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2011 World Cup

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Old
05-20-2010, 12:49 PM
  #26
icing
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Originally Posted by CanadaRules View Post
If all the best players were at the Karjala Cup, and you managed to win it that would be better then winning a WHC gold. IF the best are there no other tournament can surpass it.
Then congratulations to you. You are a Karjala Cup champion.

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05-20-2010, 12:52 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by icing View Post
Then congratulations to you. You are a Karjala Cup champion.
If all the best players decided to attend the Karjala Cup you don't think winnning that tournament would be better than winning gold in the WHC?

95% of the bests ditch the WHC except the Russians because their commies.
All of the bests would be at the Karjala Cup.. barring injuries.

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05-20-2010, 12:56 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by icing View Post
Its not always the win, its what you win that matters. The World Cup really hasnt any value in itself. It's like, for som reason, an EHT-tournament (lets say Karjala Cup) managed to get all the best players. Sure nice to win it but still, you only won the Karjala cup! (no offence fins )

If the best werent at the Olympics the Olympic gold would still be an Olympic gold. To bad fot those great athlets who wasnt present but the winner wont feel sorry for that. He/she just made history.
THat's true about Olympic Gold, whcih is prob. why all players say 'yes' to the Olympics. But if the IIHF tourney is so 'valuable', why do players say
no' to it even when available ?


But waht the World Cup does have over the IIHF is that it is a truer indication of who the better team is since the best players are present. Which I think is the best bottom line.

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05-20-2010, 12:59 PM
  #29
icing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadaRules View Post
If all the best players decided to attend the Karjala Cup you don't think winnning that tournament would be better than winning gold in the WHC?

95% of the bests ditch the WHC except the Russians because their commies.
All of the bests would be at the Karjala Cup.. barring injuries.
I'd rather be an Olympic champion despite the Karjala tournament happend to have the better rosters. And yes, I'd rather see Sweden win WHC, than a Karjala Cup on steroids.

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Old
05-20-2010, 01:02 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by MapleLeafs38 View Post
Hmmm...I'm pretty sure he was the Governor General of Canada even though he was born in UK. Nice try though
He was in Canada for only 5 years
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederi..._Earl_of_Derby

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05-20-2010, 01:05 PM
  #31
icing
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Originally Posted by ontheDB View Post
But if the IIHF tourney is so 'valuable', why do players say
no' to it even when available ?
Because they are employed in NA where no consideration to the WHC is taken.

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05-20-2010, 01:10 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by CanadaRules View Post
You got a link for this. It goes against everything that I've heard. Although, if Buttman is open to NHL participation in Sochi I'd imagine the need for a WC gets put on the back-burner.
Sorry it was in the paper version of a Finnish paper Iltalehti. But those were his (Kummola's) words in a small interview.

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Old
05-20-2010, 01:20 PM
  #33
Doshell Propivo
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Originally Posted by Uncle Rotter View Post
Someone tell Don Cherry the cup is named after a European...

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Old
05-20-2010, 01:28 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icing View Post
I'd rather be an Olympic champion despite the Karjala tournament happend to have the better rosters. And yes, I'd rather see Sweden win WHC, than a Karjala Cup on steroids.
But that's with your current opinions of the tourney - which have been cultivated from what you've been watching:
Karjala - best pros unable to make it to other leagues (for the most part).
Olympics - best World level pros (best amateur level pros before that).


But after a decade or so, you would respect the Karjala more than today:
Karajala - - best World A-Teams
Olympics - best world B-teams

Which is what the World Cup is trying to do. Develop their name (and the sport) by having the best talent play.

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Old
05-20-2010, 01:53 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
The World Cup will never have any serious value until three things happen:

1. It starts to occur in regular time intervals, rather than just whenever it strikes the fancy of the NHL/NHLPA;

2. It starts being run more like the FIFA World Cup, with a set number of teams and a rotating host country (or maybe more than one, but in close proximity);

3. It starts taking place at a better time of the year than at the end of the summer right before training camps, when all the players (both NHLers and European Leaguers) are at the worst in terms of conditioning and hockey-readiness.
I completely agree with your first two points but completely disagree with your third. September is the absolutely best time to have it. All the best players are at their most rested and, for the most part, have healed from the previous seasons injuries. National teams can have longer training camps and gives the teams a longer time to gel, which you don't get with the Olympics. Baseball holds it's World Baseball Classic during training camp, and everyone seems to love that format as well....

