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Old
05-19-2010, 01:34 PM
  #51
JDM
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
I still don't see how just adding Kovalchuk is the answer to all of the Kings problems, and it severely limits Lombardi's ability to address those other issues.
Maybe for a year it does, but I disagree. The #2 center and 4/5 defenseman can and will be filled in by the prospect pool.

You can go out to FA and get a plug for the defenseman to hold over till Hickey/Muzzin/Martinez/Voynov are ready. Its much harder to get a plug for a #2 center, and if we go spend to the cost of a #2 center, we likely are having to take on a contract that will hold onto the spot longer than it will take Schenn to be ready to fill it. Which is why Stoll/Zus are fine for now until Schenn slips in, or Loktionov.

Adding Kovy doesn't win us a cup next year, it wins us 2 cups between 2011-2012 and 2013-2014.

Point being that the other positions you are worried about are strengths in our prospect pool, whereas there is simply nothing to even come close to plugging the top line LW spot.

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05-19-2010, 02:52 PM
  #52
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I agree with Kings17 Kovalchuk isnt the answer to all the kings needs and he will handicap us in the long run if given more then 7.5 million a year.

I think our biggest need is a defence partner for JJ Someone with some offence to play the 2nd pp and enuff defensive skills to make up for JJs mistakes. I think in time Viatcheslav Voynov or Thomas Hickey will be perfect i think its a season or two away So i suggest that the kings sign one of the following Jordan Leopold Derek Morris, or Adrian Aucoin to a 1-2 year contract for around 2 million
Next i would try to resign Fredrik Modin is was huge on the 3rd line with zues if u can get him to sign cheaper that is somewhere around 2 -2.5 million. IF u can't Matt Cooke would be the person i would go after. Lots of hits with some offensive upside.

next the kovy marleau handius frolov debate. I would try to get kov frist but no more then 7.5 a year for 5 years The reason is also team chemistry as well as saving money for the future. You dont really want someone making more then a million more then the next highest person sorta thinking. I honestly think Dean won't get into a bidding war for him. if we dont get him go after .....

Patrick Maleau He would be the better fit being a former captain of his team and a Dean pick He would be in the right mold for the team concept Dean wants. Again i wouldnt go more then 7 million. I honestly don't see sj letting him go.

Next Dan Hamhuis He would be a good solid upgrade for our defense I will even go so far as to say if he was on the team this year we would have beaten Vancover. If we can get him for under 5 million for 4 years i would sign in a hurry but i dont see him signing that cheap

now for Alexander Frolov He is our longest King and should at the very least be offered a raise to around 4 -4.5 million a year for 4 years. If he goes i expect we will regret it big time.

now people i would look at thats not as popular as the above names if they dont sign

Plekanec, Tomas listed in hockey buzz as a lw but isnt he a center ? i think he could be a solid addition to the kings should the kings miss on the big two $4.5 -5 million over 4 years
Jokinen, Olli only short term around 4 million would be the number 2 center la fans wants and need
Kozlov, Vyacheslav around 4 2years
Whitney, Ray 2 years around 4 million
Koivu, Saku 3 million Again it would be a upgrade at the 2nd line center short term till schen is for sure ready. I think he would be a good cheap piece will playoff experience that help in the dressing room.

Now the reason i am going cheap with my how much max for people We are a team with cap room not many out there with the space we have. People need to think this team is on the raise and a chance to win the cup is realistic. We need people that value a cup win more then a few dollars Ie team players. Now we also have a goalie issues as well. Jonathan Quick was tired and played to much. I hope this will be filled with Jonathan Bernier coming up and letting Erik Ersberg go / traded but if it don't work i want us to have space to find a experienced backup for Jonathan quick

Now for thoses who want to trade stoll I want to say please no even thou the cap room would be nice if schenn /richardson don't work we re screwed. Dont underestimate the winning faceoff stat It is very important. Stoll is one of the better ones in the league. I sugest we try him on the wing with zues should we not sign modin/cooke
If were looking to trade someone for cap room i would try Justin Williams first. I do like his scoring but seem to fagile for me. He only 100 000 cheaper but plays alot less gamesAlso with our propects i think the rw postion could be filled with moller lewis or one of the other propects moving up . Ok i know this was long and proberly most won't read it but for thoses that do please give me ur honest comments about what i said remember its just my opinion whats yours ?

