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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Hockey Canada defends Crosby; IIHF deletes controversial article

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Old
05-20-2010, 10:08 AM
  #351
icing
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
Four Olympic Games is not enough of a sample size to make these conclusions. How do you explain that Canada has been the most successful country at the WHC's over the last eight years? It's played on big ice in Europe.

No, the NHL is not world hockey but to place the WHC's above the World Cup in terms of being a "best-on-best" is ridiculous.

It's not about placing the WHC above the World Cup in terms of being a "best-on-best". It's just that the WHC matters more, except for two countries that wants the world playing for their own "cup". Winning the World Cup is more a "feather in the hat". Winning the WHC is more about national pride.

Lest just say, hypothetical, that we had a WHC-tournament with all the best - like the Olympics. I mean what would a World Cup-tournament be compared to that?

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05-20-2010, 10:28 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by icing View Post
It's not about placing the WHC above the World Cup in terms of being a "best-on-best". It's just that the WHC matters more, except for two countries that wants the world playing for their own "cup". Winning the World Cup is more a "feather in the hat". Winning the WHC is more about national pride.

Lest just say, hypothetical, that we had a WHC-tournament with all the best - like the Olympics. I mean what would a World Cup-tournament be compared to that?
I thought the poster was saying the WHC are above the World Cup as an indicator of "best-on-best".

I thinks it's great that the WHC's are as popular as they are in Europe. I love international hockey in any form myself. They were great in Halifax in 2008 and I hope they come to Canada again.

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05-20-2010, 10:47 AM
  #353
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
I thought the poster was saying the WHC are above the World Cup as an indicator of "best-on-best".

I thinks it's great that the WHC's are as popular as they are in Europe. I love international hockey in any form myself. They were great in Halifax in 2008 and I hope they come to Canada again.
I would like to see the WHC played in North America, let's say every 4 years or something. Though it would make me lose quite a lot of sleep for a few weeks.

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Old
05-20-2010, 11:10 AM
  #354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icing View Post
It's not about placing the WHC above the World Cup in terms of being a "best-on-best". It's just that the WHC matters more, except for two countries that wants the world playing for their own "cup". Winning the World Cup is more a "feather in the hat". Winning the WHC is more about national pride.

Lest just say, hypothetical, that we had a WHC-tournament with all the best - like the Olympics. I mean what would a World Cup-tournament be compared to that?
What would be the difference between the two tournaments than? They would be exactly the same except the World Cup would not be every year making it more prestigious, at least to North Americans.

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05-20-2010, 11:13 AM
  #355
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Originally Posted by Percyswan View Post
What would be the difference between the two tournaments than? They would be exactly the same except the World Cup would not be every year making it more prestigious, at least to North Americans.
The rules are different. WHC is IIHF rules, The WC is NHL Rules.

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05-20-2010, 11:46 AM
  #356
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The rules are different. WHC is IIHF rules, The WC is NHL Rules.
True but most of the players play in the NHL anyways.

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05-20-2010, 11:57 AM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Champagne Wishes View Post
Malkin himself admitted he was tired and worn down because of the NHL grind over the last couple years...and it showed in his play all year long.

Now he's compromising his NHL season next year in an effort to make up for Russia's disappointment at the Olympics. Crosby decided that an opportunity for more than two months rest for the first time since '07 was more important to his end goal - another Cup - than a 2nd tier tournament, so he decided to rejuvenate with an eye on the big goal instead of taxing himself chasing a relatively small goal.

The Cup's infinitely more important to NA players than the WCs. That's where Crosby's interests lie. Malkin's a phenomenal talent, but he's got his priorities mixed-up.
He's got his priorities mixed up in your eyes though. This is exactly what I mean. This tournament means a lot to Russia and Malkin. I'm sure he is tired, but he is willing to suck it up for a couple of extra weeks to represent his country in something that has great meaning to him. That also doesn't mean that he doesn't care about winning the Stanley Cup. Crosby doesn't have to go because he's tired...or he just doesn't think it's important, but it is to Malkin and he has the right. It's really not fair to question to his priorities or his commitment level because he chose to play for his country one more time.

