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Old
05-28-2010, 03:53 PM
  #76
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
Interestingly enough, Petrov had an even more dominant scoring performance in a World Championship than Kharlamov had at the Olympics. 34 points in 10 games in 72-73.
I don't know the exact details but it's very likely that was skewed by a couple games against a really weak country.

And I wouldn't say someone necessarily outperformed someone else just because he had 10 points against Norway and the other guy had 3. Or sat out that game.

I wish we had boxscores available for these games, so that "adjusted" international stats could be built, based only on numbers from best-on-best games between the top-6 hockey nations.

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05-28-2010, 03:55 PM
  #77
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I doubt Petrov's numbers are any more 'wrong' than Mikhailov's or Kharlamov's.
I agree with this. Although the stats may have been poorly kept originally, they've been maintained and compiled in earnest, and if one guy averaged more over the long-term (500 games is very long-term) then he was almost certainly the better playmaker.

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05-28-2010, 04:27 PM
  #78
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In the 7 seasons from 72-73 to 78-79, Petrov led the USSR league in assists 5 times, and finished 2nd once.

In the 73 WC, the USSR scored 100 goals in 10 games. 55 of those came in 3 games vs West Germany (17 & 18) and Poland (20). In those 3 games, Petrov scored 9 (2, 2, 5) goals, Kharlamov 4 (1, 1, 2), and Mikhailov 10 (3, 0, 7). That leaves Petrov 9 goals in the rest of the games, Kharlamov 5, and Mikhailov 6.

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05-28-2010, 04:52 PM
  #79
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I think Petrov is definitely a step below Kharlamov and Mikhailov. I've said in the past that if not for Kharlamov and Mikhailov, Petrov would have been just another Russian. Perhaps I need to rethink that, but nothing will sway my opinion that both Kharlamov and Mikhailov were better players than Petrov. It would take some really crazy evidence for me to change my mind.

Anyways, I'm pretty sure Petrov was much more biased to goal scoring than playmaking. SIHR stats have him at 370 goals and 343 assists, and I'm fairly certain his goal scoring placements were better than his assists placements. Kharlamov I believe was the primary playmaker of that line with his rushes. Was Petrov a competent playmaker? Probably. But I don't think he was more important as a playmaker than Kharlamov. This should make sense, though, unless we're really overrating Kharlamov that badly.

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05-28-2010, 06:07 PM
  #80
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Anyways, I'm pretty sure Petrov was much more biased to goal scoring than playmaking. SIHR stats have him at 370 goals and 343 assists, and I'm fairly certain his goal scoring placements were better than his assists placements.
Better than being the five-time leader?

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05-28-2010, 07:06 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Better than being the five-time leader?
Let's find out:

1, 1, 2, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8, 9, 9, 10, 12

Petrov goal scoring record.

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05-28-2010, 10:44 PM
  #82
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Assists in the Soviet league are much like in the early days of the NHL, more goals than assists. During the 14 years Kharlamov played in the USSR, 67-68 to 80-81, he had more goals than Petrov in 4 seasons, more assists once (with one tie), and more points 4 times.

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05-28-2010, 11:45 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
In the 7 seasons from 72-73 to 78-79, Petrov led the USSR league in assists 5 times, and finished 2nd once.

In the 73 WC, the USSR scored 100 goals in 10 games. 55 of those came in 3 games vs West Germany (17 & 18) and Poland (20). In those 3 games, Petrov scored 9 (2, 2, 5) goals, Kharlamov 4 (1, 1, 2), and Mikhailov 10 (3, 0, 7). That leaves Petrov 9 goals in the rest of the games, Kharlamov 5, and Mikhailov 6.
It was actually 4 games; 2 against West Germany (17-1 & 18-2) and 2 vs. Poland (9-3 & 20-0). All 6 teams (in the 1973 WCs they were USSR, SWE, CSSR, FIN, W. GER and POL) played twice against each other.

USSR beat Sweden (silver medallists, team that had pre-NHL Börje Salming BTW) 6-1 and 6-4. In the games, Petrov scored 3, Mikhailov 2 and Kharlamov 1.
USSR beat Czecoslovakia (bronze medallists) 3-2 and 4-2. In those games, Mikhailov scored 2, Kharlamov 2, and Petrov 0.

"Troika Petrova" definitely feasted on poor teams, but they were clearly the leading players against the toughest opposition too.