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05-19-2010, 03:30 PM
  #53
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Maybe for a year it does, but I disagree. The #2 center and 4/5 defenseman can and will be filled in by the prospect pool.

You can go out to FA and get a plug for the defenseman to hold over till Hickey/Muzzin/Martinez/Voynov are ready. Its much harder to get a plug for a #2 center, and if we go spend to the cost of a #2 center, we likely are having to take on a contract that will hold onto the spot longer than it will take Schenn to be ready to fill it. Which is why Stoll/Zus are fine for now until Schenn slips in, or Loktionov.

Adding Kovy doesn't win us a cup next year, it wins us 2 cups between 2011-2012 and 2013-2014.

Point being that the other positions you are worried about are strengths in our prospect pool, whereas there is simply nothing to even come close to plugging the top line LW spot.
I don't see the center position as a real strength. We are hoping that Schenn is "the man". That is a pretty big burden to put on the shoulders of a 19 year old kid. After him are we sure Loktionov can even play the center position in the NHL?

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05-19-2010, 04:29 PM
  #54
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Plekanec wants to stay in Montreal, Jokinen is an ahole and a problem in the room.

Kings have Kopitar, Stoll, Handzus, and Richardson as 4 NHL centers with Loktionov, Lewis, Cliche and Schenn all possibly fighting for a spot as well (possibly moving Richie to the wing).

Only way we go after a center is dealing Stoll.

We will probably lose Halpern, Modin and Frolov...2 of 3 of those are wingers...that is a big need to fill but I agree the #4 D man to play with Johnson is the priority in my mind....Voynov/Hickey/Martinez would be a perfect partner for Greene.

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05-19-2010, 04:45 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Johnny Utah View Post
Plekanec wants to stay in Montreal, Jokinen is an ahole and a problem in the room.

Kings have Kopitar, Stoll, Handzus, and Richardson as 4 NHL centers with Loktionov, Lewis, Cliche and Schenn all possibly fighting for a spot as well (possibly moving Richie to the wing).

Only way we go after a center is dealing Stoll.
Stoll will stay and replace handzus in 2011, schenn will take over #2, richardson will probably be 3rd line LW next season. Lewis will be 4th line center.

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05-19-2010, 04:46 PM
  #56
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Lewis looked awful in his brief stay here, I thought Cliche was better than Gauthier, Lewis as a 4th line center.

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05-19-2010, 05:59 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Reign24 View Post
Stoll will stay and replace handzus in 2011, schenn will take over #2, richardson will probably be 3rd line LW next season. Lewis will be 4th line center.
People say this like it is a foregone conclusion. I sure hope it is true.

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05-19-2010, 06:58 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
People say this like it is a foregone conclusion. I sure hope it is true.
This is how we all should be thinking about things. Good Lord my fellow Kings fans, how many saviors have we have that didn't pan out?

How's that go? Speak of the Devil and he'll arrive. Schenn on NHL network in the Memorial Cup.

Game is pretty much meaningless since they will both play again on Friday for the right to go to the championship on Sunday.


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05-19-2010, 07:42 PM
  #59
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I don't see the center position as a real strength. We are hoping that Schenn is "the man". That is a pretty big burden to put on the shoulders of a 19 year old kid. After him are we sure Loktionov can even play the center position in the NHL?
Well its definitely not the strongest part of our pool, which is clearly goaltending and defense, but there is some potential high end talent there, whereas there is nothing really beyond big-bodied tough guys and minature junior phenoms as far as wingers go.

