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Old
05-02-2010, 10:28 PM
  #1
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Question About Esposito vs. Sather

I was talking with some friends the other night and since it's literally right before my time, was there a lot of public outcry similar to Sather to get Esposito canned?

I became hardcore the season after (89-90) and just reading some of the nutty stuff he pulled my goodness, how did the fans not wanna tar and feather him? Trading a 1st round pick for a coach? The constant movement of players every week? Geez.......

It seems like he makes Sather look like Ken Holland, but what do you all have to say about this?

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05-02-2010, 10:44 PM
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I remember when Espo panicked and fired Michel Bergeron with a week to go in the season and the Rangers got Swept in 4 by the Pens. At least I got to be at MSG for Mike Richters 1st game which was game 4. Espo if I remember was still popular and back then almost everyone made the playoffs.

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05-03-2010, 08:27 AM
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My memory is a little fuzzy, but I remember watching something on Espo's career and he was taped saying that his line of thinking was and always will be, if I can trade a player that has less value for a player with more value, he'd do it.

Sounds similar to the thinking of the last 15 years, and every time, you get a mismanaged hodge podge of players with no concept or formation of a team identity where even the players question what exactly their role is on the ice.

I'd say from an outside view, having become a Rangers fan around the 89'ish season, it seems like status quo in Ranger land to me. Unfortunatly.

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05-03-2010, 12:00 PM
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I was in my teens and hated the Ridley/Miller for Carpenter trade, hurt the team for years.

Espo was a once hated, but then loved player by Ranger fans, but his constant maneuvering with players and coaches was too much and when he left a lot of fans seemed happy.

Neil Smith came in, Leetch and Richter were core of the youth movement, and right away Smith traded for Gartner and Nicholls and we were on our way to bigger and better things, but it took what, 6 years? Seemed like nothing back then to a fanbase that had not seen a championship in their lifetime.

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05-04-2010, 08:27 AM
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ESPO made crazy trades. That Ridley/Miller deal was horrible, then getting Macel Dionne was insane. I loved ESPO as a Player and Annoncer. Would love if he came back and did some color for MSG once in a while.

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05-04-2010, 11:20 PM
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Esposito was a horrible GM because he changed his mind every 5 minutes. He traded players the way that Tortorella shuffles lines. You can't possibly win that way.

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05-04-2010, 11:48 PM
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Espo made it to the Hall of fame but his managing was far from the reason

"Management
Esposito served as General Manager and coach of the Rangers for three years in the mid 1980s, during which he earned the nickname "Trader Phil" for the numerous transactions he made. During his tenure as GM, he made more trades than the Vancouver Canucks had made in the entire 1980s.[5] While serving as GM, two of his most famous trades included the trade for the legendary Marcel Dionne and one which he sent a first round pick to the Quebec Nordiques as compensation for signing Michel Bergeron to be the Rangers' coach."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Esposito

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05-09-2010, 11:50 AM
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I'm a HUGE fan of Phil Esposito. I actually did a commercial with him when I was a kid. I love the guy...

Espo was known as "Trader Phil" but to his credit HE DIDN'T make the trade of a 1st round pick AND $100k to Quebec for a coach (Michel Bergeron), it was the Rangers brass that went above his head and did the deal without his agreeing to it.

I thought Espo made some really good moves while GM for the Rangers, especially when he first took the job:

- Brought back Eddie Giacomin to the organization
- Traded Glen Hanlon to Detroit for Kelly Kisio (became Rangers capt)
- Traded Mike Allison (bad knee) to Toronto for Walt Poddubny (35-goal scorer)
- Traded Don Maloney to Hartford for Carey Wilson (grinding winger)
- Fired Michel Bergeron!

I think his best moves were ones that never finalized. Not sure many Rangers fans know this, but do you know that Espo had deals for both Mark Messier and Wayne Gretzky? In their PRIMES?

Espo acquired Mark Messier in 1986 from Edmonton. The deal was done between him and Sather and he was sending Beezer, Kisio, Sandstrom, a 2nd rounder and $5 million for Mess. A-hole Rangers management were a bunch of cheap f'ers and wouldn't endorse the deal, they refused to pay $5 million and saying that they didn't need to put people in the MSG seats. They wanted Espo to work out the deal to exclude money, which couldn't happen since Pocklington needed the money due to his failing businesses. Imagine Mess in his prime?