Some people look only at USSR's 100-18 record from the 1973 World Championships and claim that it is the best Soviet team ever. IMO much more important than the overall goal differential is how they did against their main rivals, and in 1973, 1 Sweden game and both CSSR games at least seemed fairly competitive. However, in the 1979 WC, for example, they beat Czechoslovakia 11-1 and 6-1, Sweden 11-3 and 9-3, Canada 5-2 and 9-2 etc.

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05-28-2010, 11:46 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Assists in the Soviet league are much like in the early days of the NHL, more goals than assists. During the 14 years Kharlamov played in the USSR, 67-68 to 80-81, he had more goals than Petrov in 4 seasons, more assists once (with one tie), and more points 4 times.
They didn't count secondary assists, I believe?

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05-29-2010, 12:05 AM
  #85
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To make things clear, I don't think Petrov was better than Kharlamov or Mikhailov either. I used to place him above Mikhailov, but after seeing more and more games from the Seventies, I think Mikhailov usually was a little better/more visible. And since there isn't much difference in their numbers...
I do believe, though, that post-1976, both Petrov AND Mikhailov were more important players than Kharlamov, which is sort of backed up by the awards/all-star selections in the Soviet league and WCs; the only noticeable one for Kharlamov post-1976 is the 1978 all-star berth in the Soviet league.

One thing that interests/puzzles me is their respective goal-scoring stats versus Czechoslovakia. In another thread, I already mentioned this.

Petrov's, Kharlamov's and Mikhailov's record vs. Czechoslovakia:

Petrov GP: 53 G: 33
Kharlamov GP: 54 G: 24
Mikhailov GP: 57 G: 21

So Petrov was clearly the most effective goal-scorer vs. CSSR, for some reason.


Last edited by VMBM: 05-29-2010 at 12:12 AM.
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05-29-2010, 12:23 AM
  #86
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Do you have any idea why Petrov is basically nonexistent in voting for Soviet player of the year, despite his gaudy stats? I assumed it was because he was a guy who basically dominated the offensive zone but let Kharlamov control the play up ice and Mikhailov do the dirty work. But you really are painting a different picture. (I have only watched a couple of games with the KPM line, many fewer than you).

I also thought the general consensus among Russian hockey fans was that Maltsev was a clear step up from Petrov. The "Soviet player of the year" voting would tend to agree (where Maltsev is barely behind Kharlamov and Mikhailov but well ahead of Petrov). And yet Petrov is probably better statistically, and you are saying that he was just as important to his line as Kharlamov and Mikhailov.

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05-29-2010, 12:30 AM
  #87
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The Soviets probably didn't like his foot speed and, for the third time, there was that criticism about how long he liked to take to wind up a slapper.

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05-29-2010, 02:27 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Do you have any idea why Petrov is basically nonexistent in voting for Soviet player of the year, despite his gaudy stats? I assumed it was because he was a guy who basically dominated the offensive zone but let Kharlamov control the play up ice and Mikhailov do the dirty work. But you really are painting a different picture. (I have only watched a couple of games with the KPM line, many fewer than you).

I also thought the general consensus among Russian hockey fans was that Maltsev was a clear step up from Petrov. The "Soviet player of the year" voting would tend to agree (where Maltsev is barely behind Kharlamov and Mikhailov but well ahead of Petrov). And yet Petrov is probably better statistically, and you are saying that he was just as important to his line as Kharlamov and Mikhailov.
Not really. If I remember correctly, his results in voting get a little better later on (further proving that he was 'crap' in the late'60s/early '70s ), but are still quite modest compared to many of his peers. A lot of that can be contributed to his style of play; he just wasn't very exciting, explosive or pretty to look at. Then again, nearly the same thing could be said about Mikhailov, so I don't know.
I think we would need the opinion of a Russian 'old-timer' who saw them play in the Soviet league and internationally. I'm beginning to run out of expertise right here.

BTW, how did Igor Larionov do in the MVP voting compared to his linemates? Despite him being called 'the professor' and 'Russian Gretzky', he was always in the shadow of Makarov and Krutov, and he would consistently get beaten by them stats-wise as well. Petrov, on the other hand, was usually the leading scorer of the '70s top line.

