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Old
05-25-2010, 09:39 PM
  #26
Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Pretty much every expert on Czech hockey in the 1970s thinks that Nedomansky and Martinec were their best players in either order.

Martinec won 4 Golden Stick awards during the 1970s. Hlinka and Novy each one 1. Novy then won 2 after Stastny defected and the other Czech greats retired.

And yes, i realize that Novy won more "scoring titles," but it doesn't seem like that mattered much to viewers of the Czech league.

Question: Does anyone know if the Czech league officially kept track of scoring stats or if they were just pieced together afterward, like from people at SIHR?



And I find it distastefully arrogant to think that we can just look at a stats sheet 30 years later and think that we know better than the people who actually watched these players and who almost universally considered Kharlamov and Martinec the best Soviet and Czech skaters of the era.

Edit: The two of them are, however, the leading scorers of their respective nations in international play by a wide margin. It's possible that the Soviets and Czechs just didn't care much about their domestic leagues.
The stat sheets tell us what they actually accomplished.

To me, it doesn't matter how a guy looks. I only care if he can get the job done.

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05-25-2010, 09:55 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
The stat sheets tell us what they actually accomplished.

To me, it doesn't matter how a guy looks. I only care if he can get the job done.
You are assuming the stats were recorded thoroughly and accurately - we know for a fact that they weren't in the Soviet league in the 1970s; I would assume the same for the Czech league, given the wide disparity between "Best Player" voting and the statistics.

Also, I want to know the source of the statistics. Were they officially recorded by the league or just pieced together from box scores?

You are also assuming the league was competitively balanced, which I wouldn't be so quick to assume.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
Even if they didn't care about their domestic leagues much, that doesn't mean we shouldn't..
What if they treated the domestic league similarly to how we treat preseason? I'm not saying they took them that lightly, but the World Championships and Olympics were what the Soviets and Czechs played for. Were there even playoffs in the Czech league (I honestly don't know)?

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Old
05-25-2010, 10:29 PM
  #28
hungryhungryhippy
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Calling Phaneuf the biggest reach is understandable, but really, it only reflects the unfair bias we have against 2000s players.

Of the 30 or so defensemen taken after Phaneuf (rounds 15-17), how many had a better 3 year peak?

How many have resumes comparable to this...

Dion Phaneuf
1st Team All-Star

Norris Voting: 3rd, 6th, 8th
Goals scored amongst defensemen: 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 10th
PP goals scored amongst defensemen: 1st, 1st, 2nd ()

If Phaneuf had played in an era where everyone of us didn't watch him every night and talk about him on the internet, he would be picked in the 10th-12th round. All the anecdotes about him would be full of hyperbolic statements like "he was a dominant, physical, beast" and "one of the toughest and most intimidating defensemen" and "threw bone-crushing open ice hip checks" and "had a hard shot" and was a "good offensive defenseman" and etc... with no mention of irresponsible defensive play (Pelletier and LOH barely even mention negative things like that in the most extreme cases).

In fact, knowing some of the people here (and having seen them use this reasoning before), Phaneuf's physical dominance and PIMs would suggest that he was really good defensively or something.

Not to mention, if he played in a much older era, those three top-2 finishes would be enough to convince most people that he was the best PP quarterback in the league during his 3 year peak, and probably one of the best throughout his career.


Last edited by hungryhungryhippy: 05-25-2010 at 10:37 PM.
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05-25-2010, 11:15 PM
  #29
Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
You are assuming the stats were recorded thoroughly and accurately - we know for a fact that they weren't in the Soviet league in the 1970s; I would assume the same for the Czech league, given the wide disparity between "Best Player" voting and the statistics.

Also, I want to know the source of the statistics. Were they officially recorded by the league or just pieced together from box scores?

You are also assuming the league was competitively balanced, which I wouldn't be so quick to assume.
And you are assuming the votes for certain awards were recorded accurately. There could be mistakes in both stats and votes, but unless they are proven to be wrong, you kind of have to assume they are accurate.

I assume both the stats and the votes are accurate, and from that assumption I draw my conclusion that the voters clearly preferred the players who performed with style.

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05-25-2010, 11:17 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryhungryhippy View Post
Calling Phaneuf the biggest reach is understandable, but really, it only reflects the unfair bias we have against 2000s players.