Espo also acquired Gretz in the summer of 1988. Sather approached Espo at the GM meetings and wanted $15 million and players for Gretzky. They did the deal for the exact same players as were offered two years prior in the Mess trade. Espo pleaded with the Rangers brass but all they f'in cared about was that the MSG seats were already full and didn't care about winning a Stanley Cup. They couldn't justify paying $15 million when the MSG seats were full every night.

Edmonton got their $15 million from Los Angeles, Gretz got dealt to the Kings and the rest is history.

Have I made you guys sick yet?

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05-09-2010, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rangerjoe View Post
I'm a HUGE fan of Phil Esposito. I actually did a commercial with him when I was a kid. I love the guy...

Espo was known as "Trader Phil" but to his credit HE DIDN'T make the trade of a 1st round pick AND $100k to Quebec for a coach (Michel Bergeron), it was the Rangers brass that went above his head and did the deal without his agreeing to it.

I thought Espo made some really good moves while GM for the Rangers, especially when he first took the job:

- Brought back Eddie Giacomin to the organization
- Traded Glen Hanlon to Detroit for Kelly Kisio (became Rangers capt)
- Traded Mike Allison (bad knee) to Toronto for Walt Poddubny (35-goal scorer)
- Traded Don Maloney to Hartford for Carey Wilson (grinding winger)
- Fired Michel Bergeron!

I think his best moves were ones that never finalized. Not sure many Rangers fans know this, but do you know that Espo had deals for both Mark Messier and Wayne Gretzky? In their PRIMES?

Espo acquired Mark Messier in 1986 from Edmonton. The deal was done between him and Sather and he was sending Beezer, Kisio, Sandstrom, a 2nd rounder and $5 million for Mess. A-hole Rangers management were a bunch of cheap f'ers and wouldn't endorse the deal, they refused to pay $5 million and saying that they didn't need to put people in the MSG seats. They wanted Espo to work out the deal to exclude money, which couldn't happen since Pocklington needed the money due to his failing businesses. Imagine Mess in his prime?

Espo also acquired Gretz in the summer of 1988. Sather approached Espo at the GM meetings and wanted $15 million and players for Gretzky. They did the deal for the exact same players as were offered two years prior in the Mess trade. Espo pleaded with the Rangers brass but all they f'in cared about was that the MSG seats were already full and didn't care about winning a Stanley Cup. They couldn't justify paying $15 million when the MSG seats were full every night.

Edmonton got their $15 million from Los Angeles, Gretz got dealt to the Kings and the rest is history.

Have I made you guys sick yet?
Interesting. Who owned the Rangers before Viacom and Gutkowski? I heard they were cheap too. Those "New York" road jerseys sure looked cheap.

As for Espo, he seemed to always be trading causing instability and I honestly couldn't see them winning a Cup with him still at the helm as he wasn't great at the draft.

Things worked out ok, even for those who still get angry at not getting Lindros, they would have given up waaaay too much for him so Larry Bertuzzi has his role in the 94 Cup.

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05-09-2010, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Plains Batman View Post
Interesting. Who owned the Rangers before Viacom and Gutkowski? I heard they were cheap too. Those "New York" road jerseys sure looked cheap.

As for Espo, he seemed to always be trading causing instability and I honestly couldn't see them winning a Cup with him still at the helm as he wasn't great at the draft.

Things worked out ok, even for those who still get angry at not getting Lindros, they would have given up waaaay too much for him so Larry Bertuzzi has his role in the 94 Cup.
Gulf & Western (later renamed Paramount Communications) owned the team prior to selling it to Viacom in '94.

Espo traded alot because he didn't feel he could win with some of the players that were there. He didn't think he could win with Beezer, hence the reason Beezer was part of those two trades with Edmonton. He had alot of "nice" players but nobody who could make a big impact. Espo related what he wanted to do with the Mets acquisition of Gary Carter, a guy who could lead.

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05-09-2010, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rangerjoe View Post
Gulf & Western (later renamed Paramount Communications) owned the team prior to selling it to Viacom in '94.