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Old
05-20-2010, 02:21 PM
  #36
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The World Cup is great, I hope they bring it back for good. Other than the Olympics it's the only best on best tournament.

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05-20-2010, 03:11 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by PaulieVegas View Post
I'll tell you what, while we're at it, why don't we change the name of the "National Hockey League" to the "Canadian Hockey League." Maybe the "Stanley Cup" can be called the "Canadian Cup." In international tournaments, perhaps we can just tip the ice in Canada's direction, how 'bout that?

Think about it: do you want a good tournament where everyone brings their A-game, or do you want a tournament where Canada wins by default because nobody gives a **** because every advantage favors Canada? Think about it, if you're a European or American player, are you really going to get pumped up for a tournament played on CANADIAN home ice in front of a CANADIAN crowd on CANADIAN ice size with CANADIAN referees to compete for a trophy that is named after CANADA? Under those circumstances, would anyone blame anyone that isn't Canada for not caring about the tournament?

Oh wait, maybe that's exactly what Canada wants. I'm betting the Canada Cup, with all its built-in Canadian advantages, was invented not to be a legitimate hockey tournament, but to be a showcase of Canadian superiority. And it's a lot easier to showcase your superiority when everything favors you, isn't that right?
Someone has an inferiority complex with regard to hockey. The only advantage of note that you listed would be the ice size, which you neglect to mention also benefited the Americans. Ice size certainly did benefit Canada, although at the time either the North Americans or Europeans would have to play on an ice size with which they were quite unfamiliar. I really doubt that a change in ice size made the Europeans care less about the tournament. I'm pretty sure the Soviet fans and especially players enjoyed their 1981 Canada Cup victory quite a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by icing View Post
Its not always the win, its what you win that matters. The World Cup really hasnt any value in itself. It's like, for som reason, an EHT-tournament (lets say Karjala Cup) managed to get all the best players. Sure nice to win it but still, you only won the Karjala cup! (no offence fins )

If the best werent at the Olympics the Olympic gold would still be an Olympic gold. To bad fot those great athlets who wasnt present but the winner wont feel sorry for that. He/she just made history.
No trophy has value in and of itself. The Olympic medal only has value because you beat the best to win it. If the Olympics featured randomly chosen athletes instead of the world's best no one would care who won. If the Stanley Cup was suddenly awarded to the winner of the AHL playoffs and the Calder Cup was given to the NHL champion, would people still prefer the Stanley Cup to the Calder Cup? Clearly not. A trophy's value is dependent on the quality of the competition for it. The World Cup features the best players in hockey just as the Canada Cup almost always did. As such it is a very important trophy, and as far as hockey goes it is as significant as a victory in the Olympics after 1998.

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Old
05-20-2010, 03:21 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
About NHL participation at Sotshi 2014: Kummola talked to Bettman during Vancouver Olympic games and Bettman's stance on it had softened considerably. He was now clearly in favour of NHL participation. Naturally owners might be against it, nut they don't really understand international hockey. But Bettman and his staff do.
I've always thought Bettman is actually in favor of NHL participation in Sochi and is just bluffing in order to force NBC to change certain things, like live games being on MSNBC and CNBC instead of NBC.

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Old
05-20-2010, 03:23 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doshell Propivo View Post
Someone tell Don Cherry the cup is named after a European...
Actually, don't. No one should waste their time listening to his "Canada is great, everyone else sucks" rah-rah.

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Old
05-20-2010, 06:16 PM
  #40
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Daniel Sedin - Henrik Sedin - Henrik Zetterberg

Loui Eriksson - Nicklas Backstrom - Johan Franzen

Mikael Samuelsson - Alexander Steen - Patric Hornqvist

Fredrik Sjostrom - Tom Wandell - Viktor Stalberg (checking-line)





Tobias Enstrom - Henrik Tallinder

Alexander Edler - Niklas Hjalmarsson

Niklas Kronwall - Nicklas Grossman

Douglas Murray






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Old
05-20-2010, 09:21 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by landskronala View Post
Daniel Sedin - Henrik Sedin - Henrik Zetterberg
Loui Eriksson - Nicklas Backstrom - Johan Franzen
Mikael Samuelsson - Alexander Steen - Patric Hornqvist
Fredrik Sjostrom - Tom Wandell - Viktor Stalberg (checking-line)

Tobias Enstrom - Henrik Tallinder
Alexander Edler - Niklas Hjalmarsson
Niklas Kronwall - Nicklas Grossman
Douglas Murray

I can guarantee that that team will get destroyed!
Until they get some goaltenders...

