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Kovalchuk, how much is too much?

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Old
05-19-2010, 02:52 PM
  #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc620 View Post
CBGB (on LGK) is predicting Burke will throw a lot of money at Kovalchuk (probably to get even over Schenn-the-Younger) while DL will offer a 3 year deal.
Toronto doesn't have the cap space to afford Kovalchuk.

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05-19-2010, 03:36 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by tantrum4 View Post
Well I for one just don't want to get my hopes up again. I was pretty sure last year before July 1st that we would get either Gaborik or Hossa, and we ended up getting neither. Not because of anything DL did or didn't do, but the players just didn't want to come here. That is a major reason deals don't get done that most fans forget about. They all think it's because the GM didn't do his job. I really hope we get Kovy but I'm also not going to get too pumped about it so the dissappointment isn't too harsh if we don't get him...
Gaborik wanted to come here...

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05-19-2010, 04:30 PM
  #203
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I was all over Gaborik, mainly because I thought that Kovalchuk was a pipe dream, but I am partially glad we passed now. Things turned out alright for us this season, and now we have a shot at the best of the best. I am putting everything into picking up Kovalchuk, I know it can be done, and I know we will try.

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05-19-2010, 05:05 PM
  #204
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Would it be worth passing on Kovy for a shot at an even younger Malkin/Crosby who are both ufa's in three seasons?

This is an honest question because it sticks in my head every day. In three seasons If we had JJ DD VV and TH,Muzz or heck, one of the other young ones (once in every lifetime, comes a lot like this..) and JB/JQ in goal we would have a monster D set (my hands actually almost shake when I think about us actually having a home grown top of the league D set, its been a foerver xmas wish.) making us a very solid bet for being a playoff contender.

Syd the kid will have spent quite a long time with the Pens, same with Malkin and maybe a change of scenery will be something they look forward to. Ad in the JJ factor and the fact that we will still have Kopi Brown BSchenn Simmers(fingers x'd) and a few other talented youngin's and we might look like a solid draw for one of the two of them.

Kovy today would be great, but I think we still need to make a few additional changes to our overall line up (including buying a little time for the VV, Schenn, Lokti, Cliffords et al to develop) and then make our serious run at the cup.

I am still fence sitting over who I would want more but I am of the opinion that we need a seriously solid sniper type added to our current line up before I see us as true contenders.

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05-19-2010, 05:10 PM
  #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
Would it be worth passing on Kovy for a shot at an even younger Malkin/Crosby who are both ufa's in three seasons?

This is an honest question because it sticks in my head every day. In three seasons If we had JJ DD VV and TH,Muzz or heck, one of the other young ones (once in every lifetime, comes a lot like this..) and JB/JQ in goal we would have a monster D set (my hands actually almost shake when I think about us actually having a home grown top of the league D set, its been a foerver xmas wish.) making us a very solid bet for being a playoff contender.

Syd the kid will have spent quite a long time with the Pens, same with Malkin and maybe a change of scenery will be something they look forward to. Ad in the JJ factor and the fact that we will still have Kopi Brown BSchenn Simmers(fingers x'd) and a few other talented youngin's and we might look like a solid draw for one of the two of them.

Kovy today would be great, but I think we still need to make a few additional changes to our overall line up (including buying a little time for the VV, Schenn, Lokti, Cliffords et al to develop) and then make our serious run at the cup.

I am still fence sitting over who I would want more but I am of the opinion that we need a seriously solid sniper type added to our current line up before I see us as true contenders.
No. There are no guarantees with those players and they aren't wingers. Crosby will never play for another team. So we are really only talking about Malkin. We don't really need centers, we need wingers and the best goalscorer of our generation next to Ovechkin is available for free now. If Kovy is interested, he gets signed immediately. Why wait to move up a spot in the draft when we have #3 available right here? Someone could trade for Malkin and sign him long term while we are twiddling our thumbs and we will be left with no top 5 star.

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05-19-2010, 05:14 PM
  #206
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Like Telos said Crosby will be or atleast should be a penguin for his career, so the only choice would be Malkin. Problem is DL doesn't have the luxury to wait 3 years to possibly get a chance at signing him. I also like Kovy more than Malkin.

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05-19-2010, 05:52 PM
  #207
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Time will tell.

