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Ovechkin with team Russia - mediocre in important games

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Old
05-25-2010, 12:42 AM
  #126
ronnyweed
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Originally Posted by Foy View Post
You're going to be a lot better message board poster when you realize that you can actually watch games and form your own opinions rather than just posting the same thing that other uninformed people pre-decided without actually gathering any evidence to make their own decisions.
I strive to become the message board poster you are

This is the opinion I developed on my own, sorry if you don't agree

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05-25-2010, 01:00 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by MattBradleyKO View Post
I was talking about Game 7. Jesus christ, actually read the posts. This thread is about "important games", and people were flinging feces about his performance in Game 7s. Well, his performance in Game 7s has actually been pretty damn good if you, ya know, actually watched and paid attention. Either way, I don't see where I "backed off". You picked a couple goals where the first had nothing to do with him, and the 2nd was him going off for a line change. It's like every time there's an odd man rush against the Caps some idiot starts posting on HF boards "where was Ovechkin on that backcheck?!?" It's not always his responsibility to be the first forward back, he is a winger after all.
I love how Ovechkin can do no wrong in your eyes. Forget the fact that he could have helped prevent game 7, and forget the fact that the other goal was not his fault and not his responsibility. The fact that you don't know what's going to happen is the reason you should be skating hard back. Be responsible and help your teams at both ends. When he realizes that this is important, and not just in game 7 situations, then I think he and Washington will have a lot more team success.

Washington's success hinges on more than just Ovechkin...no team wins with just one person. But he can do more to help his team than just put up the offensive numbers and lay some big hits. But if you want to keep the blinders on and believe he can do no wrong, then enjoy the all the individual awards he wins, because I think team success (internationally and in the NHL) may prove to be elusive.

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05-25-2010, 01:13 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by hockeydadx2 View Post
The guy is supposedly the best player in the world. If true, he should have multiple championships that he has led his team to. If true, he should not need internet dweebos to constantly defend him. If true, he should not have a season where his team failed miserably 3 times in the space of a few months.

He's a great player. As of now, he is NOT a great leader of men.
What part of "hockey is a team sport" don't you understand?

It's like some of you were born yesterday.

The best players of the last 10-20 years (Hasek, Bourque, Lidstrom, Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Yzerman, Mario) did not win until playing with other superstars on elite teams.

Ovechkin is still young and his playoff #s are fantastic. He has multiple Harts and Pearsons. His team is still young.

******** on him at this point is just something ppl are doing to hate or express ignorance.

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05-25-2010, 02:24 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by EroCaps View Post
What part of "hockey is a team sport" don't you understand?

It's like some of you were born yesterday.

The best players of the last 10-20 years (Hasek, Bourque, Lidstrom, Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Yzerman, Mario) did not win until playing with other superstars on elite teams.

Ovechkin is still young and his playoff #s are fantastic. He has multiple Harts and Pearsons. His team is still young.

******** on him at this point is just something ppl are doing to hate or express ignorance.
The best example used above is Yzerman who changed the way he played to be more defensive. He sacrificed some of his offense for the team and that was a key reason they turned it around.

Do you not believe there are some things Ovechkin could do which would better help his team win?

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05-25-2010, 03:25 AM
  #130
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Steve Yzerman was a center, there is a difference.

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05-25-2010, 03:34 AM
  #131
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these threads are completely ridiculous. Of course there's something he can improve upon, just like every other player in the NHL. But what gets people so aggravated is that everytime the Capitals come up short everyone runs to HFBoards to make foolish claims like "Caps lost, Ovechkin sucks, he doesn't backcheck, he's not a leader of men, he doesn't care, he only cares about his stats, he doesn't know how to win, he never shows up in big games, etc". The people who say that look particularly ridiculous especially when considering that the one constant, when it comes to Capitals playoff hockey, is that Ovechkin always produces. It's just ridiculous how the other allegedly elite players on the team don't produce anything aside from penalty minutes and goals against, and it's AO who takes all the heat for the team losing. This is all compounded when certain players receive nothing but praise for always showing up when it counts when, in reality, if you were to look at their performances in huge games it really isn't the case.