There's no question that especially in Kharlamov's peak, he would often be the one who carried the puck to the offensive zone, as well as him being the one who created room for Mikhailov and Petrov by his 1-on-1 skills and speed. But I think it was often Petrov who got him the puck in the 1st place, with Mikhailov being mainly the one who finished the attack - usually scoring from the slot.

Well, Maltsev was much 'prettier' and more exciting player, i.e. more 'Soviet', if you will, I don't think there's any question about that. And like I said, when he occasionally centered the top line instead of Petrov, they were usually at least as effective, and in fact, it added some extra speed and electricity to the line; but maybe at the same time, it lost some physicality and defensive play.

BTW, in the 1971-72 season and in most games of the Summit series, Petrov and Mikhailov actually played with Yuri Blinov of all people. Blinov had his best season/year by far, but after Kharlamov started to play with M & P again, he disappeared very quickly. Was Blinov's success more of Petrov's or Mikhailov's doing? Judged by the 5 SS games they play together, I'd say Petrov.

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05-29-2010, 04:19 AM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jareklajkosz View Post
Let's find out:

1, 1, 2, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 8, 9, 9, 10, 12

Petrov goal scoring record.
So, no then?

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05-29-2010, 07:07 AM
  #90
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The Soviets seem to have valued international play much more than their own league play. Even exhibition games are probably regarded as important. Kharlamov does much better in National Team play in comparison to his line mates.

But style does seem to be a huge part of it as well. Petrov's 3 goals, 4 assists, 7 points, in the 72 Summit are a disappointment, while Kharlamov's 3-4-7 line is the stuff of legends.

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05-29-2010, 11:23 AM
  #91
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I finally dug up the old thread that Triffy had posted, and which has the top 5 players (for most years) of Soviet MVP voting 1968-1991:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triffy View Post
I gathered all this info from here, a site HFBoards user Sturminator directed me to when I asked where his info came from.