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Originally Posted by RandV View Post



I kind of take offense to that last part. Yes there are some idiots you may see on a hockey message board on the internet, but that is never a representation of the whole Country. In general I'd say we have a feeling of apathy towards the tournament, not scorn. Obviously our biggest hockey event is the Stanley Cup Playoffs, especially when there's a Canadian team in the mix, if the IIHF is going to hold some European international tournament at the same time on the other side of the pond not many are going to pay attention.

When the playoffs aren't on and it comes to international play we get behind the best on best tournaments, and of course the World Juniors which we absolutely love... and ironically enough people in Europe are apathetic too and the few hardcore that post on message boards seem to like saying it's not important and has no meaning.
I didn't mean to generalize, but a lot of what I'm hearing in the media, radio and on this board have a lot of 'who cares ' attitude because it's not a big deal here in Canada. It is a big deal in Europe, they care, they want to see the best of the best and they have a right to be pissed.

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Old
05-20-2010, 12:42 PM
  #358
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So the parties involved here for each player would be the following:

IIHF - hosting the tourney, sending the invitations

Each country's hockey board - i.e. Hockey Canada - sending invites to players, controlling the political stuff that goes on behind the scenes

NHL / teams - have a say concerning injured players and their eligibility to play

each individual player


The way I see it, if Hockey Canada doesn't have an issue with players not going, the IIHF doesn't have a leg to stand on. I also wouldn't be surprised that the reason why most of the Russians have gone is because they want to be on the Russia Olympic team in Sochi - their position could be significantly more political precarious than the Canadians at the moment.

The Canadians are getting their young guys some international experience, the Russians want to win this year. There is probably minimal political fallout for Canadian players and organizers this year, so why not skip it? If this were the year before the Olympics, I bet a lot more guys would have said "yes".

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05-20-2010, 12:42 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by OZO4058 View Post
He's got his priorities mixed up in your eyes though. This is exactly what I mean. This tournament means a lot to Russia and Malkin. I'm sure he is tired, but he is willing to suck it up for a couple of extra weeks to represent his country in something that has great meaning to him. That also doesn't mean that he doesn't care about winning the Stanley Cup. Crosby doesn't have to go because he's tired...or he just doesn't think it's important, but it is to Malkin and he has the right. It's really not fair to question to his priorities or his commitment level because he chose to play for his country one more time.



I didn't mean to generalize, but a lot of what I'm hearing in the media, radio and on this board have a lot of 'who cares ' attitude because it's not a big deal here in Canada. It is a big deal in Europe, they care, they want to see the best of the best and they have a right to be pissed.
Is it just me or do people just like getting themselves worked up.

You are going to see a "who cares" response when someone challenges why some NA players don't go to the WHC's. I'm not sure why this is debated every year and why after years of NA indifference the IIHF decides to publicly call out players, especially in an Olympic year.

If people in Europe want to see the best of the best then the IIHF has to change the timing/format.

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05-20-2010, 01:28 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
Is it just me or do people just like getting themselves worked up.

You are going to see a "who cares" response when someone challenges why some NA players don't go to the WHC's. I'm not sure why this is debated every year and why after years of NA indifference the IIHF decides to publicly call out players, especially in an Olympic year.

If people in Europe want to see the best of the best then the IIHF has to change the timing/format.
It is very strange. I think it's funny that the IIHF is angry with the Canadian players and I assume Hockey Canada just because they don't support this tournament like some other countries do. Where would the World Juniors be without Hockey Canada?

I don't see why the World Championships are so important that players have to go every year, especially after the Olympics. Just because the tournament exists does not mean it should be a requirement among NHL players. I don't know how big of a draw a guy like Crosby would be for this tournament but I guess they wanted to make some money of him pretty badly. To the people claiming national pride is at stake: did you not watch the Olympics? Why 3 months later do we need another tournament?

Not to mention the fact that Crosby would have to replace a player already on the roster. "Oh, thanks for coming over to Germany to represent your country but we found a better player to replace you!". When the rosters are named unless injuries occur they should be locked.