Espo traded alot because he didn't feel he could win with some of the players that were there. He didn't think he could win with Beezer, hence the reason Beezer was part of those two trades with Edmonton. He had alot of "nice" players but nobody who could make a big impact. Espo related what he wanted to do with the Mets acquisition of Gary Carter, a guy who could lead.
It's funny you mention that. The Rangers really had no stars in the 80s other than maybe Beezer and Larouche. I think a lot of what happened in the late 90s/early 2000s was kind of an extreme shift to be anti-80s Rangers and bring in names.

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05-09-2010, 12:51 PM
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Remember he never asked for this. He has said many times that he was happy doing the color for the Rangers but was approached by management to be the coach/GM. He asked what if he said no, and they said then you wont have any job here. He took it, but I am not sure it was something he wanted to do at the time. He knew the product on the ice, and while some of his trades were terrible, all he was every trying to do was bring in a big name scorer/leader to spark the team. It never worked, as he was always shot down by management when he tried to make big trades (which back then could include money).

Orlando

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05-09-2010, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by rangerjoe View Post
I think his best moves were ones that never finalized. Not sure many Rangers fans know this, but do you know that Espo had deals for both Mark Messier and Wayne Gretzky? In their PRIMES?

Espo acquired Mark Messier in 1986 from Edmonton. The deal was done between him and Sather and he was sending Beezer, Kisio, Sandstrom, a 2nd rounder and $5 million for Mess. A-hole Rangers management were a bunch of cheap f'ers and wouldn't endorse the deal, they refused to pay $5 million and saying that they didn't need to put people in the MSG seats. They wanted Espo to work out the deal to exclude money, which couldn't happen since Pocklington needed the money due to his failing businesses. Imagine Mess in his prime?

Espo also acquired Gretz in the summer of 1988. Sather approached Espo at the GM meetings and wanted $15 million and players for Gretzky. They did the deal for the exact same players as were offered two years prior in the Mess trade. Espo pleaded with the Rangers brass but all they f'in cared about was that the MSG seats were already full and didn't care about winning a Stanley Cup. They couldn't justify paying $15 million when the MSG seats were full every night.

Edmonton got their $15 million from Los Angeles, Gretz got dealt to the Kings and the rest is history.

Have I made you guys sick yet?

I never heard those stories. Where do they come from? I can see the Gretzky story having some truth because the Oilers obviously decided that they needed money more than Gretzky and who has more money to throw around than the Rangers? The cheap part makes no sense precisely because the Rangers were always throwing around money on Dionne, Lafleur and an endless cast of thousands.

I don't know why the Rangers would be jealous of the Kings for getting Gretaky. The Kings have never won anything in team history. They're an afterthought to the Lakers, unlike NY where the Rangers are the backbone of the Garden.

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05-09-2010, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Atoz View Post
I never heard those stories. Where do they come from? I can see the Gretzky story having some truth because the Oilers obviously decided that they needed money more than Gretzky and who has more money to throw around than the Rangers? The cheap part makes no sense precisely because the Rangers were always throwing around money on Dionne, Lafleur and an endless cast of thousands.

I don't know why the Rangers would be jealous of the Kings for getting Gretaky. The Kings have never won anything in team history. They're an afterthought to the Lakers, unlike NY where the Rangers are the backbone of the Garden.
The Gretzky trade was indeed a true story that the Rangers offered that but in the end the Kings offer was taken over the Rangers.

Joe is on the money with G & W being cheap with spending money when the garden was already filled without the star player arguement.

If I remember correctly Gretzky preferred to stay west and play with the Kings so they accomodated him. Since the Rangers were willing to pony up such a package the oilers tried to put together a deal involving Messier for said package.

Have to keep in mind we are going back almost 2 and a half decades so maybe some of us are a bit off in our recollection. 8)

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05-10-2010, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by White Plains Batman View Post
It's funny you mention that. The Rangers really had no stars in the 80s other than maybe Beezer and Larouche. I think a lot of what happened in the late 90s/early 2000s was kind of an extreme shift to be anti-80s Rangers and bring in names.
Yeah, and Beezer wasn't really a "star" in the 80s...and the main reasons we didn't have a super star was due to not having a plyer in the system who became a star, and also because the owners back in the 80s were too damn cheap to trade for a star.