I agree that SC will likely be a Pen for life but I would never say anything is for certain, likely yes but positively certain, not until it happens. I feel that the Pens are going to come to the realization that in this cap run NHL world it is next to impossible to keep two mega stars on one team and remain cup competitive.

I think that they will deal Malkin the season before he UFA's pumpkins on them so waiting isn't a great thing but signing Kovy before our kids pan out is a gamble too. I am not sold on Kovy being the next best thing to Ovy at all but that doesn't mean that I don't want him on my team.

Ovy is an SC generational talent and Malkin in my opinion is slightly less so. If I were ranking the most valuable sniper/scoring forwards in the game today, Kovy is at #5 for me.

As for not needing another center that raises an interesting question, what would we look like with a Malkin/Kopi/Schenn top three centered team.

Sounds pretty dang scarry to me and allot like the Pens today.


No matter how we slice it though, a trend is developing where teams with young superstars have a very few short seasons to try and win the cup with their nucleus in tact.

If you look at the Pens today from where they were win they won their cup you can see that the team has lost several key components and have been forced to replace them with lesser talented players, the Pens aren't playing for the cup this year and while we can speculate as to why (they ran into a hot goalie etc) the fact is that they aren't there again this year.

Gone are Gill. Scuds and a couple of other components and they have been replaced with lesser talented fill ins.

I suppose next seasons results will be where we will truly begin seeing an actual trend but this might be the start of one.

If not the Pens then look at the Hawks.

Would they have made it this far without Versteeg/Byfuglien/Sharp (though I doubt that they will lose all three of them)? I think that the answer is an obvious no but again, next season we will be able to tell.

If we can get Kovy for the right deal we no doubt should but the evolution of our team will change completely if we do. Hopefully for the better and likely so.

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Old
05-19-2010, 06:26 PM
  #208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
This is an honest question because it sticks in my head every day. In three seasons If we had JJ DD VV and TH,Muzz or heck, one of the other young ones (once in every lifetime, comes a lot like this..) .....
You see, the problem with this scenario is that two of the players you list don't have double initials - clearly a requirement for this group, the "Doomsday Defense - you only score when the world ends!"

Keep working the phones, you are very close. (Sheldon Sourey comes to mind)

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05-19-2010, 06:44 PM
  #209
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has any winger led their team to a cup? ever?

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05-19-2010, 06:58 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by sweatypickle View Post
has any winger led their team to a cup? ever?
There have been plenty of wingers who have been pivotal figures in helping their team advance to the Cup finals and/or win a championship.

Mike Bossy with the Islanders dynasty.
Guy Lafleur with the Canadiens dynasty.
Bobby Hull with the Blackhawks.
Mark Recchi with the Penguins in 1991.
Pavel Bure leading the Canucks to the 1994 Finals.
Jari Kurri setting a playoff goal scoring record with 19 goals in 18 games in 1985.
Craig Simpson and Petr Klima with their clutch performances in the Oilers' 1990 Cup victory.
Claude Lemieux winning Stanley Cup rings with Montreal, New Jersey, and Colorado.
Glenn Anderson was always one of the best playoff performers for the Oilers.
Brett Hull scoring the game winner for the Stars in 1999.

Those are just some examples. It isn't going to be one player that leads a team to a Cup, but some players have the ability to influence and accentuate the abilities and drive of their teammates.

Wingers may not share the same responsibilities as centers or defensemen, but a dangerous sniper can open up room for his four other linemates. Opposing players have to respect and play with attentiveness when such a player is on the ice, which could then lead to more open ice for said sniper's linemates.

Selanne had that effect, as did Brett Hull, Kariya, Bure, Mogilny, Jagr, Robitaille, Kurri, etc.

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05-19-2010, 08:30 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sweatypickle View Post
has any winger led their team to a cup? ever?
The answer is yes. It's been more than 30 years since though.

I'm kinda going to agree with Lemieux.

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05-19-2010, 08:31 PM
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
There have been plenty of wingers who have been pivotal figures in helping their team advance to the Cup finals and/or win a championship.