Of the 30 or so defensemen taken after Phaneuf (rounds 15-17), how many had a better 3 year peak?

How many have resumes comparable to this...

Dion Phaneuf
1st Team All-Star

Norris Voting: 3rd, 6th, 8th
Goals scored amongst defensemen: 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 10th
PP goals scored amongst defensemen: 1st, 1st, 2nd ()

If Phaneuf had played in an era where everyone of us didn't watch him every night and talk about him on the internet, he would be picked in the 10th-12th round. All the anecdotes about him would be full of hyperbolic statements like "he was a dominant, physical, beast" and "one of the toughest and most intimidating defensemen" and "threw bone-crushing open ice hip checks" and "had a hard shot" and was a "good offensive defenseman" and etc... with no mention of irresponsible defensive play (Pelletier and LOH barely even mention negative things like that in the most extreme cases).

In fact, knowing some of the people here (and having seen them use this reasoning before), Phaneuf's physical dominance and PIMs would suggest that he was really good defensively or something.

Not to mention, if he played in a much older era, those three top-2 finishes would be enough to convince most people that he was the best PP quarterback in the league during his 3 year peak, and probably one of the best throughout his career.
Does anyone use PIMs as proof of defense? It's proof of "toughness," but I don't know about defense.

But I agree with your bigger point. Phaneuf has a better "on paper" resume than a lot of older defensemen picked a long time before him.

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Old
05-26-2010, 12:26 AM
  #31
Dreakmur
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Does anyone use PIMs as proof of defense? It's proof of "toughness," but I don't know about defense.

But I agree with your bigger point. Phaneuf has a better "on paper" resume than a lot of older defensemen picked a long time before him.
some people assume that defensemen with high PIM totals were rough and tough in their own end.... and connect the dots...... they assume he was good defensively

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05-26-2010, 01:29 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
To be honest, I don't get the Martinec love. Yeah, he was feared by the Soviets in international play, but do we really know the full story behind that. Was that only a fear that was perceived by writers that watched? Because the Czechs then getting blown out by 6 goals after Martinec goes down tells me that he was their ONLY weapon.. his domestic accomplishments are also very underwhelming compared to guys who were drafted much, much later (Hlinka, Novy, etc.).
So now Martinec - when finally getting some recognition - is suddenly overrated?

How are his domestic accomplishments "very underwhelming" compared to Ivan Hlinka???

Martinec: 4 Golden Hockey Sticks (i.e. best player award)*, 343 goals in 539 games
Hlinka: 1 Golden Hockey Stick, 347 goals in 544 games (wow, much more impressive! )

* it is not totally clear to me, though, how much international play affected the voting - or if it affected at all

I don't know if the assist data is available anywhere, but I doubt it would change things that much; Martinec was a very good playmaker as well.

Internationally, all 3 played for the same team around the same time (= Czechoslovak national team, 1970s, of course), and Martinec's resume (awards, numbers) is easily better than Hlinka's or Novy's. I think the only skater who might beat him [internationally] is Vaclav Nedomansky.

In Vladislav Tretiak's book (the one written around 1978), he mentions Martinec and his linemate Bohuslav Stastny numerous times; I don't recall him saying anything about either Novy or Hlinka.

Novy's Czechoslovak league numbers are definitely more impressive than Martinec's, but a lot can be contributed to the fact that Novy played for better team(s). In 1979, Martinec finally won the goal-scoring title, when he was arguably slightly past his prime. Is it just coincidence that he played for Dukla Jihlava -instead of Tesla Pardubice - that season?

BTW, when did the Czechs got "blown out by 6 goals after Martinec goes down"? What are you referring to?


Last edited by VMBM: 05-26-2010 at 07:18 AM.
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Old
05-26-2010, 07:21 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
So now Martinec - when finally getting some recognition - is suddenly overrated?

How are his domestic accomphishments "very underwhelming" compared to Ivan Hlinka???

Martinec: 4 Golden Hockey Sticks (i.e. best player award)*, 343 goals in 539 games
Hlinka: 1 Golden Hockey Stick, 347 goals in 544 games (wow, much more impressive! )

* it is not totally clear to me, though, how much international play affected the voting - or if it affected at all

I don't know if the assist data is available anywhere, but I doubt it would change things that much; Martinec was a very good playmaker as well.

