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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

2011 World Cup

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Old
05-21-2010, 05:48 PM
  #76
MontrealHabitant
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Originally Posted by ViD View Post
I say if Russia has to play all its games in North America again, we shouldn't participate.
I'd expect it to be like in 2004.

All Across the world

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05-21-2010, 05:49 PM
  #77
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No thanks. I'd rather make the WCH's more appealing than let NHL have their little promotion tournament where they can make an extra buck.

Think the reaction from us Europeans in this thread says it all.

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05-21-2010, 06:18 PM
  #78
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My biggest problem with this tournament is how much its played in North America. If its the World Cup play it all over the world. The last one they played a bunch of games in Europe then those teams had to FLY over while 4 teams got to stay on one side of the world and rest. Thats not good.

They need to improve that aspect of the tournament.

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05-21-2010, 07:56 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
In the 1996 World Cup of Hockey 19 games were played, 6 were on European soil.

In the 2004 World Cup of Hockey 19 games were played and 8 were on European soil.

The World Cup is moving towards equal numbers of games for Europe and North America, and has been vastly more progressive on this issue then the IIHF vis. a vis. the World Championships.
Doesn't matter if the meaningless group games are played in Europe when the teams have travel across the Atlantic and play a playoff game jetlagged.

On the bolded part: what???

Did you read the post you quoted? It's not about IIHF wanting more WHC tournaments in NA, it's about them not being interest in hosting it!

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05-21-2010, 08:43 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by therealdeal View Post
My biggest problem with this tournament is how much its played in North America. If its the World Cup play it all over the world. The last one they played a bunch of games in Europe then those teams had to FLY over while 4 teams got to stay on one side of the world and rest. Thats not good.

They need to improve that aspect of the tournament.
So why hasn't a European nation lobbied to host it?

Kind of like the old Canada Cup. Europeans never offered an alternative.

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05-21-2010, 09:00 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by joe89 View Post
No thanks. I'd rather make the WCH's more appealing than let NHL have their little promotion tournament where they can make an extra buck.

Think the reaction from us Europeans in this thread says it all.
Even though I was pissed when Bettman trashed the Canada cup and brought in the World cup, I agree with you.


The NHL doesn't help European hockey anywhere near how it helps American hockey.

It's the Europeans that should be pissed off at bettman more than anyone.

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05-21-2010, 09:55 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Doesn't matter if the meaningless group games are played in Europe when the teams have travel across the Atlantic and play a playoff game jetlagged.

On the bolded part: what???

Did you read the post you quoted? It's not about IIHF wanting more WHC tournaments in NA, it's about them not being interest in hosting it!
Who's to say Canada was never interesting in hosting the WHC's before? Canada only had to come to Europe 72 times and win the tournament 24 times for the IIHF to agree to host it in Canada. Meanwhile Switzerland (no offence, I love Swiss Hockey) has never won the tournament and has hosted it 10 times. What does that tell you about the nature of the IIHF?

At the last World Cup 41% of the games were played in Europe, these weren't exhibition games, these were group games as well as quarterfinals of consequence.

I"d be all for a World Cup semi-final and final in Europe, I think it would be fantastic for hockey and judging by the increase in percent of Europe played games from 1996-2004 I imagine in the future it will happen.

As for the travel issue I agree it isn't fair in spite of the 3 days rest they got, maybe they should have the North American group teams take a flight of equal distance prior to the semi-finals.


Last edited by Wham City: 05-21-2010 at 10:06 PM.
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05-21-2010, 10:08 PM
  #83
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Europeans are right about the history of the world championship trumping that of the Canada/World cup.

Why not just have the world championship every 2 years and alternate the location amongst the top 10 hockey countries and hold it when all the best players are available. July, August. September?

The only IIHF rule I would change is no shoot outs.

Eliminate the world cup.

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05-21-2010, 10:27 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Hockey Fan001 View Post
Europeans are right about the history of the world championship trumping that of the Canada/World cup.

Why not just have the world championship every 2 years and alternate the location amongst the top 10 hockey countries and hold it when all the best players are available. July, August. September?

The only IIHF rule I would change is no shoot outs.

Eliminate the world cup.
I'd go for that if it was held every four years in between Olympics. I could care less if it's the World Championship or a World Cup who puts it on.