Mike Bossy with the Islanders dynasty.
Guy Lafleur with the Canadiens dynasty.
Bobby Hull with the Blackhawks.
Mark Recchi with the Penguins in 1991.
Pavel Bure leading the Canucks to the 1994 Finals.
Jari Kurri setting a playoff goal scoring record with 19 goals in 18 games in 1985.
Craig Simpson and Petr Klima with their clutch performances in the Oilers' 1990 Cup victory.
Claude Lemieux winning Stanley Cup rings with Montreal, New Jersey, and Colorado.
Glenn Anderson was always one of the best playoff performers for the Oilers.
Brett Hull scoring the game winner for the Stars in 1999.

Those are just some examples. It isn't going to be one player that leads a team to a Cup, but some players have the ability to influence and accentuate the abilities and drive of their teammates.

Wingers may not share the same responsibilities as centers or defensemen, but a dangerous sniper can open up room for his four other linemates. Opposing players have to respect and play with attentiveness when such a player is on the ice, which could then lead to more open ice for said sniper's linemates.

Selanne had that effect, as did Brett Hull, Kariya, Bure, Mogilny, Jagr, Robitaille, Kurri, etc.

What he was getting at, was has there ever been a team with a winger as it's key and best player to lead a team to a Cup

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05-19-2010, 08:42 PM
  #213
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HNIC Radio is saying that the Kings and Blues are the front runners for Kovalchuk. Manhattan Beach or Missouri for the next 10 years, hmmmmm.

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05-19-2010, 08:47 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire View Post
What he was getting at, was has there ever been a team with a winger as it's key and best player to lead a team to a Cup
See my above post, I cited many examples. You should understand something. Wingers are a part of hockey. You need to outscore the opposition in order to win. The Flyers found that out in 1997, as did the Capitals in 1998. Two teams built on playing solid defense.

I listed a number of wingers who were key players on Cup winning teams. There's a reason why the Wings dealt away Keith Primeau and Paul Coffey to get Brenden Shanahan. Or why Quebec/Colorado moved Sundin to acquire Clark who then turned to Claude Lemieux.

Or when the Penguins acquired Rick Tocchet to help them win their 2nd Cup. Kariya carried the Ducks to the Finals in 2003 and the Ducks offense was powered by Teemu Selanne in 2007 when they won the Cup.

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05-19-2010, 08:53 PM
  #215
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No man this is the question...you know when they are doing the breakdowns before games?...Don't miss Anze Kopitar and the Los Angeles Kings...like that.

I think we all understand that wingers are important in hockey and play and important part. The question is just different from the one you are answering.

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05-19-2010, 09:03 PM
  #216
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Who do you think the Devils were trying to stop in 2003? Paul Kariya or Steve Rucchin? Hell, in 2004, you couldn't find a better player than Martin St. Louis. You saw how Martin Samuelsson picked the Kings apart, just as Cammalleri did to Washington and Pittsburgh in the first two rounds. Has a team without any decent wingers won a Stanley Cup?

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05-19-2010, 09:14 PM
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legionnaire View Post
What he was getting at, was has there ever been a team with a winger as it's key and best player to lead a team to a Cup
You do realize that the best hockey players are generally centers? Gretzky was an amazing player, but even he took it to another level with Kurri on his wing. It took Hull to put Dallas over the top.

Just because you have a top center leading your team doesn't mean you don't need a top sniper.

The Kings have Kopitar, so they don't need another #1 center, he needs a top winger and Kovalchuk just happens to be available for cash.


In case the Kings are reading, if Dean signs Kovalchuk, I will buy his Kings jersey and wear it proudly in Vegas on October 2nd.

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05-19-2010, 09:30 PM
  #218
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And I'll buy a frilly top and a pair of kittens that I will tape to my head so they look like really uncomfortable glasses and then I will wear my Doug Gilmore ***** His Baby-Sitter Hat (to be less conspicuous) all along with my new Kovulchuk Kilt. (I should probably trademark the Kilt idea, filthy marketing scum).

Of course, I will be wearing mine in make believe land (my room) and on October 3rd between the hours of 4 and 6am.

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05-19-2010, 09:46 PM
  #219
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I don't see how Kovalchuk to Anaheim(as some predict) makes any sense. Did those people not see their Defense last year?