Internationally, all 3 played for the same team around the same time (= Czechoslovak national team, 1970s, of course), and Martinec's resume (awards, numbers) is easily better than Hlinka's or Novy's. I think the only skater who might beat him [internationally] is Vaclav Nedomansky.

In Vladislav Tretiak's book (the one written around 1978), he mentions Martinec and his linemate Bohuslav Stastny numerous times; I don't recall him saying anything about either Novy or Hlinka.

Novy's Czechoslovak league numbers are definitely more impressive than Martinec's, but a lot can be contributed to the fact that Novy played for better team(s). In 1979, Martinec finally won the goal-scoring title, when he was arguably slightly past his prime. Is it just coincidence that he played for Dukla Jihlava -instead of Tesla Pardubice - that season?

BTW, when did the Czechs got "blown out by 6 goals after Martinec goes down"? What are you referring to?
The last part, I'm referring to a quote made by TDMM in one of his playoff series.

Hlinka and those other guys I mentioned had better overall statistical placements in their domestic leagues, ESPECIALLY Novy. In fact, in Novy's 59 goal year, only two of his teammates placed anywhere NEAR the top-20 in assists, Eduard Novak and Frantisek Pospisil. Novy actually dished the puck out more than either of them (he led the league in assists, too). I don't think it had anything to do with the team he was on - in that single year, he was likely one of the most dominating players in the world. He played in the Canada Cup that year and led his team with 8 points in 7 games - no one else had more than 5, including Martinec. In fact, Martinec, who had one very dominant international event with 20 points in 10 games, and another with 16 points in 10 games, never showed quite that dominance in any other event he was in. A few where he placed at about a point per game, but also many where he was far below. There is another player who dubiously has this same kind of resume, and people think he was the best player their country ever produced - Valeri Kharlamov. I don't think it's a coincidence that both guys were known for flash and dash, yet had multiple MVP finishes that cannot be explained by the stats. Both were underwhelming domestically compared to their peers. Both had one very, very dominant international event, and a few others that were also very good.

Taking a closer look at the Golden Stick award, Martinec won his Stick in 1973 probably because he dominated the Czech league that year - he was underwhelming in international play that year (5 points in 8 games in WEC-A, then 6 points in 12 games in the Czech playoffs, whereas he got 49 points in 34 games in the league play). This shows that the Golden Stick voting did indeed look at domestic play.

In 75, it is not immediately obvious why he won the award. The stats show "good" numbers, but nothing dominant.

In 76 was his ridiculous WEC-A year that probably single handedly won him the award. Plus, he was also good in the Olympics that year.

In 79, he led the league in goals and had a very dominant year in general, then scored 8 points in 7 games in the WEC-A. Again, probably another stick won by domestic play. Hm...

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Old
05-26-2010, 08:54 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryhungryhippy View Post
Calling Phaneuf the biggest reach is understandable, but really, it only reflects the unfair bias we have against 2000s players.

Of the 30 or so defensemen taken after Phaneuf (rounds 15-17), how many had a better 3 year peak?

How many have resumes comparable to this...

Dion Phaneuf
1st Team All-Star

Norris Voting: 3rd, 6th, 8th
Goals scored amongst defensemen: 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 10th
PP goals scored amongst defensemen: 1st, 1st, 2nd ()

If Phaneuf had played in an era where everyone of us didn't watch him every night and talk about him on the internet, he would be picked in the 10th-12th round. All the anecdotes about him would be full of hyperbolic statements like "he was a dominant, physical, beast" and "one of the toughest and most intimidating defensemen" and "threw bone-crushing open ice hip checks" and "had a hard shot" and was a "good offensive defenseman" and etc... with no mention of irresponsible defensive play (Pelletier and LOH barely even mention negative things like that in the most extreme cases).

In fact, knowing some of the people here (and having seen them use this reasoning before), Phaneuf's physical dominance and PIMs would suggest that he was really good defensively or something.

