due to durability. The guy plays with Bolland and Ladd and rarely with the big guys.

And for the record Burrows only makes 2 mil a year on the extension. 4 year - 8 Mil. And as for the is he worth 2.9, yes for the simple reason Dallas can afford him at that price nonsense, remember Dallas simply isn't exactly on the MLSE budget either, they are working 15 mil under the cap, so that in itself should say something about the value of Ott.


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05-13-2010, 03:49 AM
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I think Cervenka would be a nice guy to try on Grabovski's wing... and he will come cheap if he does as he seems to be eligible for ELC? That said I don't really think there's room on the team for this guy. I'd rather give priority to our young guys developing, like Stalberg. I don't see Grabovski on the team next year either... no problem with scoring depth though.. which we'll need next season.

Versteeg and Grabovski are a good comparison. They even make similar money, and were drafted about the same time at a similar position, both in the fifth round.

That said, Versteeg is not significantly better than Grabovski, no way - the guys play similar minutes and achieve similar production. They've both got speed. Versteeg is very effective on the forecheck and is a tenacious little *******, and he's got a pretty good shot. Quite an opportunist as well. Grabovski plays a similar, yet less effective game, but can lead a rush and create for his teammates; creativity Versteeg lacks.

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05-13-2010, 05:49 AM
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I think Cervenka would be a nice guy to try on Grabovski's wing... and he will come cheap if he does as he seems to be eligible for ELC? That said I don't really think there's room on the team for this guy. I'd rather give priority to our young guys developing, like Stalberg. I don't see Grabovski on the team next year either... no problem with scoring depth though.. which we'll need next season.
Versteeg and Grabovski are a good comparison. They even make similar money, and were drafted about the same time at a similar position, both in the fifth round.

That said, Versteeg is not significantly better than Grabovski, no way - the guys play similar minutes and achieve similar production. They've both got speed. Versteeg is very effective on the forecheck and is a tenacious little *******, and he's got a pretty good shot. Quite an opportunist as well. Grabovski plays a similar, yet less effective game, but can lead a rush and create for his teammates; creativity Versteeg lacks.
What? Where do the newest Leaf fan threads have this great commodity of Grabo going now?

And thanks with the Versteeg comparison, you pretty much proved my point that Versteeg has him beat hands down? Versteeg gets less ice, consistently more points and remains a plus player. What I gather is Grabo has creativity and leads rushes. What does that mean really, leads rushes? Often the center does that no? And as for a good center, he wouldn't always lead the rush because that would mean he's actually back in his zone taking care of the 2-way responsibilities of that position. Creativity? So he shoot less is that it? I don't get it, I've seen Versteeg be fairly creative in close with the double toe drag in the regular season (highlight reel) and the 2 great snipes in round 2 against Luongo. Or is creatity passing only? Nice argument. Anyway, would you trade Grabo for Versteeg? I'm guessing a resounding yes from leaf fans. Now go propose the thread and see what hawk fans think. It's not even close.

As for Ott on Grabo and Ott's Salary, the reason we can continue to pay Ott his rightfully earned Salary, is because he can contribute offensively as well as any leaf winger as he's shown the past 2 seasons, but the fact that he's versatile and isn't afraid to drop the mitts means we don't need to pay Colton Orr 1 mil extra for his 2 goals and ECHL level skating ability. The days of the goon are gone, the energy player era is here.

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05-13-2010, 08:49 AM
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What? Where do the newest Leaf fan threads have this great commodity of Grabo going now?

And thanks with the Versteeg comparison, you pretty much proved my point that Versteeg has him beat hands down? Versteeg gets less ice, consistently more points and remains a plus player. What I gather is Grabo has creativity and leads rushes. What does that mean really, leads rushes? Often the center does that no? And as for a good center, he wouldn't always lead the rush because that would mean he's actually back in his zone taking care of the 2-way responsibilities of that position. Creativity? So he shoot less is that it? I don't get it, I've seen Versteeg be fairly creative in close with the double toe drag in the regular season (highlight reel) and the 2 great snipes in round 2 against Luongo. Or is creatity passing only? Nice argument. Anyway, would you trade Grabo for Versteeg? I'm guessing a resounding yes from leaf fans. Now go propose the thread and see what hawk fans think. It's not even close.

As for Ott on Grabo and Ott's Salary, the reason we can continue to pay Ott his rightfully earned Salary, is because he can contribute offensively as well as any leaf winger as he's shown the past 2 seasons, but the fact that he's versatile and isn't afraid to drop the mitts means we don't need to pay Colton Orr 1 mil extra for his 2 goals and ECHL level skating ability. The days of the goon are gone, the energy player era is here.
why so negative bro?

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05-13-2010, 09:59 AM
  #44
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I'm sure he'll find a way.
Yeah, because I'm sure he'll suddenly decide to violate the CBA.

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05-13-2010, 10:05 AM
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First, I have to say, I agree with a lot of the points you make, and that Ott is only effective offensively when he is on that edge. Agreed.