Ovie's been awesome in the playoffs, he always takes his game to the next level. People acting as if that hasn't been the case are simply making fools out of themselves. It's hockey, where the best players will be on the ice for about a third of the game. They can't do it all themselves.

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05-25-2010, 05:22 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by MattBradleyKO View Post
these threads are completely ridiculous. Of course there's something he can improve upon, just like every other player in the NHL. But what gets people so aggravated is that everytime the Capitals come up short everyone runs to HFBoards to make foolish claims like "Caps lost, Ovechkin sucks, he doesn't backcheck, he's not a leader of men, he doesn't care, he only cares about his stats, he doesn't know how to win, he never shows up in big games, etc". The people who say that look particularly ridiculous especially when considering that the one constant, when it comes to Capitals playoff hockey, is that Ovechkin always produces. It's just ridiculous how the other allegedly elite players on the team don't produce anything aside from penalty minutes and goals against, and it's AO who takes all the heat for the team losing. This is all compounded when certain players receive nothing but praise for always showing up when it counts when, in reality, if you were to look at their performances in huge games it really isn't the case.

Ovie's been awesome in the playoffs, he always takes his game to the next level. People acting as if that hasn't been the case are simply making fools out of themselves. It's hockey, where the best players will be on the ice for about a third of the game. They can't do it all themselves.
You are his knight! Let nobody question his greatness without expectation of your response. If only he had better players on the Caps and Russian teams...then we'd see what he's capable of.

It's too bad you can't just take a step back and get off the Ovie bandwagon for one second and just admit that there is a reason these threads come up again and again and it isn't just because those posters hate Ovie. Where there's smoke, there's usually fire and the reason some argue so adamantly is partly due to fans like yourself arguing so adamantly that they're wrong. The truth (in my opinion) lies somewhere in the middle and it would be nice if people could show reason instead of blind devotion (or dislike) when discussing him or the other guy.

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05-25-2010, 07:33 AM
  #133
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Originally Posted by MattBradleyKO View Post
these threads are completely ridiculous. Of course there's something he can improve upon, just like every other player in the NHL. But what gets people so aggravated is that everytime the Capitals come up short everyone runs to HFBoards to make foolish claims like "Caps lost, Ovechkin sucks, he doesn't backcheck, he's not a leader of men, he doesn't care, he only cares about his stats, he doesn't know how to win, he never shows up in big games, etc". The people who say that look particularly ridiculous especially when considering that the one constant, when it comes to Capitals playoff hockey, is that Ovechkin always produces. It's just ridiculous how the other allegedly elite players on the team don't produce anything aside from penalty minutes and goals against, and it's AO who takes all the heat for the team losing. This is all compounded when certain players receive nothing but praise for always showing up when it counts when, in reality, if you were to look at their performances in huge games it really isn't the case.

Ovie's been awesome in the playoffs, he always takes his game to the next level. People acting as if that hasn't been the case are simply making fools out of themselves. It's hockey, where the best players will be on the ice for about a third of the game. They can't do it all themselves.
Like what?

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05-25-2010, 08:28 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by MattBradleyKO View Post
these threads are completely ridiculous.
But thats the way it is in Hfboards. People sometimes discuss in negative tone about youre favourite player and its not like Ovie doesent get praise too.. If i remember rightly, you are really eager to bash Crosby in every thread about him.I wonder how you would feel if you would be a Crosby fan, as that guy gets totally unnecessary criticism about 10 times more than Ovechkin.Even not hockey related.

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05-25-2010, 11:29 AM
  #135
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These threads aren't that ridiculous. If Ovechkin truly is the best player on the planet, then you would think that ONE of his three teams this year would not have underachieved. That's not asking a whole lot of the highest paid, so-called best player on the planet.

And for those of you calling hockey a team game: Caps were far and away the best regular-season team. Fail. Russian Olympic team was widely considered the co-best hockey team in the event. Fail. Russian WC team was far and away the most talented team in the event. Fail. 3 different teams, 3 different fails. One captain. It's hard not to see the pattern here.