Soviet League MVP
Year 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th
1968 Anatoli Firsov (CSKA) 137 Vyacheslav Starshinov (Spartak) 84 Viktor Konovalenko (Torpedo Gorky) 49 Yevgeny Zimin (Spartak) 13 Aleksandr Ragulin (CSKA) 5
1969 Anatoli Firsov (CSKA) 68 Viktor Zinger (Spartak) 63 Vyacheslav Starshinov (Spartak) 56 Valeri Kharlamov (CSKA) 51 Boris Mikhailov (CSKA) 30
1970 Viktor Konovalenko (Gorky) 124 Aleksandr Maltsev (Dynamo) 104 Vyacheslav Starshinov (Spartak) 83 Vladimir Vikulov (CSKA) 48 Valeri Kharlamov (CSKA) 20
1971 Anatoli Firsov (CSKA) 134 Vladimir Vikulov (CSKA) 70 Aleksandr Maltsev (Dynamo) 70 Valeri Kharlamov (CSKA) 61 Vladislav Tretiak (CSKA) 12
1972 Aleksandr Maltsev (Dynamo) 130 Valeri Kharlamov (CSKA) 130 Vladimir Vikulov (CSKA) 35 Aleksandr Yakushev (Spartak) 4 Vladislav Tretiak (CSKA) 5
1973 Valeri Kharlamov (CSKA) 107 Vladimir Petrov (CSKA) 104 Vladislav Tretiak (CSKA) 40 Boris Mikhailov (CSKA) 34 Valeri Vasiliev (Dynamo) 10
1974 Vladislav Tretiak (CSKA) 113 Boris Mikhailov (CSKA) 67 Valeri Vasiliev (Dynamo) 39 Aleksandr Maltsev (Dynamo) 38 Valeri Kharlamov (CSKA) 26
1975 Vladislav Tretiak (CSKA) 107 Valeri Kharlamov (CSKA) 81 Aleksandr Yakushev (Spartak) 58 Vladimir Petrov (CSKA) 49 Boris Mikhailov (CSKA) 44
1976 Vladislav Tretiak (CSKA) 139 Valeri Kharlamov (CSKA) 107 Viktor Shalimov (Spartak) 38 Aleksandr Maltsev (Dynamo) 28 Aleksandr Yakushev (Spartak) 17
1977 Helmuts Balderis (Riga) 166 Vladimir Petrov (CSKA) 90 Boris Mikhailov (CSKA) and Vladislav Tretiak (CSKA) 73 Pervukhina Vassili (Dynamo) 14
1978 Boris Mikhailov (CSKA) 128 Vladislav Tretiak (CSKA) 110 Vyacheslav Fetisov (CSKA) 61 Aleksandr Maltsev (Dynamo) 33 Helmuts Balderis (CSKA) 29
1979 Boris Mikhailov (CSKA Moscow)
1980 Sergei Makarov (CSKA) 156 Vladimir Krutov (CSKA) 68 Boris Mikhailov (CSKA) 49 Aleksandr Maltsev (Dynamo) 38 Valeri Vasiliev (Dynamo) 27
1981 Vladislav Tretiak (CSKA) 158 Aleksandr Maltsev (Dynamo) 121 Sergei Kapustin (Spartak) 53 Sergey Makarov (CSKA) 35 Vladimir Petrov (CSKA) 28
1982 Vyacheslav Fetisov (CSKA) 116 Sergey Makarov (CSKA) 102 Vladislav Tretiak (CSKA) 63 Viktor Shalimov (Spartak) 49 Aleksandr Kozhevnikov (Spartak) 34
1983 Vladislav Tretiak (CSKA) 222 Vladimir Krutov (CSKA) 111 Sergei Makarov (CSKA) 50 Vyacheslav Fetisov (CSKA) 44 Aleksei Kasatonov (CSKA) 29
1984 Drozdetsky Nikolai (CSKA) 132 Vladislav Tretiak (CSKA) 114 Vyacheslav Fetisov (CSKA) 82 Sergey Makarov (CSKA) 78 Vladimir Kovin (Gorky) 34
1985 Sergei Makarov (CSKA) 230 Vyacheslav Fetisov (CSKA) 122 Yuri Leonov (Dynamo) 26 Vladimir Myshkin (Dynamo) 25 Pervukhina Vassili (Dynamo) 22
1986 Vyacheslav Fetisov (CSKA) 184 Sergey Makarov (CSKA) 169 Vladimir Krutov (CSKA) 126 Igor Larionov (CSKA) 35 Vyacheslav Bykov (CSKA) 14
1987 Vladimir Krutov (CSKA) 264 Evgueni Belosheďkin (CSKA) 80 Sergei Makarov (CSKA) 69 Igor Larionov (CSKA) 28 Vyacheslav Fetisov (CSKA) 27
1988 Igor Larionov (CSKA) 142 Vyacheslav Fetisov (CSKA) 129 Vladimir Krutov (CSKA) 94 Sergey Makarov (CSKA) 41 Arturs Irbe (Riga) 39
1989 Sergei Makarov (CSKA) 146 Vyacheslav Bykov (CSKA) 130 Vyacheslav Fetisov (CSKA) 110 Sergei Mylnikov (Chelyabinsk) 28 Vladimir Krutov (CSKA) 11
1990 Andrei Khomutov (CSKA) 155 Arturs Irbe (Riga) 140 Vyacheslav Bykov (CSKA) 78 Mikhail Tatarinov (Dynamo) 53 Valeri Kamensky (CSKA) 16
1991 Valeri Kamensky (CSKA) 166 Pavel Bure (CSKA) 53 Aleksandr Semak (Dynamo) 45 Andrei Trefilov (Dynamo) 40 Maryn Aleksei (Spartak) 26
Petrov indeed did not do very well compared to many others (2nd, 2nd, 4th, 5th). Then again, another non-typical Soviet forward like Yakushev didn't either. Although Big Yak may have been in a disadvantage for being a non-CSKA Moscow player, it didn't seem to hurt Maltsev that much.
Larionov in the 1980s did not do awfully well either (especially compared to Makarov and Fetisov).

Data from 1979 - outside the winner (Boris Mikhailov) - is missing. That was a big year for Petrov, as he won the scoring title in the Soviet league and 1979 WC, as well as being an all-star in both. Most certainly he would have been in the top 5 - maybe even 2nd; that hurts him a bit. Or was it that this year 'Leonid Brezhnev' selected the winner by himself

I understand that international play definitely effected the voting. It could explain somewhat why Petrov is nowhere to be seen in 1974, 1976 and 1978, for example, as he missed some key games in the world championships and once even the whole tournament (1976).