Not to mention, if he played in a much older era, those three top-2 finishes would be enough to convince most people that he was the best PP quarterback in the league during his 3 year peak, and probably one of the best throughout his career.
It's a good thing that we know a lot more about Phaneuf than his basic stats. It allows us to rate him more accurately. For example, we know that in Calgary he was usually the 4th or 5th defenceman on the penalty kill. We know that in Calgary* he was never the coach's first choice to go against the other team's top lines. Based on the quality of competition metrics at behindthenet.ca, he was the 4th or 5th defenceman for that role as well. During his rookie season - which forms a significant part of his on-paper resume - his coach did everything he could to keep him away from the other team's top forwards. If you remember the Calgary-Anaheim series from that year, he basically never faced Teemu Selanne at home, but Selanne ate him up on the road.

I didn't agree with his selection at all as a first team all-star in 2008. I thought Gonchar and Markov were better on the power play (Phaneuf's biggest strength), and were also top penalty killers and played against the other team's best forwards, unlike Phaneuf. I think some of the voters overrated his physical play.

All this is to say that, in an all-time situation, he could play the power play but his resume is very, very weak everywhere else. It's also a cautionary tale against putting too much weight on points and penalty minutes for defencemen of the distant past. Just because it's the only statistical information doesn't mean it's a good idea to put a lot of weight on it.

On the other hand, defencemen from many years ago would have been more strongly selected for defensive play than they are today. With fewer players on each team, less emphasis on special teams, and less matchup-oriented coaching, there wasn't much room for a limited player like Phaneuf in his rookie season. If you go back to the days where players played almost all 60 minutes, you probably won't find many one-dimensional defenders, especially on good teams.

*For you Leaf fans, it appears that he was used as the team's #1 defenceman on the PK and in matchups at even strength in Toronto this year. We'll see how he does in his new role going forward.

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05-26-2010, 09:09 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
The last part, I'm referring to a quote made by TDMM in one of his playoff series.

Hlinka and those other guys I mentioned had better overall statistical placements in their domestic leagues, ESPECIALLY Novy. In fact, in Novy's 59 goal year, only two of his teammates placed anywhere NEAR the top-20 in assists, Eduard Novak and Frantisek Pospisil. Novy actually dished the puck out more than either of them (he led the league in assists, too). I don't think it had anything to do with the team he was on - in that single year, he was likely one of the most dominating players in the world. He played in the Canada Cup that year and led his team with 8 points in 7 games - no one else had more than 5, including Martinec. In fact, Martinec, who had one very dominant international event with 20 points in 10 games, and another with 16 points in 10 games, never showed quite that dominance in any other event he was in. A few where he placed at about a point per game, but also many where he was far below. There is another player who dubiously has this same kind of resume, and people think he was the best player their country ever produced - Valeri Kharlamov. I don't think it's a coincidence that both guys were known for flash and dash, yet had multiple MVP finishes that cannot be explained by the stats. Both were underwhelming domestically compared to their peers. Both had one very, very dominant international event, and a few others that were also very good.
Bolded. Where did you get that from? Martinec had 7 points (3 goals and 4 assists) in 7 games in the 1976 Canada Cup. Here are a couple of links to back that up:

http://www.rauzulusstreet.com/hockey...6canadacup.htm (scroll down)
http://www.hockeycanada.ca/multimedi...an_scoring.pdf

I also have a Finnish hockey book that has the box-scores for all the '76 CC games which also proves this (Martinec had 3 assists in 3 games vs. Canada, 1 goal and 1 assist vs. USSR, 1 goal vs. FIN, 1 goal vs. SWE). So Novy had only 1 point edge.

I have also seen all the 3 CSSR vs. Canada games plus the USSR game, and Novy ain't outperforming Martinec that much, despite his more timely goal-scoring.

Still I'd like to hear how Hlinka was so much better in domestic play than Martinec. Their numbers are almost identical. I think only Novy and Nedomansky (about the same amount of goals but in far lesser games played) truly beat him domestically, numbers-wise. However, Martinec has the clear edge in international competition, when compared to Hlinka and Novy. Like I said elsewhere, though, it is 1974-78 when Martinec seemed to be clearly at his best (internationally at least). Stats-wise, 'good' performances also in the 1972 WC and to a lesser extent, 1979 WC.

BTW, Kharlamov won only 1 MVP in the Soviet league (1973). Some sources say that he also tied with Maltsev in 1972, but I believe Maltsev had more #1 votes, so he probably deserved it. Anyway, it doesn't look like Kharlamov was so loved by the voters in Soviet Union after all.