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05-25-2010, 11:32 AM
  #136
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Originally Posted by hockeydadx2 View Post
These threads aren't that ridiculous. If Ovechkin truly is the best player on the planet, then you would think that ONE of his three teams this year would not have underachieved. That's not asking a whole lot of the highest paid, so-called best player on the planet.

And for those of you calling hockey a team game: Caps were far and away the best regular-season team. Fail. Russian Olympic team was widely considered the co-best hockey team in the event. Fail. Russian WC team was far and away the most talented team in the event. Fail. 3 different teams, 3 different fails. One captain. It's hard not to see the pattern here.
This fail's on you.

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05-25-2010, 11:34 AM
  #137
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Originally Posted by hockeydadx2 View Post
These threads aren't that ridiculous. If Ovechkin truly is the best player on the planet, then you would think that ONE of his three teams this year would not have underachieved. That's not asking a whole lot of the highest paid, so-called best player on the planet.

And for those of you calling hockey a team game: Caps were far and away the best regular-season team. Fail. Russian Olympic team was widely considered the co-best hockey team in the event. Fail. Russian WC team was far and away the most talented team in the event. Fail. 3 different teams, 3 different fails. One captain. It's hard not to see the pattern here.
Ovechkin was not the captain in Vancouver, nor in Germany.

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05-25-2010, 11:40 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Saku11 View Post
But thats the way it is in Hfboards. People sometimes discuss in negative tone about youre favourite player and its not like Ovie doesent get praise too.. If i remember rightly, you are really eager to bash Crosby in every thread about him.I wonder how you would feel if you would be a Crosby fan, as that guy gets totally unnecessary criticism about 10 times more than Ovechkin.Even not hockey related.
true words.

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05-25-2010, 11:53 AM
  #139
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Originally Posted by hockeydadx2 View Post
These threads aren't that ridiculous. If Ovechkin truly is the best player on the planet, then you would think that ONE of his three teams this year would not have underachieved. That's not asking a whole lot of the highest paid, so-called best player on the planet.

And for those of you calling hockey a team game: Caps were far and away the best regular-season team. Fail. Russian Olympic team was widely considered the co-best hockey team in the event. Fail. Russian WC team was far and away the most talented team in the event. Fail. 3 different teams, 3 different fails. One captain. It's hard not to see the pattern here.
This type of thinking is completely devoid of logic. Russia was nowhere near as good as Canada from top to bottom, and they just got beat. The Caps ran into a legendary goaltending performance, and an extremely lucky team, who also happened to topple the defending cup champs in the next round. Sometimes the longshot hits, and if you actually looked at the stats from that series the Caps outplayed the Habs in literally every aspect of hockey. As for the WCs, yea the Russians failed pretty badly there. That's virtually the only one that has any merit, but even then it's still a fail because 1). everyone always says the WCs don't matter at all, that is, until Russia loses so they can criticize AO and 2). They won it the past 2 years including in 2008 with Ovechkin when they didn't have Malkin, Datsyuk, or Gonchar. It's like you intentionally fail to look at the factors in each case, and are instead content to say "nope Ovechkin was on the team and they lost, he *insert foolish HF catch phrase about not knowing how to win, etc*". It just seems willfully ignorant. I can't wait for the Toews>Ovechkin threads after the Hawks win the cup. The reason I always show up in these threads is because the logic fails that are constantly exhibited are absolutely mind numbing, and I try to show light to the blind. I just can't help myself.

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05-25-2010, 11:56 AM
  #140
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Originally Posted by Saku11 View Post
But thats the way it is in Hfboards. People sometimes discuss in negative tone about youre favourite player and its not like Ovie doesent get praise too.. If i remember rightly, you are really eager to bash Crosby in every thread about him.I wonder how you would feel if you would be a Crosby fan, as that guy gets totally unnecessary criticism about 10 times more than Ovechkin.Even not hockey related.
I mean, these people aren't even trying to make a logical argument. Their criticism is on par with "duuurrrr Crysby's a whining, diving crybaby! Malkin's better than him, he won the Conn Smythe"


Last edited by William H Bonney: 05-25-2010 at 02:39 PM. Reason: removed flaming
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05-25-2010, 12:02 PM
  #141
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Actually, Kovalchuk was the captain of the latest losing Russian effort. My mistake.