There's a big hockey summit this summer in Toronto between the NHL, IIHF, Hockey Canada, USA Hockey and the CHL and one of the things they'll be discussing is the nature of the World Championships and if they should be changed.

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05-21-2010, 10:42 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
I'd go for that if it was held every four years in between Olympics. I could care less if it's the World Championship or a World Cup who puts it on.

There's a big hockey summit this summer in Toronto between the NHL, IIHF, Hockey Canada, USA Hockey and the CHL and one of the things they'll be discussing is the nature of the World Championships and if they should be changed.
I'm just curious why the hockey organisations of Sweden, Finland, Russia etc aren't going to it...or are they?

I think a re-visit of all tournaments has to be done.

The biggest joke is the under 18. The Americans have a huge advantage in that tournament.

The world juniors are another joke. Every year players who could play aren't released by their NHL teams BUT they are by their junior teams. That affects standings, individual stats and the paying customers.

I find it interesting that just as Americans are becoming better, a summit to change something that Europeans have held dear is being held.....but not surprised, seeing that Bettman is involved.

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05-22-2010, 01:55 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Rob View Post
So why hasn't a European nation lobbied to host it?

Kind of like the old Canada Cup. Europeans never offered an alternative.
EDITED.

Misunderstod. Lost my cool, and wrote jibberish.


Last edited by Ribban: 05-22-2010 at 02:01 AM.
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Old
05-22-2010, 01:59 AM
  #87
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[QUOTE=Hockey Fan001;25940115]Even though I was pissed when Bettman trashed the Canada cup and brought in the World cup, I agree with you.


EDITED:

Again. Misunderstood something. Lost perspective and went off way out of line.

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Old
05-22-2010, 03:12 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
Everything is about money, the IIHF doesn't hold the World Championships for selfless reasons, they are trying to make money.
Wrong. They host it because it has a value that goes far beyond the notion of cash. If it was all about cash, it would be held every year in Canada, but its not so your complaint has no real value to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
At the time of the 2004 World Cup the top eight ranked countries according to the IIHF were Canada, Russia, Germany, Finland, Sweden, Czech Republic, Slovakia and USA.
No one takes rankings seriously in any sport. The fact that you do shows you own naive views on the world. Anyone can fix a rankings system to meet its own needs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
This was a tournament of the eight best hockey country's in the world at the time in a best on best format. You can argue the pool of countries was too large or too small, but you can't argue this wasn't a legitimate tournament of the top eight countries in the world.
You ignore the fact that there is no such thing as the best eight countries in the world. Germany never did anything that would warrant them to be part of an international competition.The only reason for putting them in a "World Cup" is that they are the largest market outside of Russia and one that doesn't have a strong attachment to its national league.

The World Cup suffers because it has no real value attached to it, despite what NHL-obsessed people like yourself have to say about it. The Canada Cup had far more value attach in both the player aspect (Canada's NHLers v. USSR "Amateurs") and the political aspect of the Cold War. The World Cup has none of that, which is why it can never be held on a regular basis. The fact that the last one was a mere crash grab prior to the lockout wrecked any credibility.

The idea of a World Cup is useless since, according to your own ideal world, holding it every 4 years wouldn't produce any real lasting interests in international competition. Even having the Olympics wouldn't help since the World Cup would find itself well behind the Olys and the World Championships. That's the real world, no matter how painful it would be for you to deny it.

Baseball's WBC isn't taken seriously by MLBers even though it was designed specifically for them. North American players see their loyalty only to the club they play for and will easily skip out on the tournament in order to be rested for spring training. The WBC only exists because of the Japanese supporting it rather than what the MLB does. Japan's quitting would basically kill the tournament as it provides the only outlet for existence.

The World Cup of Soccer, the platinum standard, faces the same problems. It may be a great tournament, but it is only played once every 4 years. It therefore must rely on regional tournaments to keep interest in the international game going. This leads to competitions such as the European Championships gaining in popularity that place it on an equal footing with the World Cup.

The same happens in Basketball, where regional championships have often more popularity than the World Championships, leading to the latter placing a rather poor third behind the Olympics and regional competitions. Having the NBA's presence doesn't do good for a championship that is held every 4 years. As such, the NBA is more than willing to enter into deals with FIBA knowing they need the latter for their own expansion. The NHL tries to deny it but they can't avoid the real world when it comes for their own need to survive.