Schenn may not be the future, but he does seem to be a sure bet as an NHLer on some level, but Richardson deserves to be in this discussion as well.

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05-19-2010, 07:49 PM
  #60
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Well its definitely not the strongest part of our pool, which is clearly goaltending and defense, but there is some potential high end talent there, whereas there is nothing really beyond big-bodied tough guys and minature junior phenoms as far as wingers go.

Schenn may not be the future, but he does seem to be a sure bet as an NHLer on some level, but Richardson deserves to be in this discussion as well.
I really don't doubt Schenn will be a player; he's hungry but a lot of people have him stepping in at 18/19 and playing 2nd line center.

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05-19-2010, 07:51 PM
  #61
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I really don't doubt Schenn will be a player; he's hungry but a lot of people have him stepping in at 18/19 and playing 2nd line center.
Yeah that's not me. I'm thinking 2-3 years from now.

I would be fine with acquiring a stopgap #2 center if we can dump Stoll, but my point is that I'm not about to pass up on Kovalchuk because I don't want to wait for Schenn to be ready. By the time Schenn is ready, the rest of the team will be geared up for dominance.

So go get Kovy, know we need a better center, but that it isn't worth losing out on one of the best wingers in the game so that we can go get a #2 center that will really only serve as a bridge to Schenn, or push Schenn out of a job.

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05-19-2010, 07:58 PM
  #62
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It's really not a matter of needing a LW or a Center, but just someone who can score. It just happens that Kovy is a LW. I don't think many will argue that we need ES scoring. Well, is there a better player out there for scoring on the UFA market than Kovy?

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05-19-2010, 10:23 PM
  #63
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The direction this team needs to take is up, not backwards or to the side.

/thread!

Now for a real response. When you talk about building a core of a team you are generally talking of no less than 6, nor more than 7, players.

The following are the generally accepted core positions, those required to be filled to be a legitimate contender under almost any circumstance:

1) Elite goaltender
2) Legitmate 1st line playmaking center
3) Legitimate 2nd line playmaking/scoring center
4) #1 offensive defenseman
5) shutdown defenseman
6) Scoring winger (sniper)
7) top six checking forward

Now, boys and girls, the fun part of the exercise:

Fill in the positions for 2011 (For all you DL fans this means boxes) with current players, prospects, and UFA's (and dont get stuck debating the merits (yet) of whether the players you fill in will or will not make it -- you'll see why in a minute)

1) Elite goaltender ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bernier or Quick
2) 1st line playmaking center ~~~~~~~~Kopitar
3) 2nd line playmaking/scoring center ~~~?????????
4) #1 offensive defenseman ~~~~~~~~ Doughty
5) shutdown defenseman~~~~~~~~~~~Scuderi
6) Scoring winger (sniper) ~~~~~~~~~~????????
7) top six scoring/checking forward ~~~~~Brown

The reason I have left question marks for the second line center and sniper spots is because I dont believe anyone in the organ-eye-zation can, currently, adequately fill those spots. Schenn is unlikely to be ready. Stoll is a lousy playmaker, and Zues is far more suited to a third line role than second. His lack of speed is a problem and he is best offensively blocking the net, which is not where a playmaking 2nd line center is going to be able to set up his linemates from.

We don't have a sniper. Period. If you think we do, Hockey 101 books can be found at USAHockey.com.

Now from the core, you still need to add parts and that generally would start with filling out top six wingers, and your #'s 2 and 3 defenseman.

Whether or not you play JJ with Dougthy or anchoring his own pairing, unless he becomes more versatile in breaking out, you need another puck moving defenseman to anchor the second pairing, and either Scuds plays the stopper role with Doughty or JJ plays with Doughty and concentrates on defensive play even more. In that case Scuds plays the second pairing with the player TBA. There is one UFA or trade acquisition. (or maybe Muzzin makes the jump (unlikely given DL and Hexy's desire to have young players ride the bus.)) Greene fills the 5 spot and an established Monarch kid or DD#44 plays #6.

