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Trottier vs Bossy

View Poll Results: who's better?
Michael Dean Bossy 28 46.67%
Bryan John Trottier 32 53.33%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-15-2010, 04:52 AM
  #26
Dark Shadows
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Longer in what respect?
Well, he was top 5 in goal scoring for a dozen years before going to the WHA, when he was still a top player and being a top goal scorer over there.

Along with his 7 NHL goal scoring titles and multiple runner up's, he beat out his nearest competition by huge margin, larger than Brett did.

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Old
05-15-2010, 09:09 AM
  #27
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Well, he was top 5 in goal scoring for a dozen years before going to the WHA, when he was still a top player and being a top goal scorer over there.

Along with his 7 NHL goal scoring titles and multiple runner up's, he beat out his nearest competition by huge margin, larger than Brett did.
Sorry, guess I didn't interpret that one correctly.

Must have forgotten I was in the history section instead of the Bruins section (which will soon be abandoned).

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Old
05-15-2010, 09:57 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Well, he was top 5 in goal scoring for a dozen years before going to the WHA, when he was still a top player and being a top goal scorer over there.

Along with his 7 NHL goal scoring titles and multiple runner up's, he beat out his nearest competition by huge margin, larger than Brett did.
I've always wondered how some people can claim Brett was the best goalscorer of all time when he clearly wasn't even the best in his family. His 3 straight years of leading the league were impressive, as he beat his competition by 17, 69 and 30 %, but Bobby's 4 straight years of leading the league had him win by similar margins of 69, 48, 10 and 18 %, but then he also won another by 52% plus two more by smaller margins. Bobby's top 3 margins of victory are 1st, 7th and 10th all-time, and no one else is in the top 10 more than twice.

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Old
05-15-2010, 10:46 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
I think you mean Bobby Hull, who was a better goal scorer than his son ever was and longer.
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Originally Posted by Regal View Post
I've always wondered how some people can claim Brett was the best goalscorer of all time when he clearly wasn't even the best in his family. His 3 straight years of leading the league were impressive, as he beat his competition by 17, 69 and 30 %, but Bobby's 4 straight years of leading the league had him win by similar margins of 69, 48, 10 and 18 %, but then he also won another by 52% plus two more by smaller margins. Bobby's top 3 margins of victory are 1st, 7th and 10th all-time, and no one else is in the top 10 more than twice.
Not trying to nit-pick, but sniper was the category and to be fair is where both Brett and Mike reside. Being a sniper is not quite the same as being a complete player as I'm quite sure both of you know and Bobby certainly was one of those. Was Bossy or Brett ever considered for play on the PK, were they ever used as a shutdown weapon, Bobby was. He absolutely shut down Howe in the 61 finals and was given kudos in this regard.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/cs-041...,3136497.story

Quote:
Of Hull and Mikita, Damata wrote: What about Stan Mikita, the clutch man of the series? Bobby Hull, the dynamic blond bomber who reached hockey maturity in the big series with powerful drives and unsuspected defensive abilities that smothered Gordie Howe
IMCO Bobby was a complete player and yes very arguably the best goal scorer of all time. Imagine what his totals would have been had he only played above his own blue-line. As it is his 913 reg season goal total is flabbergasting to say the least. I know that 300 of these came in the WHA, but they should never be discounted either


Last edited by therealkoho: 05-15-2010 at 10:57 AM.
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Old
06-10-2010, 12:58 AM
  #30
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Trottier.

Best All Around Player Ever!

Ever!

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Old
06-10-2010, 01:13 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
Bossy and actually it's not even that close when I look at it ...

Bossy outperformed Trottier in 7 (1 tie) regular seasons and 8 playoffs out of 10.

The 8 seasons Trottier played without Bossy were not that spectaclar to cancle out the huge advantage.
This - I doubt back in 1981 or 82 many people would've taken Trottier over Bossy. Bossy was that good. Unfortunately a bad back ended his outstanding career too soon.

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Old
06-10-2010, 01:24 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Fan in the Know View Post
This - I doubt back in 1981 or 82 many people would've taken Trottier over Bossy. Bossy was that good. Unfortunately a bad back ended his outstanding career too soon.
There are a number of polls from NHL players and coaches that cover the years when Bossy and Trottier were both in the league together.

1979 Coaches Poll
- Trottier was named most valuable player in the league and second (to Guy Lafleur) in first player to build a team around. Bossy had no votes in either categories.

1981 Player Poll
- Trottier taken 3rd in player to build a franchise around (behind Gretzky and Lafleur)

I've also discussed Trottier's huge edge in Hart trophy voting earlier.

No disrespect to Bossy - he's one of the greatest players in history. However, Trottier was clearly considered the better player by the coaches, the players and media when they both playing.