It may be difficult for people like you who have no understanding of international sport unless it suits your own goals. You only give a damn about how Canadian hockey responds when thing don't go your way. You just keep quiet the rest of the time and simply move on to your NHL fantasies. Since your unwilling to take a serious understanding in the matter, then you should keep your feelings about international hockey to yourself.

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Old
05-22-2010, 04:49 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by GavinD80 View Post

The World Cup of Soccer, the platinum standard, faces the same problems. It may be a great tournament, but it is only played once every 4 years. It therefore must rely on regional tournaments to keep interest in the international game going. This leads to competitions such as the European Championships gaining in popularity that place it on an equal footing with the World Cup.
Nope, nowhere near equal.

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Old
05-22-2010, 04:58 AM
  #90
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Nope, nowhere near equal.
For the teams participating and for the fans, yeah it's close. For a guy in Nigeria. Nope, nowhere near equal.

Of course the World Cup is the bigger event though.

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05-22-2010, 06:26 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by GavinD80 View Post
Wrong. They host it because it has a value that goes far beyond the notion of cash. If it was all about cash, it would be held every year in Canada, but its not so your complaint has no real value to it.



No one takes rankings seriously in any sport. The fact that you do shows you own naive views on the world. Anyone can fix a rankings system to meet its own needs.



You ignore the fact that there is no such thing as the best eight countries in the world. Germany never did anything that would warrant them to be part of an international competition.The only reason for putting them in a "World Cup" is that they are the largest market outside of Russia and one that doesn't have a strong attachment to its national league.

The World Cup suffers because it has no real value attached to it, despite what NHL-obsessed people like yourself have to say about it. The Canada Cup had far more value attach in both the player aspect (Canada's NHLers v. USSR "Amateurs") and the political aspect of the Cold War. The World Cup has none of that, which is why it can never be held on a regular basis. The fact that the last one was a mere crash grab prior to the lockout wrecked any credibility.

The idea of a World Cup is useless since, according to your own ideal world, holding it every 4 years wouldn't produce any real lasting interests in international competition. Even having the Olympics wouldn't help since the World Cup would find itself well behind the Olys and the World Championships. That's the real world, no matter how painful it would be for you to deny it.

Baseball's WBC isn't taken seriously by MLBers even though it was designed specifically for them. North American players see their loyalty only to the club they play for and will easily skip out on the tournament in order to be rested for spring training. The WBC only exists because of the Japanese supporting it rather than what the MLB does. Japan's quitting would basically kill the tournament as it provides the only outlet for existence.

The World Cup of Soccer, the platinum standard, faces the same problems. It may be a great tournament, but it is only played once every 4 years. It therefore must rely on regional tournaments to keep interest in the international game going. This leads to competitions such as the European Championships gaining in popularity that place it on an equal footing with the World Cup.

The same happens in Basketball, where regional championships have often more popularity than the World Championships, leading to the latter placing a rather poor third behind the Olympics and regional competitions. Having the NBA's presence doesn't do good for a championship that is held every 4 years. As such, the NBA is more than willing to enter into deals with FIBA knowing they need the latter for their own expansion. The NHL tries to deny it but they can't avoid the real world when it comes for their own need to survive.

It may be difficult for people like you who have no understanding of international sport unless it suits your own goals. You only give a damn about how Canadian hockey responds when thing don't go your way. You just keep quiet the rest of the time and simply move on to your NHL fantasies. Since your unwilling to take a serious understanding in the matter, then you should keep your feelings about international hockey to yourself.
I'd argue the World Championship has no value three months after the Olympics took place, speaking of transparent cashgrabs. FIBA would become a laughingstock if they announced they were holding their World Championships 3 months after the Olympics. If the IIHF World Championships were a stock their value would be plummeting, too much supply not enough demand, they're devaluing their product. And players have taken notice, that's why you get so many no-shows.

If the World Cup participants were strictly based on market size wouldn't they have included Switzerland instead of Slovakia in 2004?

Big sporting events are designed to make money. The FIFA World Cup isn't some charity case, it's a multi-billion dollar enterprise. Sports is entertainment, people pay money to be entertained. And guess what people will pay considerable money to watch the best hockey players in the world play each other, and they don't feel dirty about it. The IIHF has more history on account of being in existence longer, that doesn't necessarily mean the value of it's championship is more then a World Cup championship. The Grey Cup has been around 50 more years then the Super Bowl, does that mean winning the Grey Cup is more prestigious and has more meaning in football? Of course not.