And I don't even know about the Martinec-Kharlamov comparison. To me Martinec was more like another CCCP player Vladimir Vikulov but definitely faster and more fiery; still not overly flashy a la Kharlamov, Perreault, Lafleur... Martinec was an excellent stick-handler (very soft hands), but as a skater, I would use words like 'good' or 'strong' rather than 'flashy' or 'super fast'... certainly not THAT much more flashy than Novy or Hlinka (so that it would have been the reason the voters favoured Martinec over them).

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05-26-2010, 11:01 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Bolded. Where did you get that from? Martinec had 7 points (3 goals and 4 assists) in 7 games in the 1976 Canada Cup. Here are a couple of links to back that up:

http://www.rauzulusstreet.com/hockey...6canadacup.htm (scroll down)
http://www.hockeycanada.ca/multimedi...an_scoring.pdf

I also have a Finnish hockey book that has the box-scores for all the '76 CC games which also proves this (Martinec had 3 assists in 3 games vs. Canada, 1 goal and 1 assist vs. USSR, 1 goal vs. FIN, 1 goal vs. SWE). So Novy had only 1 point edge.

I have also seen all the 3 CSSR vs. Canada games plus the USSR game, and Novy ain't outperforming Martinec that much, despite his more timely goal-scoring.

Still I'd like to hear how Hlinka was so much better in domestic play than Martinec. Their numbers are almost identical. I think only Novy and Nedomansky (about the same amount of goals but in far lesser games played) truly beat him domestically, numbers-wise. However, Martinec has the clear edge in international competition, when compared to Hlinka and Novy. Like I said elsewhere, though, it is 1974-78 when Martinec seemed to be clearly at his best (internationally at least). Stats-wise, 'good' performances also in the 1972 WC and to a lesser extent, 1979 WC.

BTW, Kharlamov won only 1 MVP in the Soviet league (1973). Some sources say that he also tied with Maltsev in 1972, but I believe Maltsev had more #1 votes, so he probably deserved it. Anyway, it doesn't look like Kharlamov was so loved by the voters in Soviet Union after all.

And I don't even know about the Martinec-Kharlamov comparison. To me Martinec was more like another CCCP player Vladimir Vikulov but definitely faster and more fiery; still not overly flashy a la Kharlamov, Perreault, Lafleur... Martinec was an excellent stick-handler (very soft hands), but as a skater, I would use words like 'good' or 'strong' rather than 'flashy' or 'super fast'... certainly not THAT much more flashy than Novy or Hlinka (so that it would have been the reason the voters favoured Martinec over them).
SIHR has Martinec at 5 points in 5 games.

The Kharlamov thing was more along the lines of what the "common opinion" is, not directly related to stats or anything like that.

Martinec was consistently good, but what does that tell us? That was to be expected - he was supposedly their best player internationally. But he only dominated once, arguably twice.

I'll talk more when I get home.

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05-26-2010, 12:09 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
Even if they didn't care about their domestic leagues much, that doesn't mean we shouldn't..
That may be true, but TDMM and VMBM a lot more right than you are right now.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Does anyone use PIMs as proof of defense? It's proof of "toughness," but I don't know about defense.
God, I hope no one does. That would be a major step backwards, particularly when I have shown that anyone willing to do a little work can find information on any player using Google News.

Quote:
But I agree with your bigger point. Phaneuf has a better "on paper" resume than a lot of older defensemen picked a long time before him.
Yes and no. Better peak, sure. Compare his best two years (accomplishments only) to solid #4 guys like Jim Watson and Jim Neilson, and you might say he had a better peak. But the fact that his entire career is five years long should still be considered too. In Watson/Neilson's 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th-best seasons, they were still excellent, if not quite elite, NHL defensemen. That's still resume-building.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
some people assume that defensemen with high PIM totals were rough and tough in their own end.... and connect the dots...... they assume he was good defensively
Just no.

I hope you're not saying you are "some people"

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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
It's a good thing that we know a lot more about Phaneuf than his basic stats. It allows us to rate him more accurately.
Bingo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
The last part, I'm referring to a quote made by TDMM in one of his playoff series.