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05-20-2010, 12:02 AM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KopitarFAN View Post
I don't see how Kovalchuk to Anaheim(as some predict) makes any sense. Did those people not see their Defense last year?
The Ducks sit at 36 million, Koivu, Teemu and Niedermayer all UFA. Only RFA due a big raise is Ryan. That would leave them with Getzlaf, Perry, Ryan, Lupul and Blake at top 5 so they need a #2 center. If they move Lupul or Blake before July 1st they might be in the Kovalchuk sweepstakes. I think they need to shore up that defense first and foremost though, like you said. A top 3 of Lubo, Wisniewske and Festerling isn't scaring anybody.

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05-20-2010, 01:03 AM
  #221
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You do realize that the best hockey players are generally centers? Gretzky was an amazing player, but even he took it to another level with Kurri on his wing. It took Hull to put Dallas over the top.

Just because you have a top center leading your team doesn't mean you don't need a top sniper.

The Kings have Kopitar, so they don't need another #1 center, he needs a top winger and Kovalchuk just happens to be available for cash.


In case the Kings are reading, if Dean signs Kovalchuk, I will buy his Kings jersey and wear it proudly in Vegas on October 2nd.
Totally agree. Centers make their linemates better. So why wouldn't we want a 1a/b scenario instead of being a one line team? It doesn't work in the playoffs well either. It's a lot easier to shut down one line because you just got to get your top pairing out every time.

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05-20-2010, 01:15 AM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Who do you think the Devils were trying to stop in 2003? Paul Kariya or Steve Rucchin? Hell, in 2004, you couldn't find a better player than Martin St. Louis. You saw how Martin Samuelsson picked the Kings apart, just as Cammalleri did to Washington and Pittsburgh in the first two rounds. Has a team without any decent wingers won a Stanley Cup?
Karyia. And guess what? They were successful. No Cup, right?

Zig, you keep trying to answer the question you want to answer, but it's still not the one that's being asked.

No one questions the importance of good wingers, but 30 years of Stanley Cup history says you're far better off with Gretz/Mess, Lemieux/Francis, Yzerman/Fedorov, Sakic/Forsberg, Lecavalier/Richards, Staal/Brind'Amour, Crosby/Malkin...

Hell, the Goring trade is what helped solidify the Isles as a dynasty. Kings fans should know that fo' sho!


So in the end, and especially in the cap era, it's just not smart to allot that much money to a winger.

The Caps were taken out by the 8th seed because they lack that 1-2 punch. Shut Ovy's line and and it's ove

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05-20-2010, 01:29 AM
  #223
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No one questions the importance of good wingers, but 30 years of Stanley Cup history says you're far better off with Gretz/Mess, Lemieux/Francis, Yzerman/Fedorov, Sakic/Forsberg, Lecavalier/Richards, Staal/Brind'Amour, Crosby/Malkin...
Let's outright accept your premise.

Where do we get this elite center? Whose itching to get rid of a center near anywhere Kopitar's level? I guess you could maybe say Ribiero. Otherwise, what? Hope Plekanec bolts? Cross your fingers the Penguins feel compelled to get rid of Staal (who I am not convinced falls into the category of 1b anyway)? Marleau is really your only option. What if he stays? The options are extremely limited. Kovalchuk needs to be in the discussion and needs to be a target, even if you prefer Marleau, because Marleau is far from a sure thing. Compare the way he and Nabby are playing. Who would you want to keep around?

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05-20-2010, 01:34 AM
  #224
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Let's outright accept your premise.

Where do we get this elite center? Whose itching to get rid of a center near anywhere Kopitar's level? I guess you could maybe say Ribiero. Otherwise, what? Hope Plekanec bolts? Cross your fingers the Penguins feel compelled to get rid of Staal (who I am not convinced falls into the category of 1b anyway)? Marleau is really your only option. What if he stays? The options are extremely limited. Kovalchuk needs to be in the discussion and needs to be a target, even if you prefer Marleau, because Marleau is far from a sure thing. Compare the way he and Nabby are playing. Who would you want to keep around?
You guys must be really convinced about this whole 2012 thing.

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05-20-2010, 03:22 AM
  #225
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Totally agree. Centers make their linemates better. So why wouldn't we want a 1a/b scenario instead of being a one line team? It doesn't work in the playoffs well either. It's a lot easier to shut down one line because you just got to get your top pairing out every time.
What do we have in the pipeline? Centers or LW?

Ah. Ah ha!

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