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Old
05-20-2010, 09:22 PM
  #42
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The World Cup of hockey are a fun tournament, but its just a tournament and not a championship. You can only become World Champion in the World Championship and its only opened for the top nations.

But a World Cup is a lot of good hockey to the fans and its have some prestige to win be course most of the top players will play for there teams.

And its good for promoting hockey in North America. Canada and USA are dominating in tournaments played in North America in the same way Europeans dominated tournaments played outside North America.

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Old
05-20-2010, 10:38 PM
  #43
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I must admit, I would laugh my ass off if European national teams sent U23s to make a point.

As it will almost certainly involve the seven or so top nations and their best NHL talent, it should be a heck of tournament. Always fun.

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Old
05-21-2010, 12:25 AM
  #44
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I agree with the statement that the level of competition is what makes a championship, not the title. There are reasons why the majors in golf and the grand slams in tennis are valued more than other tournaments, because the competition is stronger. There is a reason why the World Cup of Soccer is worth more than the gold medal for soccer at the Olympics, the competition is stronger.

The world championships suffers from this, the best players from most of the countries declined to play because it is not as important to them and therefor ranks 3rd behind the Olympics and the World Cup of hockey. It does not require complicated math and physics to figure this out and it is not just a North America thing either. The World Championship is held during the playoffs of the world's best league where most of the worlds best players play.

I don't understand how any fan of hockey could not view the World Cup as being more prestigious than the World Championships.

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Old
05-21-2010, 01:05 AM
  #45
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i liked how the last 2 were held in the middle of the olympic break. i mean it seemed like 96 had a bit more to it because the NHL was finally gonna send players to the Olympics and it was like a preview of players you were gonna find on teams in 98. 2004 was a bit rougher considering it was right before the lockout and all those years later, but if they could hold it consistently in the middle i think it could gain some ground.

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Old
05-21-2010, 01:24 AM
  #46
DoyleG
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Doctor View Post
I completely agree with your first two points but completely disagree with your third. September is the absolutely best time to have it. All the best players are at their most rested and, for the most part, have healed from the previous seasons injuries. National teams can have longer training camps and gives the teams a longer time to gel, which you don't get with the Olympics. Baseball holds it's World Baseball Classic during training camp, and everyone seems to love that format as well....
Actually, the format of the WBC exists the way it is since there is no other time in the season to hold it. To say that everyone loves the format is stretching it given that North American players have been lukewarm to the proposal to begin with.

Furthermore, camps for the national teams aren't really long and teams never do really gel.

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Old
05-21-2010, 01:26 AM
  #47
DoyleG
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Originally Posted by Nakawick View Post
I don't understand how any fan of hockey could not view the World Cup as being more prestigious than the World Championships.
Because its an NHL-glory tournament. Not an international competition.

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Old
05-21-2010, 01:30 AM
  #48
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I prefer to take part in the Eurotour rather than in that pantomime called World Cup of Hockey.

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Old
05-21-2010, 01:59 AM
  #49
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The World Cup is more international then the World Championships imo, in 2004 games were played on both international and north american ice in six different countries in the these cities; Toronto, Prague, Helsinki, Montreal, Cologne, St. Paul, and Stockholm.

The rosters were Olympic caliber as well, they really should put this tournament on consistently in off Olympic years.

This Canada-Czech semi-final was a hell of a game.


Last edited by Wham City: 05-21-2010 at 02:05 AM.
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Old
05-21-2010, 02:05 AM
  #50
DoyleG
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Yet 2004 will be remembered as the last cash garb before the lockout. This was the reason it was held anyways.

Basing a competition on the size of someone's members, as many "World Cup" supporters are, has no real validity.

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