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05-25-2010, 05:13 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by MattBradleyKO View Post
I mean, these people aren't even trying to make a logical argument. Their criticism is on par with "duuurrrr Crysby's a whining, diving crybaby! Malkin's better than him, he won the Conn Smythe"
Ok i agree that its too harsh to put the blame on the team losses fully on him, because he didnt produce, but it is not like it doesent matter.For example He said himself that he should have scored more, as he had chanses.But i do think its reasonable to say he has been very mediocre in big games in his career (not that he sucks). We all know that he is capable to score 65 goals in a season, yet he has problem finding the net everytime his team would need it most(except game 7 vs Philly in 08 and that one WC goal(?)) and its fair to excpect more from a goal scorer like that.Maybe its just me, but i just think he takes some shortcuts in important games too. Somebody already posted some youtube examples of some of his plays and here is another one,around 2:45. He first loses the puck, then makes a really lazy effort to get it back.It leads to 5-0 and the game is definitely over.


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05-25-2010, 05:20 PM
  #143
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Ovechkin lost the focus of what is important and importance is winning the games. I think he should take at least one year (two would be better) off the National team regardless of his playoff success in the NHL and just focus on his game and improving it. Chasing the goal records in the regular season in a way is exactly the opposite what he needs.

Seriously, this year it was the worst I have seen Ovechkin play. Consider the fact that he was one of the best Russian players in World Cup 2004 I truly feel he has regressed over the last several years. He needs a fresh start.

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05-25-2010, 05:27 PM
  #144
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Uh, why is this thread necessary?

Ovechkin has been choking in big games for years now whether it be national team or NHL. This is old news.

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05-25-2010, 05:28 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by hockeydadx2 View Post
These threads aren't that ridiculous. If Ovechkin truly is the best player on the planet, then you would think that ONE of his three teams this year would not have underachieved. That's not asking a whole lot of the highest paid, so-called best player on the planet.

And for those of you calling hockey a team game: Caps were far and away the best regular-season team. Fail. Russian Olympic team was widely considered the co-best hockey team in the event. Fail. Russian WC team was far and away the most talented team in the event. Fail. 3 different teams, 3 different fails. One captain. It's hard not to see the pattern here.


What pattern? There is no pattern if your evidence is based off 1 year only.
Was it a 'losing year' for Ovechkin? Sure.
Does 1 underachieving year (of team loses) make him any less of a player......of course not.

Your Ovechkin hate knows no boundaries.

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05-25-2010, 05:33 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by MattBradleyKO View Post
I mean, these people aren't even trying to make a logical argument. Their criticism is on par with "duuurrrr Crysby's a whining, diving crybaby! Malkin's better than him, he won the Conn Smythe"
Where Crosby whines to the refs, Ovechkin is lazy on defense and is caught fairly often, in big games, making lazy, careless plays. There is no way of disputing that. He may show up offensively, but in big games he has made several abysmal plays that contribute to his team losing. He's supposed to be the best player in the world, but can't seem to play well when it matters most.

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05-25-2010, 08:05 PM
  #147
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Where Crosby whines to the refs, Ovechkin is lazy on defense and is caught fairly often, in big games, making lazy, careless plays. There is no way of disputing that. He may show up offensively, but in big games he has made several abysmal plays that contribute to his team losing. He's supposed to be the best player in the world, but can't seem to play well when it matters most.
this is just completely wrong, but it's obvious that I'm not going to change your mind. Here's something that is going to blow your mind- aside from Game 7 against the Capitals, Crosby hasn't been any better in "big games" than Ovechkin. What's the difference? Other players have stepped up when he's been absent, that's the bottom line. AO was excellent against Philly in game 7, solid against the Rangers despite not showing up on the scoresheet, mediocre or worse against Pittsburgh despite scoring a goal, and awesome in Game 7 against the Habs where his tying goal was inexplicably disallowed. As for the "lazy and careless plays in big games", which ones are you referring to aside from the Crosby breakaway against Pittsburgh? I don't know where you guys are getting the "bad in big games" nonsense. Aren't the people claiming that also the ones claiming that it's not all about the scoresheet, and how you need to watch the games? I guess that's only when it serves your interests...