By the late 90's the NHL changed, especially with free agency/salaries. Smith became a fat cat trying to save his job by throwing a boatload of money at top-name free agents, which in essence was throwing it at the wall and hoping it would stick. It didn't work. When he was released and Sather was brought in, he did the same thing. That's what happens when a team playing in the biggest city in the world has missed the playoffs for a couple of seasons in a row. In a way we all have to be thankful that those early Sather moves didn't provide much success, since our homegrown talent might not be here now.

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05-10-2010, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr Atoz View Post
I never heard those stories. Where do they come from? I can see the Gretzky story having some truth because the Oilers obviously decided that they needed money more than Gretzky and who has more money to throw around than the Rangers? The cheap part makes no sense precisely because the Rangers were always throwing around money on Dionne, Lafleur and an endless cast of thousands.
They came from Phil Esposito's mouth. He lived it, having both Messier and Gretzky deals completed with Edmonton, only to get rejected by Rangers ownership.

Gulf & Western ran it like a business and were not throwing around money. Marcel Dionne and Guy Lafleur made very little money. Ownership couldn't rationalize spending $15 million PLUS players to bring in anyone, including the greatest player to ever play, who happened to be in his prime and coming off winning his 4th Stanley Cup in 5 seasons.

Peter Pocklington, owner of Edmonton, had side businesses which were failing back in 1985/86. It became much worse by 1988 and he decided that the money he could receive by trading Gretz would greatly help his situation. It was a business deal, plain & simple.

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05-10-2010, 10:40 AM
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The Gretzky trade was indeed a true story that the Rangers offered that but in the end the Kings offer was taken over the Rangers.

Joe is on the money with G & W being cheap with spending money when the garden was already filled without the star player arguement.

If I remember correctly Gretzky preferred to stay west and play with the Kings so they accomodated him. Since the Rangers were willing to pony up such a package the oilers tried to put together a deal involving Messier for said package.

Have to keep in mind we are going back almost 2 and a half decades so maybe some of us are a bit off in our recollection. 8)
In actuality, Sather approached Esposito about the Gretzky deal before Los Angeles was in the picture. The reason the Kings and Bruce McNall got into the picture was because the Rangers deal didn't get done and because LA had approached Pocklington two years prior about Gretz but Pocklington told them that he wasn't ready to trade the Great One yet.

Remember, Gretz had signed a 5 year contract with Edmonton and was ready to become a free agent after the 1988-89 season, so Pocklington knew the time was right.

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05-10-2010, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rangerjoe View Post
I'm a HUGE fan of Phil Esposito. I actually did a commercial with him when I was a kid. I love the guy...

Espo was known as "Trader Phil" but to his credit HE DIDN'T make the trade of a 1st round pick AND $100k to Quebec for a coach (Michel Bergeron), it was the Rangers brass that went above his head and did the deal without his agreeing to it.

I thought Espo made some really good moves while GM for the Rangers, especially when he first took the job:

- Brought back Eddie Giacomin to the organization
- Traded Glen Hanlon to Detroit for Kelly Kisio (became Rangers capt)
- Traded Mike Allison (bad knee) to Toronto for Walt Poddubny (35-goal scorer)
- Traded Don Maloney to Hartford for Carey Wilson (grinding winger)
- Fired Michel Bergeron!

I think his best moves were ones that never finalized. Not sure many Rangers fans know this, but do you know that Espo had deals for both Mark Messier and Wayne Gretzky? In their PRIMES?

Espo acquired Mark Messier in 1986 from Edmonton. The deal was done between him and Sather and he was sending Beezer, Kisio, Sandstrom, a 2nd rounder and $5 million for Mess. A-hole Rangers management were a bunch of cheap f'ers and wouldn't endorse the deal, they refused to pay $5 million and saying that they didn't need to put people in the MSG seats. They wanted Espo to work out the deal to exclude money, which couldn't happen since Pocklington needed the money due to his failing businesses. Imagine Mess in his prime?