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Old
06-10-2010, 01:56 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
There are a number of polls from NHL players and coaches that cover the years when Bossy and Trottier were both in the league together.

1979 Coaches Poll
- Trottier was named most valuable player in the league and second (to Guy Lafleur) in first player to build a team around. Bossy had no votes in either categories.

1981 Player Poll
- Trottier taken 3rd in player to build a franchise around (behind Gretzky and Lafleur)

I've also discussed Trottier's huge edge in Hart trophy voting earlier.

No disrespect to Bossy - he's one of the greatest players in history. However, Trottier was clearly considered the better player by the coaches, the players and media when they both playing.
In fairness, the 1979 coach's poll is a little deceiving. First, Bossy was only in his 2nd season, while Trottier was in his 4th. Also, for what it's worth, Bossy was voted "Best Young Player" - ahead of Trottier - who finished 2nd!!

Also, consider that Clark Gillies was selected 4th in the "Starting a team from scratch, First player chosen" list. No offense to Gillies and his contribution to those Islanders teams, but Bossy was a superior player.

Finally, the "1981 player poll' was actually taken before the 1980-81 season - which was probably 12-18 months after the 1979 coach's poll. I suspect Bossy would've ranked higher in simillar polls if they were conducted after the 81 or 82 seasons.

Having typed that, I concede I may have slept on Trottier a little. It's definitely close.

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Old
06-10-2010, 02:12 AM
  #34
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Trottier was one of the most complete players in hockey history; he did everything at a superlative level. He was the consummate team player. Respect to Bossy, but it's no contest. And to believe otherwise, you have to disregard the virtually unanimous opinion of the two players' contemporaries among players, coaches, managers and hockey writers.

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Old
06-10-2010, 03:15 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Peter9 View Post
Trottier was one of the most complete players in hockey history; he did everything at a superlative level. He was the consummate team player. Respect to Bossy, but it's no contest. And to believe otherwise, you have to disregard the virtually unanimous opinion of the two players' contemporaries among players, coaches, managers and hockey writers.


Ya? Like this:

Quote:
Best Young Player - Mike Bossy (Bryan Trottier, Ryan Walter, Barry Beck)
From 1979 Coach's poll no less.

So much for "disregarding the virtually unanimous opinion" of the coaches.

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Old
06-10-2010, 02:58 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Fan in the Know View Post


Ya? Like this:

Best Young Player - Mike Bossy (Bryan Trottier, Ryan Walter, Barry Beck)

From 1979 Coach's poll no less.

So much for "disregarding the virtually unanimous opinion" of the coaches.
We're considering entire careers here, not who was voted best in a single season poll at the beginning of these players' careers. By the time the Islanders' dynasty was underway, the opinion was indeed virtually unanimously in favor of Trottier.


Last edited by Bear of Bad News: 06-10-2010 at 06:47 PM. Reason: Flaming
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Old
06-10-2010, 05:50 PM
  #37
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Do you have any evidence to support this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter9 View Post
By the time the Islanders' dynasty was underway, the opinion was indeed virtually unanimously in favor of Trottier.


Last edited by Bear of Bad News: 06-10-2010 at 06:47 PM. Reason: Flaming
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Old
06-10-2010, 07:18 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades of Glory View Post
Had Bossy's back not given out, I think this debate becomes intriguing. Right now, it's tough for me to pick him over Trottier.

Trottier was one of the most dynamic forwards in history. He not only could do everything, but unlike so many other players, he actually did everything, and did it at an elite level. Unbelievable vision and passing ability. He is arguably a top five passing center all-time and is definitely in the top ten. Bossy was a very good passer, especially for a goal-scorer, but Trottier was a step above. He was also one of the most physical forwards that I have ever seen. Bryan Trottier was a truck. He hit EVERYTHING, and he hit everything really, really, really hard. His physicality opened up space for him and Bossy in the offensive zone, and his passing ability got Bossy the puck.

All that said, what separates Trottier and Bossy the most, IMO, is Trottier's defensive play. The reason I say "Trottier's defensive play" and not "defensive play" is because I don't want to make it sound like Bossy wasn't good defensively. He was very good. If you played for Al Arbour, you better have been good in our own zone. But Trottier wasn't good or very good, he was amazing. Not only was he a ferocious back-checker, his intelligence allowed him to anticipate opposing players actions with the puck and his physicality helped wipe them out. There really aren't too many forwards in history that have won the Art Ross and finished as the runner up for the Selke within 5 seasons, which is what Trottier did. And in that era, the Selke favored forwards who actually played in a checking/defensive role, thus Doug Jarvis beating him out. Trottier and Denis Potvin absolutely dominated Wayne Gretzky in the 1983 Cup Finals, and played him very well again in 1984, neutralizing him until Mark Messier's goal in Game 4 turned the tide and triggered a dynasty.