Moving to forwards, we are not going to develop a sniper anytime soon from within, so there is a second UFA or trade acquisition. Since one (arguably two) of the game's prime snipers are going to be UFA's this off-season, and they dont come around often, there is a premium to be gained by "getting while the getting is good." Kovy is one answer, but Marleau presents a interesting advantage in that he can play center as well, and give the kings the one-two center punch that they currently lack. But, assuming Marleau plays the 2 center spot, we still lack the first line sniper to compliment Kopitar. That, to me, is the more impotant acquisition. That will give us the better shot at producing the offensive firepower we currently lack.

If Frolov goes, and I assume he will because we have heard nothing about any negotiations (paging Hammond) and assuming we sign either one of Kovy/Marleau we arguably have five of our top six wingers and a plug-in, in the form of Richardson/Stoll/Simmonds. But none of those three are, in my mind, top six players on a real contending team, at least not yet in the case of Simmonds. (Note: I would like nothing more than for him to prove me wrong this coming season)

So next year, unless something major and unforseen happens, we are still not through with the rebuild. We need to keep movin' upward, and at minimum that requires a puck moving defenseman and either the sniper, or the sniper/center option (Kovy or Marleau), yet I am not convinced that Marleau bolts from the Bay area.

The Draft and July 1 can not come soon enough.


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Old
05-19-2010, 10:38 PM
  #64
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It's really not a matter of needing a LW or a Center, but just someone who can score. It just happens that Kovy is a LW. I don't think many will argue that we need ES scoring. Well, is there a better player out there for scoring on the UFA market than Kovy?
well put!

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05-20-2010, 12:36 AM
  #65
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It's really not a matter of needing a LW or a Center, but just someone who can score. It just happens that Kovy is a LW. I don't think many will argue that we need ES scoring. Well, is there a better player out there for scoring on the UFA market than Kovy?
This. If Simmonds or Smyth had put up 40 to 50 goals this season next to Kopitar, and contributed in the same department in the playoffs where would we be? I will tell you. In the second round. Having a scoring forward like Kovy creates a ripple effect. Focus on Kopi, Kovy scores. Focus on Kovy, Kopi scores. Most of the league's defenses could not stop us and since our team is deep at the second and third line positions, but missing that first line forward, Murray gets to use that depth to create 3 dangerous lines.

The best argument I have heard against Kovy is our bigger need for a top 4 defenseman.

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05-20-2010, 12:44 AM
  #66
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This. If Simmonds or Smyth had put up 40 to 50 goals this season next to Kopitar, and contributed in the same department in the playoffs where would we be? I will tell you. In the second round. Having a scoring forward like Kovy creates a ripple effect. Focus on Kopi, Kovy scores. Focus on Kovy, Kopi scores. Most of the league's defenses could not stop us and since our team is deep at the second and third line positions, but missing that first line forward, Murray gets to use that depth to create 3 dangerous lines.

The best argument I have heard against Kovy is our bigger need for a top 4 defenseman.
I think you once said something to the effect of that "if your aunt had a pair of balls . . . ." About the same likelihood.

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05-20-2010, 12:46 AM
  #67
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I think you once said something to the effect of that "if your aunt had a pair of balls . . . ." About the same likelihood.
The expression is if your aunt had a pair of balls, she would be your uncle.

But that doesn't apply here. Smyth or Simmonds is Kovy in that hypo. Though I am flattered you remember the goofy things I say at games

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05-20-2010, 01:58 AM
  #68
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This. If Simmonds or Smyth had put up 40 to 50 goals this season next to Kopitar, and contributed in the same department in the playoffs where would we be? I will tell you. In the second round. Having a scoring forward like Kovy creates a ripple effect. Focus on Kopi, Kovy scores. Focus on Kovy, Kopi scores. Most of the league's defenses could not stop us and since our team is deep at the second and third line positions, but missing that first line forward, Murray gets to use that depth to create 3 dangerous lines.