Hlinka and those other guys I mentioned had better overall statistical placements in their domestic leagues, ESPECIALLY Novy. In fact, in Novy's 59 goal year, only two of his teammates placed anywhere NEAR the top-20 in assists, Eduard Novak and Frantisek Pospisil. Novy actually dished the puck out more than either of them (he led the league in assists, too). I don't think it had anything to do with the team he was on - in that single year, he was likely one of the most dominating players in the world. He played in the Canada Cup that year and led his team with 8 points in 7 games - no one else had more than 5, including Martinec. In fact, Martinec, who had one very dominant international event with 20 points in 10 games, and another with 16 points in 10 games, never showed quite that dominance in any other event he was in. A few where he placed at about a point per game, but also many where he was far below. There is another player who dubiously has this same kind of resume, and people think he was the best player their country ever produced - Valeri Kharlamov. I don't think it's a coincidence that both guys were known for flash and dash, yet had multiple MVP finishes that cannot be explained by the stats. Both were underwhelming domestically compared to their peers. Both had one very, very dominant international event, and a few others that were also very good.

Taking a closer look at the Golden Stick award, Martinec won his Stick in 1973 probably because he dominated the Czech league that year - he was underwhelming in international play that year (5 points in 8 games in WEC-A, then 6 points in 12 games in the Czech playoffs, whereas he got 49 points in 34 games in the league play). This shows that the Golden Stick voting did indeed look at domestic play.

In 75, it is not immediately obvious why he won the award. The stats show "good" numbers, but nothing dominant.

In 76 was his ridiculous WEC-A year that probably single handedly won him the award. Plus, he was also good in the Olympics that year.

In 79, he led the league in goals and had a very dominant year in general, then scored 8 points in 7 games in the WEC-A. Again, probably another stick won by domestic play. Hm...
Dude, you really should defer to the guys who were there. VMBM saw these guys play, on a regular basis.

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05-26-2010, 02:47 PM
  #38
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This is the part of my earlier post that jarek was referring to, when I brought up how the Soviets deliberately took out Martinec:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus-74 View Post
Need to go through this all over again?

The Russians really shouldn´t get too high and mighty as the Soviet team did similar things on the ice. I "remember" Vladimir Martinec being brutally taken out (by defenseman Tsygankov) in the key Czechoslovakia game in the ´74 World Championships; and that really wasn´t the only time...
From a thread on Clarke's attack on Kharlamov: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=315349

Quote:
In 1974, the competition was much closer as USSR need to beat Czechoslovakia in the final game to win the gold. USSR was behind 0:1 after the first period. During the intermission a top official from the Russian hockey federation entered the locker room. Bobrov coldly asked him to close the door. From the outside. The official turned red and left the room in anger. In the 2nd period, USSR intimidated the Czechs by playing incredibly hard. The Soviet players had completely abandoned their old hockey style, and the rink was literally scattered with blood. The biggest Czech star, Vladimir Martinec was injured and USSR quickly scored four unanswered goals to win the gold.

The game was bad prestige for USSR
http://forums.internationalhockey.ne...ead.php?t=4201

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Old
05-26-2010, 02:55 PM
  #39
TheDevilMadeMe
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VMBM, do you know why Novy is shown so little respect in his home country? Here's a list that's been floating around of the best Czech players of the century as voted on by Czech experts:

rank name points
1. DOMINIK HAŠEK 472
2. JAROMÍR JÁGR 357
3. VLADIMÍR ZÁBRODSKÝ 240
4. VLADIMÍR MARTINEC 235
5. IVAN HLINKA 181
6. VLASTIMIL BUBNÍK 160
7. JAN SUCHÝ 154
8. JIŘÍ HOLÍK 136
9. JOSEF MALEČEK 121
10. VÁCLAV NEDOMANSKÝ 98
11. Jiří Holeček 97
12. Bohumil Modrý 93

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=1...&postcount=208 (is one of the places it can be found).

Zabrodsky is basically the Czech Bobrov, so I can understand his placement in a Czech-only list. And Big Ned probably gets minus points for defecting.

By why Hlinka so high over Novy? Why no Novy in the top 12?