Trottier won one Hart Trophy, finished as runner-up twice, including once to Wayne Gretzky, and third once, again in a year when Gretzky won. It's not off-base to say that he would have 3 Harts had he not played directly against Gretzky, prime against prime. Even when Bossy was healthy, Trottier was the guy that got all the Hart votes. There's a reason for that.
Yeah, there was a reason for that and its not because Trottier was better, its because Bossy was not recognise then in his right value. This is very important to consider this. For some strange reasons, Bossy get overlooked because he was a winger instead of a centerman.

And the other reason is this : Trottier start in the NHL 2 years before Bossy and shows how good he was before number 22 arrived (95 points as a rookie). So when Bossy start his NHL career in 1977-78, it was natural for the people at the time to believe that if Bossy produce and score that much goal its because he's playing with Trottier! And that perception cannot change in just 2 or 3 years, it takes time.

To give you an exemple, in the playoffs of 1981, Bossy recorded 35 points with 17 goals in just 18 playoffs games (a new record at the time for the most point). Surprisingly, he didnt won the Conn Smythe trophy, the voters decided to go with veteran Butch Goring Aka Charlie Hustle! Sadly, the reason of that was not because Goring had a better playoff performance, it was because Bossy was perceive as a one-dimensional player wich he was not. Liek I said, he was not recognise in his true value back then.

In that video, you can hear Bossy saying how he was desapointed not to win the Conn Smythe trophy in 1981! And I can understand him!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzP8G...eature=related

When he won the Conn Smythe in 1982, I think, that was at last the debut of the real recognition : he's no more just a sniper but a guy who can be considered the most valuable.

In an interview made after the 4 stanley cup wins, Bob Bourne said that "Bossy was the most important player".

In 1984-85, Bossy registered 117 points playing with Brent Sutter and John Tonnelli. That year Sutter finished the season with 102 points. Sutter's second best season is 63 points. In 1984-85, Trottier, without playing regurlaly with Bossy finished the season with 59 points in 68 games.

With time, the perception has change. In the top 75 players of all time directed by the Hockey News some years ago, Bossy was classified 20th and Trottier was 35th if my memory is good. Some years later, The Hockey News strikes back again with the best players since the seventies. In that ranking, Bossy ranked 11th and Trottier 19th.

And I personnally agree with that : Bossy > Trottier. Both were great, but Bossy was better!

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Old
06-11-2010, 01:17 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Fan in the Know View Post


Ya? Like this:



From 1979 Coach's poll no less.

So much for "disregarding the virtually unanimous opinion" of the coaches.
so what makes more sense? judging them based on what coaches thought in 1979, or using their whole careers now that they have been over for 2 decades?

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06-11-2010, 08:39 PM
  #40
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so what makes more sense? judging them based on what coaches thought in 1979, or using their whole careers now that they have been over for 2 decades?
If you check the flow of this thread and the replies in it you may notice that I only brought up that poll AFTER Hockey Outsider had first posted it, AND in response to Peter9's comment that "to believe otherwise (Trottier better than Bossy), you have to disregard the virtually unanimous opinion of the two players' contemporaries among players, coaches, managers and hockey writers." The fact that coaches polled in 1979 pegged Bossy as the NHL's "Best Young Player", over Trottier, contradicted that opinion and I thought was worth mentioning. Therefore, in the context of THIS thread, my mentioning that poll was not out of place.

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06-11-2010, 09:12 PM
  #41
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One of the two most complete forwards I've seen vs the purest goalscorer I've seen. Tis a tough one, but I'll go with Trots. Trots did everything at least a bit better than Bossy except score goals.

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06-11-2010, 09:55 PM
  #42
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Longer in what respect?
Well, you know.

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Old
06-11-2010, 11:16 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Fan in the Know View Post
If you check the flow of this thread and the replies in it you may notice that I only brought up that poll AFTER Hockey Outsider had first posted it, AND in response to Peter9's comment that "to believe otherwise (Trottier better than Bossy), you have to disregard the virtually unanimous opinion of the two players' contemporaries among players, coaches, managers and hockey writers." The fact that coaches polled in 1979 pegged Bossy as the NHL's "Best Young Player", over Trottier, contradicted that opinion and I thought was worth mentioning. Therefore, in the context of THIS thread, my mentioning that poll was not out of place.
OK, fair enough.

I would take that as, they thought that he had higher potential, due to his obviously higher upside as a goal scorer.

In the end though, Trots crushed Bossy in hart voting so it would be disrespectful of me to select Bossy.

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06-11-2010, 11:47 PM
  #44
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I'd take the Boss

If he had been healthy in '84....I think that the Oilers still win but not in five!

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