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05-29-2010, 11:28 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
I finally dug up the old thread that Triffy had posted, and which has the top 5 players (for most years) of Soviet MVP voting 1968-1991:



Petrov indeed did not do very well compared to many others. Then again, another non-typical Soviet forward like Yakushev didn't either. Although Big Yak may have been in a disadvantage for being a non-CSKA Moscow player, it didn't seem to hurt Maltsev that much.
Krutov and Larionov in the 1980s did not awfully well either (compared to Makarov and Fetisov).

Data from 1979 - outside the winner (Boris Mikhailov) - is missing. That was a big year for Petrov, as he won the scoring title in the Soviet league and 1979 WC, as well as being an all-star in both. Most certainly he was in the top 5 - maybe even 2nd; that hurts him a bit. Or was it that this year Leonid Brezhnev selected the winner by himself

I understand that international play definitely effected the voting. It could explain somewhat why Petrov is nowhere to be seen in 1974, 1976 and 1978, for example, as he missed some key games in the world championships and once even the whole tournament (1976).
International play definitely affected the Soviet Player of the Year voting, which is why I suspected that it affected Czech Player of the Year voting (but with no proof of the later).

Look at Drozdetsky. The year he won the award is the same year that he dominated the Olympics.

As for Yakushev, he isn't a factor because he wasn't a star player for most of his career, at least compared to some others. HE seems like a guy who peaked at the Summit Series.

Here's sturm's thread on some of the 70s-era Soviets:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=565254

There's also a discussion on the weird anti-correlation between Petrov's POTY voting and his scoring.

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05-29-2010, 11:59 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
International play definitely affected the Soviet Player of the Year voting, which is why I suspected that it affected Czech Player of the Year voting (but with no proof of the later).

Look at Drozdetsky. The year he won the award is the same year that he dominated the Olympics.

As for Yakushev, he isn't a factor because he wasn't a star player for most of his career, at least compared to some others. HE seems like a guy who peaked at the Summit Series.

Here's sturm's thread on some of the 70s-era Soviets:

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=565254

There's also a discussion on the weird anti-correlation between Petrov's POTY voting and his scoring.
Yes, and I'm one of Yakushev's biggest NON-supporters. It does annoy me when such "experts" on Soviet hockey like Bobby Clarke (who played, what, 10+ games against them?) keep on praising him, as if he was just about the greatest USSR player of all-time

HOWEVER, he was in the top 10 in scoring in quite a few World Championships (also best forward in 1975, all-star 1974, 75), at least, and the key player on the highest-scoring line in the Soviet league in 1973 & 1976.

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05-29-2010, 12:52 PM
  #94
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More about Petrov's skating... (flogging 'a dying horse' a bit )

I was trying to think of an NHL player that was comparable to him as a skater = Bobby Clarke, how about it?

Both were leaders, dirty (clear 'edge' to B though), very good stickhandlers and playmakers (edge to B in on-ice-vision definitely). But as skaters... both looked so, so, what is the opposite of effortless? And what's with the hands (swinging back and forth)?

In addition to Clarke, looking at Phil Esposito, Wayne Cashman, Brad Park, Rod Seiling, Bill White and so forth in '72, Petrov doesn't appear to be such an awful skater in comparison.


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06-01-2010, 03:06 AM
  #95
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Martinec

I was checking if there is any footage of Vladimir Martinec on the internet, and found this (his 60-year anniversary interview, I presume?):

http://www.ct24.cz/sport/76136-legen...e-v-70-letech/

It's all very little, unfortunately, and doesn't give much impression of him as a player. But there are still some footage of him playing:

At about 11:00; Martinec practising with/playing for Tesla Pardubice
At about 14:45; Martinec scoring some obvious key goals against USSR and Sweden (I think from the 1977 or/and 1976 World Championships)

Could shave that pimping moustache, but still looking pretty young for a 60-year old! I wish I understood Czech. He seems to talk about his linemate Bohuslav Stastny and about 1976 WC in Katowice and says something about the Russians and the Canadians too.

Sometime in the future, when I have the time, motivation and technical knowhow, I shall do some highlight clips of the European greats of the past (CSSR players, Mikhailov-Petrov-Kharlamov line) and put them on YouTube or something.


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06-06-2010, 03:08 PM
  #96
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Most overrated player taken

Jaromir Jagr and Mike Bossy, I would never waste a 1st round pick on either of these guys.
I don't see why either of these guys is a bad 1st round pick. I'd take either one over any forward drafted after the 1st round.

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