The best argument I have heard against Kovy is our bigger need for a top 4 defenseman.
Not sure I really buy this since neither Thornton or Heatley are putting up great numbers against Chicago, or the playoffs in general. If the premise were correct one of those two would be tearing it up.

I agree that the Kings have a big need for a top 4 puck mover, and since those are tough to develop in short order I suggest we buy one in the UFA market this summer.

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05-20-2010, 02:14 AM
  #69
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Our main priority should be our scorers. Get someone who can easily rack up 40+ goals.

Once we get that in place, lets focus on getting a legitimate defeseman for JJ.

Once we get those pieces, then we can focus on filling in our FA holes.

Just my 2cent

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05-20-2010, 10:30 AM
  #70
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Not sure I really buy this since neither Thornton or Heatley are putting up great numbers against Chicago, or the playoffs in general. If the premise were correct one of those two would be tearing it up.

I agree that the Kings have a big need for a top 4 puck mover, and since those are tough to develop in short order I suggest we buy one in the UFA market this summer.
Your right, but up until last game, Marleau wasnt a huge contributer either. Little Joe Pavelski has carried the team with contributions by committee from various others, although Thornton is contributing in other ways that dont always translate to the score sheet.

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05-20-2010, 10:59 AM
  #71
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Not sure I really buy this since neither Thornton or Heatley are putting up great numbers against Chicago, or the playoffs in general. If the premise were correct one of those two would be tearing it up.

I agree that the Kings have a big need for a top 4 puck mover, and since those are tough to develop in short order I suggest we buy one in the UFA market this summer.
Just last week everyone was *****ing that Cammy was gone and has never been replaced.

No one is saying that Kovalchuk guarantees a cup next year, but without a top line scorer, the chances are much lower.

Last time I checked, only 1 team wins a cup each year. Not every team with top line wingers will win the cup, but it sure looks like it helps you get to the conference finals. When was the last time SJ was in the conference finals, how about Montreal? Pittsburgh probably has the best 2 centers in the league and they didn't make the conference finals, so maybe having 2 #1 centers isn't the way to go either.

The Kings were 9th in defense and 4th in 5-on-5 defense with Jones playing significant minutes. I don't think the Kings will have trouble replacing Jones.

A top line scorer is more important to the Kings right now and there just happens to be one of the best available this summer. Seems like Dean might have planned it this way...

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05-20-2010, 12:34 PM
  #72
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If I was Dean Lombardi, here would be my checklist.
Of course, this is easier said then done.

1. Trade Stoll for Draft picks.
2. Trade Smyth for draft picks or a 5/6 Dman with a low cap hit.
3. Sign Ilya Kovalchuk. 7 yrs $56 million (Years of 10,9,8,8,7,7,7)
4. Re-Sign Alexander Frolov. 5 years-$3.5 million per
5. Re-Sign Brad Richardson 4 years. $1.75 mil per.
6. Re-Sign Scott Parse 5 years. $1.4 million per year.
7. Re-Sign Rich Clune 2 years. $0.75 per.
8. Re-Sign Sean O’Donnell 1 yr 1 mil (7th Dman)

This leaves: (by position, not linemates)
18.300m--- Kovalchuk-Kopitar-Williams
10.675m--- Frolov-Handzus-Brown
03.322m--- Clune-Richardson-Simmonds
05.415m--- Parse-Schenn-Moller
00.740m--- Clifford

06.875m--- Doughty-Scuderi
04.325m--- Johnson-Greene
02.200m--- Drewiske-Harrold-O’D

02.644m--- Quick-Bernier

54.496 million

Then after the season, Lock up Drew for 20 years (7,7,8,8,9,9,8,8,7,7,6,6,5,5,4,3,2,1,1,1) 5.6 cap hit.