Espo also acquired Gretz in the summer of 1988. Sather approached Espo at the GM meetings and wanted $15 million and players for Gretzky. They did the deal for the exact same players as were offered two years prior in the Mess trade. Espo pleaded with the Rangers brass but all they f'in cared about was that the MSG seats were already full and didn't care about winning a Stanley Cup. They couldn't justify paying $15 million when the MSG seats were full every night.

Edmonton got their $15 million from Los Angeles, Gretz got dealt to the Kings and the rest is history.

Have I made you guys sick yet?
I know Espo made these comments,

But Sather has NEVER confirmed them to be true and now that he's the NYR GM, there's no reason not to confirm them, yet he still hasn't.

I wonder if it's just another case of Espo talking just so he can hear himself. He's done quite a bit of that through out his post playing days.

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05-10-2010, 12:52 PM
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I know Espo made these comments,

But Sather has NEVER confirmed them to be true and now that he's the NYR GM, there's no reason not to confirm them, yet he still hasn't.

I wonder if it's just another case of Espo talking just so he can hear himself. He's done quite a bit of that through out his post playing days.
has sather ever really confirmed let alone comment on anything short of "were still in it" hes a name and a face with no voice u should know this by now

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05-14-2010, 10:10 AM
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Does Sather ever comment on anything anymore?

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05-14-2010, 04:25 PM
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Does Sather ever comment on anything anymore?
Nope, and when I was lamenting this and comparing him to every other GM in the league that I've heard interviewed multiple times, I was shouted down. The guy has no respect for the fans or media whatsoever and the fact that Dolan tolerates this is another slap in the face.

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05-14-2010, 04:53 PM
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Espo is one one of the greatest self-promoting windbags of all time so I take these stories with a mountain of salt.

Google Legends of Hockey and watch the videos of various NHL stars and note that the only one out of the many who displays absoultely no modesty, is Espo. It's pathetic to watch. Great hockey player. I have no other praise for him.

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05-17-2010, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by rangerjoe View Post
I'm a HUGE fan of Phil Esposito. I actually did a commercial with him when I was a kid. I love the guy...

Espo was known as "Trader Phil" but to his credit HE DIDN'T make the trade of a 1st round pick AND $100k to Quebec for a coach (Michel Bergeron), it was the Rangers brass that went above his head and did the deal without his agreeing to it.

I thought Espo made some really good moves while GM for the Rangers, especially when he first took the job:

- Brought back Eddie Giacomin to the organization
- Traded Glen Hanlon to Detroit for Kelly Kisio (became Rangers capt)
- Traded Mike Allison (bad knee) to Toronto for Walt Poddubny (35-goal scorer)
- Traded Don Maloney to Hartford for Carey Wilson (grinding winger)
- Fired Michel Bergeron!

I think his best moves were ones that never finalized. Not sure many Rangers fans know this, but do you know that Espo had deals for both Mark Messier and Wayne Gretzky? In their PRIMES?

Espo acquired Mark Messier in 1986 from Edmonton. The deal was done between him and Sather and he was sending Beezer, Kisio, Sandstrom, a 2nd rounder and $5 million for Mess. A-hole Rangers management were a bunch of cheap f'ers and wouldn't endorse the deal, they refused to pay $5 million and saying that they didn't need to put people in the MSG seats. They wanted Espo to work out the deal to exclude money, which couldn't happen since Pocklington needed the money due to his failing businesses. Imagine Mess in his prime?

Espo also acquired Gretz in the summer of 1988. Sather approached Espo at the GM meetings and wanted $15 million and players for Gretzky. They did the deal for the exact same players as were offered two years prior in the Mess trade. Espo pleaded with the Rangers brass but all they f'in cared about was that the MSG seats were already full and didn't care about winning a Stanley Cup. They couldn't justify paying $15 million when the MSG seats were full every night.

Edmonton got their $15 million from Los Angeles, Gretz got dealt to the Kings and the rest is history.

Have I made you guys sick yet?
Is this true?
Hard to imagine the Rangers having cheap owners.
Stupid?
Yes...but Dolan is not cheap.
Had they been owned by him in the 80s...he might have been beloved.

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05-17-2010, 03:13 AM
  #24
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This team has been plagued with leadership who have no concept whatsoever about how to assemble and manage a hockey franchise. It takes hard work, development, scouting, coaching, drill etc... not a loose checkbook and a trigger happy GM.

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