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05-20-2010, 01:48 PM
  #361
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Tired is a miner who works in a damp pit in Miktivka, in the Donetsk Plateau in Ukraine, who never sees daylight and who provides living for a family of five in a modest two-room apartment. That is tired.

Tired is a divorced mother with two young kids who double shifts as a nurse assistant and cleaning lady to make ends meet.
I lol'd. He was pretty spot on as far as Swedes go, anyways.

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05-20-2010, 01:54 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by Ribban View Post
OK. But, in 2011, the NHL is talking about another World Cup.

What do you think the Canadian reaction would be if Russia didn't bother to show because they are tired and want to prepare for 2014. The Swedes only sent players from their second tier division as the other guys need to be in training camps with their teams. The Czechs don't want to spend the money on yet another tournament, and the Fins showed up but partyed through the nights and could barely stand on their skates for the games.

Any thoughts on what the reaction could be in Canada? Any thoughts on how people in Canada might react if they were told that their opinion is garbage as is the tournament?

I'm not trying to trolll. It's an honest question.
Well first of all not all things are equal here. If North America completely skips out on the World Championships you still have a 8-12 team tournament. If Europe skips out on an NHL sponsored World Cup, then we have a two team tournament. So rather a more equivilent example would be if just Russia decided not to show.

Even then, does Canada not send a team that's up to the level of competition? Stamkos isn't good enough, you need to see Crosby play? It's not like we're building a team out of the CHL & AHL here, we still (on paper) always send a gold/silver medal quality team.

Overall I fully understand its a big tournament in Europe and I support that but I just don't think it should be an issue how North American players treat the tournament, and due to all the different factors involved would be very difficult to create an equivilent scenario with the shoe on the other foot.

...Or not quite, for fan opinon at least we have the WJC's. Try to get a European fan to agree that WJC medals should count as an indicator of a Country's hockey prowess

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Old
05-20-2010, 03:02 PM
  #363
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Hockey Canada has now filed an official complaint with the IIHF over the comments posted by by Szymon Szemberg, the federationís director of communications.
http://www.theprovince.com/sports/ho...#ixzz0oUvkeB1f

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Old
05-20-2010, 03:35 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Corto View Post
Not really.

There are two giant variables that people seem to completely ignore when talking about international hockey.

Best-on-best, okay:

Non-NA ground, international ice, Nagano: Euro 1-2-3, Canada and USA w/o medals
NA ground, international ice, SLC: CAN-USA final
Non-NA ground, international ice, Turin, Euro 1-2-3. Canada and USA w/medals
NA ground, NHL ice, Vanouver, Canada-USA finals.

The venue DOES matter.
The size of the rink DOES matter.
The general atmosphere (home ground) DOES matter.

Canada (World) Cup is just not a tournament based on even grounds.
A Euro nation has to SEVERELY outplay Canada to stand a chance to actually win a game in Canada, on an NHL rink, in front of an all-Canadian crowd, and in some cases, officials non-intentionally turned by the crowd.

The NHL is not WORLD hockey.
And just because something is held in high esteem in Canada, it doesn't mean it's that important in Europe.
Europe loves World Championships. NA doesn't.
NA loves World Cups. Europe, likes it... But ultimately, considers is an exhibition competition below the rank of WC.
Considering all the best international stars play and make their living in NHL rinks on NHL ice I think you can throw that argument out the window.

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05-20-2010, 03:47 PM
  #365
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Considering all the best international stars play and make their living in NHL rinks on NHL ice I think you can throw that argument out the window.
Agreed. Most of the good players for Russia play in the NHL and are used to all the rules. All the NHL players (who in best on best tournaments make up most of the rosters) are not used to the "international" rules. The Gold Medal game in the Olympics this year was one of the best international games I've ever seen and played on NHL ice not international ice. You can have a great tournament with either ice, but the standard ice for the best players in the world is the NHL.

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05-20-2010, 04:09 PM
  #366
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They're talking about this now on the Power Play show on the NHL Network.