I have to hand it to you Blue and White die hards, you don't wave the towel on anything. But to essentially come out and say that very few GMs would want to trade for a guy like Ott and that Grabovski is likely more moveable, c'mon now. Ott might be at or near the top of his production, but he is showing he can do it back to back year while missing 20 and 10 games respectively. And to say there is some value in Grabovski being in NJ as some sort of catalyst is a bit out of line too. Granted not a center, but Kovalchuk couldn't prove to be the spark they needed, good luck selling this proposal to Lamereillo.

Throw in the long list of credentials Ott adds away from the puck, and there's no contest between him and Grabo. Ott when not hitting the score sheet will scrap or absolutely annoy the best player on the ice...ask Iginla.

Versteeg is a great comparison, because he makes 3.1, yes very close to Grabo, difference being, he is not soft on the forecheck, can take the body and does have a sick pair of hands with a great release. Grabo doesn't come close to sizing up to this skill level of Versteeg nor the size at which the smallish Canadian plays the game. Versteeg is not considered a bit better, he's considered significantly better, and it's not just due to durability. The guy plays with Bolland and Ladd and rarely with the big guys.

And for the record Burrows only makes 2 mil a year on the extension. 4 year - 8 Mil. And as for the is he worth 2.9, yes for the simple reason Dallas can afford him at that price nonsense, remember Dallas simply isn't exactly on the MLSE budget either, they are working 15 mil under the cap, so that in itself should say something about the value of Ott.
It's not a matter of Grabovski being more "valuable", its simply a case where he can play a role that is more valuable on a team. If you're trading for Ott and you're not an idiot, you're trading for him to be on your 3rd line. As we agree on, he's at his best when playing on the edge, and if you put a guy like that on a scoring line, you confuse his role and often it results in him losing the edge. Teams that need a 2nd line centre usually have $3million to spend (as depth up the middle is one of the more important positions). Teams that are looking at improving their 3rd line (and Ott would be an improvement on any team in the league's 3rd line), often don't have $3million to spend. To clarify, there are only a handfull of teams that actually have use for Grabovski, but those teams would be more than happy to pay him $2.9million. Every team in the league would have interest in Steve Ott, that number would drop significantly when you factor in the money he's making. He may bring more to the game than Grabo, but that doesn't change the reality of teams' cap situation.


Versteeg is better on the forecheck than Grabo, but don't underrate Grabo's ability. He's not great at it because he plays light on his feet, but Versteeg often suffers from the same issues. Meanwhile, Versteeg doesn't play on the first line in Chicago, but he does play behind the likes of Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp and is not seen as the catalyst for Chicago. Teams know to key in on Grabovski when he's on the ice and he's still learning to fight through that.

In regards to Burrows, all the more reason why Vancouver would never trade him. MLSE versus Hicks is irrelevant, it's all about the present cap situation of the Stars. With Eriksson at $3.2 and Benn at $800k, it puts them in a position to pay a guy $2.9 on the 3rd line. Off the top of my head I'm not sure there are a lot of teams with that kind of space and willingness to fork out when there are other 3rd liners available who aren't as young and produce a little less offence for cheaper and not requiring trade assets.

For the record, the Leafs wouldn't trade Grabo for Versteeg. That kind of debate (like the Ott versus Grabo) is entirely based on team needs, and the Leafs have a need for a centre more than they do a winger.

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05-13-2010, 11:38 AM
  #46
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It's not a matter of Grabovski being more "valuable", its simply a case where he can play a role that is more valuable on a team. If you're trading for Ott and you're not an idiot, you're trading for him to be on your 3rd line. As we agree on, he's at his best when playing on the edge, and if you put a guy like that on a scoring line, you confuse his role and often it results in him losing the edge. Teams that need a 2nd line centre usually have $3million to spend (as depth up the middle is one of the more important positions). Teams that are looking at improving their 3rd line (and Ott would be an improvement on any team in the league's 3rd line), often don't have $3million to spend. To clarify, there are only a handfull of teams that actually have use for Grabovski, but those teams would be more than happy to pay him $2.9million. Every team in the league would have interest in Steve Ott, that number would drop significantly when you factor in the money he's making. He may bring more to the game than Grabo, but that doesn't change the reality of teams' cap situation.


Versteeg is better on the forecheck than Grabo, but don't underrate Grabo's ability. He's not great at it because he plays light on his feet, but Versteeg often suffers from the same issues. Meanwhile, Versteeg doesn't play on the first line in Chicago, but he does play behind the likes of Toews, Kane, Hossa, Sharp and is not seen as the catalyst for Chicago. Teams know to key in on Grabovski when he's on the ice and he's still learning to fight through that.

In regards to Burrows, all the more reason why Vancouver would never trade him. MLSE versus Hicks is irrelevant, it's all about the present cap situation of the Stars. With Eriksson at $3.2 and Benn at $800k, it puts them in a position to pay a guy $2.9 on the 3rd line. Off the top of my head I'm not sure there are a lot of teams with that kind of space and willingness to fork out when there are other 3rd liners available who aren't as young and produce a little less offence for cheaper and not requiring trade assets.