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05-20-2010, 01:25 PM
  #73
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Just last week everyone was *****ing that Cammy was gone and has never been replaced.

No one is saying that Kovalchuk guarantees a cup next year, but without a top line scorer, the chances are much lower.

Last time I checked, only 1 team wins a cup each year. Not every team with top line wingers will win the cup, but it sure looks like it helps you get to the conference finals. When was the last time SJ was in the conference finals, how about Montreal? Pittsburgh probably has the best 2 centers in the league and they didn't make the conference finals, so maybe having 2 #1 centers isn't the way to go either.

The Kings were 9th in defense and 4th in 5-on-5 defense with Jones playing significant minutes. I don't think the Kings will have trouble replacing Jones.

A top line scorer is more important to the Kings right now and there just happens to be one of the best available this summer. Seems like Dean might have planned it this way...
Everyone? Hardly.

Yep, only one team wins the cup each year and when your best players play the most important positions you have a much better chance.

You cite Jones as some type of example of a player that is easily replaced. I don't want another defenseman of Jones' calibre playing along side Johnson again. You also don't seem to recognize the impact that a puck moving defenseman can make on a 5-on-5 offense that is having trouble scoring.

Top lines get shutdown all the time in the playoffs. You better have more than one line that can score. As I have said, I am not against Kovalchuk signing with the Kings, but I am against having him eat up so much in cap space that it affects the acquisition of more important pieces to the puzzle. If he wants to come in at Ryan Smyth's salary and we wait a couple of seasons until Smyth is done to get those missing pieces it might be ok.

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05-20-2010, 02:08 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
You cite Jones as some type of example of a player that is easily replaced. I don't want another defenseman of Jones' calibre playing along side Johnson again. You also don't seem to recognize the impact that a puck moving defenseman can make on a 5-on-5 offense that is having trouble scoring.
BINGO! Jones' only offensive talent was to jump into the play (and then proceed to get caught down low on changes of possession) Doesnt help that he's slow and plodding coming back, forwards or backwards.

A real puck moving defenseman is not just a skater. One of the most important things a defenseman can do to aid offense is to make that first pass out of the zone to a forward that is moving up either through the lanes or slashing across them. Say what you will about former quack defenseman Pronger, but he is excellent at making that quick first pass that allows wingers to move through center ice and into the zone WITH SPEED.

Ragging the puck back to re-set the defense (think JJ) or back and forth cross passes between d-men is necessary sometimes to move the puck through a congested center ice (like against teams that play the trap) but the best way to beat the trap is to spread it out and hit that first quick outlet before all four trappers have settled into their alloted positions. A puck moving defenseman gets his legs moving with the puck and hits that pass quickly, sometimes finding his own speed opens that passing lane up. Its the difference between JJ and Doughty. Doughty uses his feet to open things up, whereas more often than not JJ uses his feet to attempt to skate it up himself. He's not nearly as adept at the first pass as is Doughty. Another puck moving defenseman could make it that much easier to get into the offensive zone.

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05-20-2010, 02:33 PM
  #75
etherialone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Everyone? Hardly.

Yep, only one team wins the cup each year and when your best players play the most important positions you have a much better chance.

You cite Jones as some type of example of a player that is easily replaced. I don't want another defenseman of Jones' calibre playing along side Johnson again. You also don't seem to recognize the impact that a puck moving defenseman can make on a 5-on-5 offense that is having trouble scoring.

Top lines get shutdown all the time in the playoffs. You better have more than one line that can score. As I have said, I am not against Kovalchuk signing with the Kings, but I am against having him eat up so much in cap space that it affects the acquisition of more important pieces to the puzzle. If he wants to come in at Ryan Smyth's salary and we wait a couple of seasons until Smyth is done to get those missing pieces it might be ok.

Hey, I finally get to do a ^^^^^This!

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