If the NHL and IIHF were smart they'd collaborate and create a quadrennial championship set up for long term growth. The Rubgy World Cup has only been around since 1987 but has grown tremendously since then, the only sporting events bigger are the Summer Olympics and the World Cup. Holding a World Championship annually, even in Olympic years just goes to show you the IIHF has no vision at all.


Last edited by Wham City: 05-22-2010 at 07:21 AM.
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Old
05-26-2010, 12:53 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
Who's to say Canada was never interesting in hosting the WHC's before? Canada only had to come to Europe 72 times and win the tournament 24 times for the IIHF to agree to host it in Canada.
No, it simply took a Canadian bid for Canada to get the WCh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy_Eyez View Post
Meanwhile Switzerland (no offence, I love Swiss Hockey) has never won the tournament and has hosted it 10 times. What does that tell you about the nature of the IIHF?
It tells you you're more likely to host if you bid. Winning the tournament is irrelevant.

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05-26-2010, 01:01 AM
  #93
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Why not just have the world championship every 2 years and alternate the location amongst the top 10 hockey countries and hold it when all the best players are available. July, August. September?

The only IIHF rule I would change is no shoot outs.
As has already been stated, you can't send/keep teams in lower division for two years, it goes against IIHF principles of spreading and developing the game. Then there's the financial issue, World Championships are a huge cash cow for the IIHF (for funding it's operations) and the host country's federation. Due to this, European countries WANT to have the World Championships EVERY YEAR.

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05-26-2010, 01:53 AM
  #94
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As European hockey fan I do not really find World Cup relevant (on par with Euro hockey tour tournaments(Karlaja cup, Swedish hockey games, etc.)). Sure it would be fun tournament to watch, but it just have absolutely no relevance, in the same way as Swedish hockey games for you in Canada.)

There is already best vs best in Olympics, once in four years.

I just dont see the point of this tournament, other than **** measuring in "my tournament > your tournament"


Last edited by klikkar: 05-26-2010 at 02:00 AM.
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05-26-2010, 02:07 AM
  #95
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I would love to see the world cup held every four years. Have it in 2012 and then again in 2016. I would aslo be fine with having the finals held over in Europe. Have the finals in North America one year, Europe the next, and so on.

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05-26-2010, 05:39 AM
  #96
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The same happens in Basketball, where regional championships have often more popularity than the World Championships, leading to the latter placing a rather poor third behind the Olympics and regional competitions.
I don't know where you got the idea that regional competitions were more popular than the World Championships. In 2009 the US did not even enter a team in the Americas tournament.

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05-26-2010, 06:52 AM
  #97
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We cannot win this tourney, so let's pretend we do not care... It's obvious that logic applies both to NA and Europe. But at least World Cup is best on best.

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05-26-2010, 10:53 AM
  #98
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So why hasn't a European nation lobbied to host it?

Kind of like the old Canada Cup. Europeans never offered an alternative.
Well I'm not all that sure why they haven't, but it doesn't mean that the 2004 format was any good. I'd love to see this tournament happen, but it has to be done properly.

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05-27-2010, 12:03 AM
  #99
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I don't know where you got the idea that regional competitions were more popular than the World Championships. In 2009 the US did not even enter a team in the Americas tournament.
Eurobasket is treated as being bigger than the World Championships. As for your "proof" of the FIBA Americas, you ignore the South American sides, who take such a tournament seriously along with their fans.The Asian tournament also is known to draw huge crowds as well.

Players from Canada Golden Age in the 70's and 80's hated playing in the tournament, especially in South America, knowing the hostility of the crowds there. Basing all you examples on the US is just being ignorant.

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05-27-2010, 12:37 AM
  #100
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We cannot win this tourney, so let's pretend we do not care... It's obvious that logic applies both to NA and Europe. But at least World Cup is best on best.
while I enjoyed the US's win in 96 I don't really care about the fate of this tournament. The World Championships are good enough for me.

It's obvious the NHL only uses the World Cup as a bargaining tool for American TV deals. They just want more to offer ESPN for a new deal.

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