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05-20-2010, 04:17 PM
  #367
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Simple question, If the WHC is so popular in Europe, why all the empty seats? Why is Jagr having to complain about Czech players not showing up? Is any elite team, other than Russia, even close to icing their best roster?

I'm not questioning that it's more popular than a tournament that hasn't been held in 6 years and who knows when the next one is, but regardless.

And I'll prefer any tournament that best on best, opposed to what the WHC is now (great disparity between the teams in icing their best players). If the WHC gets all the top players in the world playing in it (though can't see that being possible with it's timing), then I'll care about it a lot more because it'll say a lot more about actual hockey powers. As of now, I still question why they even bother holding it this year, given the Olympics, the 100 times more important tournamet that was a best-on-best, were less than 3 months ago.

And the international ice argument is weak. To say it's biased in favour of Canada to use NHL sized ice, it's much more biased towards Russia and other European teams to use International ice. All Russians, Swedish, players have experience playing on international ice, and the large majority of the best players on those teams also have significant experience playing on NHL ice. You can't say vice versa with Canadian/American players.

Anyhow, on the flip side, it's good of the Russian stars to want defend their title and possibly see this as some form of redemption over their Olympic performance. Have to respect that, though at the same time as a Penguins fan, I would like to have seen Malkin rest.


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Old
05-20-2010, 04:29 PM
  #368
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The rules are different. WHC is IIHF rules, The WC is NHL Rules.
List the major differences between IIHF rules and NHL rules. If you can.

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Old
05-20-2010, 04:33 PM
  #369
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US and Canada failed miserably and I hope now they will realize that you can't just send whoever to represent the country, the people and the flag.

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05-20-2010, 04:39 PM
  #370
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US and Canada failed miserably and I hope now they will realize that you can't just send whoever to represent the country, the people and the flag.
I'm just sad Canada lost Olympic gold this year.

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05-20-2010, 04:45 PM
  #371
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US and Canada failed miserably and I hope now they will realize that you can't just send whoever to represent the country, the people and the flag.
Is this strategy called Assembling the Russian Olympic team?

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05-20-2010, 04:48 PM
  #372
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I lol'd. He was pretty spot on as far as Swedes go, anyways.
which is where i think he screwed up. as i've said before instead of calling out guys who actually have a legitimate excuse, why not call out the guys who aren't NHL players and who aren't injured or have played a massive amount of games in the past and have been turning down the tournament for some time now? there is an ongoing issue of players from various countries in europe, such as the swedes, saying no, but its like he got lazy and decided to go more so for the publicity than to do some actual hard nose research.

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05-20-2010, 05:24 PM
  #373
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US and Canada failed miserably and I hope now they will realize that you can't just send whoever to represent the country, the people and the flag.
Yeah, the Russians learned that after failing miserably for such a long time. These whomever you speak of are good hockey players, perhaps your Olympic team didn't realize from all the spanking and neutral zone chances they got.

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05-20-2010, 05:27 PM
  #374
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Perhaps crosby was just trying to do something nice for good buddy Evgeni Malkin by making sure Canada wasn't even close to competitive.

Why do people always assume the worst about others? Sheesh.

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05-20-2010, 05:30 PM
  #375
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Originally Posted by OZO4058 View Post
He's got his priorities mixed up in your eyes though. This is exactly what I mean. This tournament means a lot to Russia and Malkin. I'm sure he is tired, but he is willing to suck it up for a couple of extra weeks to represent his country in something that has great meaning to him. That also doesn't mean that he doesn't care about winning the Stanley Cup. Crosby doesn't have to go because he's tired...or he just doesn't think it's important, but it is to Malkin and he has the right. It's really not fair to question to his priorities or his commitment level because he chose to play for his country one more time.
Of course, he has a right to play in the WCs after admitting that the NHL grind has taken its toll. It's his life.

But if that's the case, those who follow the NHL also have every right to rake him over the coals next year if he wears down and doesn't play up to par (like he did this past year) because of a lack of sufficient rest. That's our prerogative.

Quote:
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US and Canada failed miserably and I hope now they will realize that you can't just send whoever to represent the country, the people and the flag.
That's basically what every major international team but Russia did. Enjoy the win.

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