For the record, the Leafs wouldn't trade Grabo for Versteeg. That kind of debate (like the Ott versus Grabo) is entirely based on team needs, and the Leafs have a need for a centre more than they do a winger.



Okay, so you've taken so many different angles on this already, that you completely missed the point of my original post. No Ott would not be a first liner in most cities, but looking up and down the line up that the leafs put on the ice, I was merely stating that Ott would be a good fit on the their number one line. He understands his role, and he has proven to effective on the firstline in 2008 centered by Ribeiro and the third line last year with Modano. My point being the guy is versatile and allows Dallas to go top line against top line if he's out there. Ott would give Bozak and Kessel lots more room than a guy like Kulemin would give them. And I'm not just looking at numbers to make a case. And though Ott's are better offensively the past couple years, it's everything else he brings away from the puck; second face off guy in case one gets thrown out, hits, energy, the odd tilt, the types of inspired plays that might bring Bozak and Kessel's level of play to a new level.

Take a look at teams with 2 true center, Pit, Dal, Bos, Phi, they pay more than 3 for a second line center. Grabovski is not a 2nd line center to begin with, and would not be on any other team, and therefore would be of little value at the Cap number on any other team.

It wasn't about whether Burrows is tradeable or not, it was just a mere bang for your buck comparison of a guy who put up as many goals as Grabo did points last season.

Ericksson puts up 4.2 on the cap for the next 6 years. MLSE and Hicks is relevant. Sorry, but with a team that knew they were under a strict budget of 45 M for next season decide to extend Ott at 2.9, so again I was merely pointing out his value to franchise since they are notably cash strapped at the time being.

You say you wouldn't trade Grabo for Versteeg, but I bet you your Mats Sundin CCM jersey that if Burke could unload him for what would be the leafs top line winger, I'm sure he would do just that, then find a way to upgrade the number 2 spot with the Kaberle trade and try to work Kadri into the number 3 hole.

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05-13-2010, 11:48 AM
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why so negative bro?
It's Grabo, I'm sorry, but I'm trying to help Leaf faithful see his true value. There is no nice way to sound it out. Yes, it's that ugly. Sorry, turn away if need be, it's not intended for all audiences. Burke has done some really good things in getting the Giguere and Phaneuf deals done. Kessel, I don't want to get into it. The Leafs are ahead of a team like Calgary in a rebuild, by far, but I'm just trying to shed light as to why not every deal Burkie makes is a sure thing, and that's the case with your buddy Mikhail. I say this all with in with a smile and positive feelings of hope for the future of leaf nation.

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05-13-2010, 11:50 AM
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[/B]


Okay, so you've taken so many different angles on this already, that you completely missed the point of my original post. No Ott would not be a first liner in most cities, but looking up and down the line up that the leafs put on the ice, I was merely stating that Ott would be a good fit on the their number one line. He understands his role, and he has proven to effective on the firstline in 2008 centered by Ribeiro and the third line last year with Modano. My point being the guy is versatile and allows Dallas to go top line against top line if he's out there. Ott would give Bozak and Kessel lots more room than a guy like Kulemin would give them. And I'm not just looking at numbers to make a case. And though Ott's are better offensively the past couple years, it's everything else he brings away from the puck; second face off guy in case one gets thrown out, hits, energy, the odd tilt, the types of inspired plays that might bring Bozak and Kessel's level of play to a new level.

Take a look at teams with 2 true center, Pit, Dal, Bos, Phi, they pay more than 3 for a second line center. Grabovski is not a 2nd line center to begin with, and would not be on any other team, and therefore would be of little value at the Cap number on any other team.

It wasn't about whether Burrows is tradeable or not, it was just a mere bang for your buck comparison of a guy who put up as many goals as Grabo did points last season.

Ericksson puts up 4.2 on the cap for the next 6 years. MLSE and Hicks is relevant. Sorry, but with a team that knew they were under a strict budget of 45 M for next season decide to extend Ott at 2.9, so again I was merely pointing out his value to franchise since they are notably cash strapped at the time being.

You say you wouldn't trade Grabo for Versteeg, but I bet you your Mats Sundin CCM jersey that if Burke could unload him for what would be the leafs top line winger, I'm sure he would do just that, then find a way to upgrade the number 2 spot with the Kaberle trade and try to work Kadri into the number 3 hole.
*Playing with the Sedin twins (Art Ross trophy winner). Bad example.

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05-13-2010, 11:57 AM
  #49
Nazem Gretzky
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Burke managed to offload both Blake and Toskala in the same deal. Keep that in mind before you say someone is untradeable.

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05-13-2010, 12:00 PM
  #50
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He's not an upgrade, but all of these guys come with 2-way contracts and do not have to clear waivers.

We have 3 proven players who should play in our top 6 next year (and one of them is Grabo), we need all of the "chances" to fill out the remaining spots that we can get.
2-way contracts really don't matter from a fan's point of view. All they mean is that when the player gets sent down, he has a different salary then when he's on the big team.

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