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05-26-2010, 03:00 PM
  #40
VMBM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
This is the part of my earlier post that jarek was referring to, when I brought up how the Soviets deliberately took out Martinec:



From a thread on Clarke's attack on Kharlamov: http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=315349



http://forums.internationalhockey.ne...ead.php?t=4201
Okay. In that game, the Soviets beat Czechoslovakia actually by a score of 3-1, though (1974 WHC, 2nd game between CSSR and USSR):
http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_ga...sp?gm_id=gm406

And here's the 1st USSR-CSSR game from the same WCH (the biggest loss for the Soviets in World Championships ever?):
http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_ga...sp?gm_id=gm401

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05-26-2010, 03:03 PM
  #41
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Okay. In that game, the Soviets beat Czechoslovakia actually by a score of 3-1, though (1974 WHC, 2nd game between CSSR and USSR):
http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_ga...sp?gm_id=gm406

And here's the 1st USSR-CSSR game from the same WCH (the biggest loss for the Soviets in World Championships ever?):
http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_ga...sp?gm_id=gm401
I'll take it that the "four unanswered goals" part wasn't entirely accurate.

It's a shame that the best English language sources for details on Czechoslovakian hockey are internet forums. There really needs to be a Czech version of chidlosvki.

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05-26-2010, 03:17 PM
  #42
VanIslander
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Novy should never be drafted before Hlinka.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
And Big Ned probably gets minus points for defecting.
BECAUSE HE DEFECTED FROM A SOVIET OCCUPATION THAT THE CZECHS HATED?

Zabrodsky is suspected of treason and espionage in turning Czechs over to the Soviets when his teammates were sent to the Gulag but he wasn't.

Ned is probably overvalued here on HfBoards because he played in the NHL! No minus points for defecting.

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05-26-2010, 03:33 PM
  #43
VMBM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
VMBM, do you know why Novy is shown so little respect in his home country? Here's a list that's been floating around of the best Czech players of the century as voted on by Czech experts:

rank name points
1. DOMINIK HAŠEK 472
2. JAROMÍR JÁGR 357
3. VLADIMÍR ZÁBRODSKÝ 240
4. VLADIMÍR MARTINEC 235
5. IVAN HLINKA 181
6. VLASTIMIL BUBNÍK 160
7. JAN SUCHÝ 154
8. JIŘÍ HOLÍK 136
9. JOSEF MALEČEK 121
10. VÁCLAV NEDOMANSKÝ 98
11. Jiří Holeček 97
12. Bohumil Modrý 93

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=1...&postcount=208 (is one of the places it can be found).

Zabrodsky is basically the Czech Bobrov, so I can understand his placement in a Czech-only list. And Big Ned probably gets minus points for defecting.

By why Hlinka so high over Novy? Why no Novy in the top 12?
To tell you the truth, I have no idea. I've often wondered that myself. I mean, I don't think he was quite in the same class as Nedomansky or Martinec, but IMO he certainly should be on the Hlinka/Suchy level - if not higher.

One thing might be that Novy never was quite seen as a true threat by the Soviets a la Martinec or Nedomansky (and to maybe lesser extent; Hlinka, Stastny brothers etc.), and he wasn't the one who was mostly responsible for those wins in the 1976 and 1977 World Championships. Of course, especially since 1968, beating the loathed Soviets was a huge deal for the Czechoslovaks - players as well as fans.

Still, as an 'outsider' at least, it's hard to ignore Novy's domestic numbers; they are so much higher than anyone else's - even if he played for the 'Czech Habs' (Poldi Kladno; numerous championships in the mid/late '70s) and more games than probably any other player.

And that list is a bit of a joke, anyway. Yeah, defected or not, Nedomansky should be in the top 5, if not in the top 3. I find it very strange that they should still hold a grudge against him after all these years. Or is it that Nedo was actually Slovak (I mean, his parents were, I believe)?

And Jiri Holecek at #11, what the hell? (it's not like the voters don't appreciate goalies, since Hasek is so clearly number 1).

Never heard of Bohumil Modry, I have to admit.

Edit: Then again, Nedomansky didn't seem to be that appreciated when he played in the Czechoslovak league, either. Despite his scoring titles, no Golden Hockey Sticks. Maybe he was considered 'just a goal-scorer' or something?


Last edited by VMBM: 05-26-2010 at 03:56 PM. Reason: (temporary) blindness
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Old
05-26-2010, 03:58 PM
  #44
jarek
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Bohumil Modry actually had some very, very good seasons as a Czech.