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05-25-2010, 08:23 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by MattBradleyKO View Post
this is just completely wrong, but it's obvious that I'm not going to change your mind. Here's something that is going to blow your mind- aside from Game 7 against the Capitals, Crosby hasn't been any better in "big games" than Ovechkin. What's the difference? Other players have stepped up when he's been absent, that's the bottom line. AO was excellent against Philly in game 7, solid against the Rangers despite not showing up on the scoresheet, mediocre or worse against Pittsburgh despite scoring a goal, and awesome in Game 7 against the Habs where his tying goal was inexplicably disallowed. As for the "lazy and careless plays in big games", which ones are you referring to aside from the Crosby breakaway against Pittsburgh? I don't know where you guys are getting the "bad in big games" nonsense. Aren't the people claiming that also the ones claiming that it's not all about the scoresheet, and how you need to watch the games? I guess that's only when it serves your interests...
Besides that gold medal overtime game-winning goal Crosby scored... you always conveniently forget/dismiss the Olympic performances.

As for Ovechkin, I completely agree that he gives 110% on offense. No one is taking that away from him, but as I stated previously he is below average at best on defense. If it was because he was inexperienced I could see him growing his game, but as someone who has watched all his big games and as the highlights posted earlier have shown he just does not even try for some inexplicable reason. Perhaps that is more damning of Boudreau/Bykov than Ovechkin. I posted this before, and I stand by my statements.

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  • Mercurial attitude towards backchecking, which is more of a problem when one is prone to turning over the puck in the offensive zone.
  • Cheating on defensive responsibilities to create offensive chances. This may net one 50+ goals in the NHL regular season, but remains a risky strategy when everything in on the line in the playoffs (NHL or international).
  • Long shifts that involve bursts of activity followed by a lot of coasting on the ice, which as a leader set a poor example for your teammates, especially when the coach is preaching short shifts.
  • He makes poor line changes. This goes with the poor backchecking as he often floats over for a line change after a failed rush rather than attempting to break up the teams counter-rush.
I removed the last point from my original post as I do not want to digress into that argument again.

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05-25-2010, 08:26 PM
  #149
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Simple Reason Russia has faltered? Too much offense, not enough Defense. How many legit 2-way forwards do they have? How many true defensemen? They are playing like the old fashioned Oilers of the 80's, beat them by scoring more.

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05-25-2010, 08:33 PM
  #150
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Besides that gold medal overtime game-winning goal Crosby scored... you always conveniently forget/dismiss the Olympic performances.

As for Ovechkin, I completely agree that he gives 110% on offense. No one is taking that away from him, but as I stated previously he is below average at best on defense. If it was because he was inexperienced I could see him growing his game, but as someone who has watched all his big games and as the highlights posted earlier have shown he just does not even try for some inexplicable reason. Perhaps that is more damning of Boudreau/Bykov than Ovechkin. I posted this before, but I stand by my statements.



I removed the last point from my original post as I do not want to digress into that argument again.
Oh please, Crosby was a complete and total non-factor in the gold medal game, like he had been against Russia and Slovakia as well. A soft goal allowed by Ryan Miller doesn't really change that, just like Ovechkin scoring a goal against Pitt in game 7 doesn't mean he wasn't mediocre or worse in that game. As for your other points, Ovechkin is much better than "below average" defensively simply because he's so dominant offensively. In hockey the best defense really is a good offense, no matter how much people here don't want to believe it. There's a reason why Ovechkin's Corsi numbers are always so good- because when he has the puck the Caps are in the opponent's zone. Finally, I find it extremely hard to believe that you claim to have watched his "big games" and still claim he "doesn't try". I just can't believe it.

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