VMBM, did you ignore the entirety of my post when I talked about Novy's 59 goal season? He was also the first in the league in assists, 2 of his teammates were in the top-10, and no one else even close to them. It was a 3 man show, at least that year.

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05-26-2010, 05:37 PM
  #45
hungryhungryhippy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
It's a good thing that we know a lot more about Phaneuf than his basic stats. It allows us to rate him more accurately.
Right on, but is that not a disadvantage for modern-era players? How many players taken before Phaneuf (with weaker resumes) likely had their own share of problems and glaring weaknesses that we just don't really know too much about or consider?

Like I said before, the only reason Phaneuf doesn't go in the 15th round (or higher) is because we're all personally familiar with his career, and watch him all the time. Can the same be said for most of the other defensemen picked before him?

Also, on another point... you said in your post that you disagreed with Phaneuf's FAST selection, and so do I, but I also disagree with Ovechkin's Hart nomination this year, I disagree with Ovechkin winning the Hart Trophy last year, I disagree with Brodeur's Vezina nomination this year, and so much more....

But 50 years from now, if this is still happening, the people that are doing these ATDs won't know that. They'll assume that all the award and trophy voting was spot on, much like we do now with players from every era except... *drumroll*.... the current era.


Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Yes and no. Better peak, sure. Compare his best two years (accomplishments only) to solid #4 guys like Jim Watson and Jim Neilson, and you might say he had a better peak. But the fact that his entire career is five years long should still be considered too. In Watson/Neilson's 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th-best seasons, they were still excellent, if not quite elite, NHL defensemen. That's still resume-building.
Yeah, but Neilson and Watson went in the 10th and 13th rounds. People in this thread have said that Phaneuf in the 15th round was the "biggest reach in the draft".

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05-26-2010, 06:19 PM
  #46
seventieslord
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Quote:
Yeah, but Neilson and Watson went in the 10th and 13th rounds. People in this thread have said that Phaneuf in the 15th round was the "biggest reach in the draft".
I haven't looked closely enough to draw my own conclusions yet, but considering I see Phaneuf as an ATD #7 at this point, taking him in the 15th round might be the winner.

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Old
05-26-2010, 11:01 PM
  #47
BillyShoe1721
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Well, look what I started.

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Old
05-27-2010, 12:36 AM
  #48
VMBM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
Bohumil Modry actually had some very, very good seasons as a Czech.
So? I just said that I've never heard of him, not that he doesn't deserve it. I mainly know about the Czechoslovak hockey of the 1970s.

Can you give your own opinion of that list?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
VMBM, did you ignore the entirety of my post when I talked about Novy's 59 goal season? He was also the first in the league in assists, 2 of his teammates were in the top-10, and no one else even close to them. It was a 3 man show, at least that year.
Did you ignore my post when I talked about how Martinec won the goal-scoring title when he finally played for a better team in 1979 (or at least part of the season)? Or that he has a clear edge in international play compared to Novy and Hlinka, when all played for the same team around the same time? Or that he wasn't really that much flashier than either of them?

So Novy was brilliant that year, what do you want me to say? Obviously the voters took notice, and gave him the GHS - his only one during the Seventies. But are you suggesting that he didn't have ANY advantage that he played for a clearly better team than Martinec? And are you claiming that he was the sole reason for the team's success throughout those years?

Edit:
And I'm still waiting for you to show how Martinec's accomplishments in the Czechoslovak league were "very underwhelming" compared to Ivan Hlinka.


Last edited by VMBM: 05-27-2010 at 01:22 AM.
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Old
05-27-2010, 02:01 AM
  #49
Hedberg
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My ATD10 AA draft bio of Bohumil Modry (it's one of the hockey stories I find most interesting):

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=1...&postcount=109

An interview with another one of the Czech players imprisoned:
http://www.politicalprisoners.eu/gus...ife-story.html


Last edited by Hedberg: 05-27-2010 at 03:15 AM.
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Old
05-27-2010, 06:41 AM
  #50
Nalyd Psycho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hedberg View Post
My ATD10 AA draft bio of Bohumil Modry (it's one of the hockey stories I find most interesting):

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=1...&postcount=109

An interview with another one of the Czech players imprisoned:
http://www.politicalprisoners.eu/gus...ife-story.html
What happened to him is one of the greatest crimes in sports history.

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