Damn dude, you just completely ignored my point AGAIN. Please, I beg you, this time, READ WHAT I AM SAYING....
Why aren't you understanding this? Your argument was about the difference between him on the wing and at center, but those two links aren't representative of those two separate things as he spent portions of times in each position each year.
As I already stated to mikedifr (which he agreed with me on), Giroux did not really play C last year. Powe centered that line much of the time when Briere was out and I'd say that even when Briere came back, Powe handled the center's responsibilities in the defensive zone, protecting the front of the net, etc.
This year, he played wing I'd say the first 25-30 games of the season (again, ballpark guess, but Stevens used that Gagne-Richie-Giroux line quite a bit) and while admittedly this is crude criteria, he was at +5 as of December 5th.
After December 5th, he was -14 the rest of the way. Again, to emphasize, that's a very crude way of measuring it, but it essentially jives with my observation that he's an excellent 2-way player on wing and not as good in the center.
Again, I think we can all agree that for at least the last 40 or so games, possibly the last 50, he was a center and for the first 2-3 months, he was a wing. In my opinion, his defensive performance slipped after he moved to C and certainly, a big fluctuation like that in +/- is at least interesting.
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Way to go, champ. Way tooo goooo. Way to come through with that useless garbage...even after I included the following tidbit, which I wouldn't even have bothered including(since it would've been implicit to most), but decided to include since I'm talking to you...
You said he's "less willing to give up on a play." Therefore, according to you, Gagne is more willing to give up on a play than Giroux.
As I already stated to mikedifr (which he agreed with me on), Giroux did not really play C last year.
No, actually, he did really play C last year. He spent most of his time there, and some time on the wing...just like this year. The attempt to use those links you presented to differentiate his defensive play at each position was a laugh.
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh
You said he's "less willing to give up on a play." Therefore, according to you, Gagne is more willing to give up on a play than Giroux.
I find that opinion to be ridiculous.
Yes, I did say that, and I suspect that any reasonable people who read it understood exactly what I was trying to say, especially in consideration of all the stuff I said before and after it. Only an extremely unreasonable person would spin it into some notion that I was trying to suggest Gagne is a quitter who gives up on a ton of plays.
Ask Alain Vigneault how well that worked out. Hawks got the matchups in Vancouver and San Jose as well.
Q is a fanatic; I've never seen a coach commit so hard to line matching.
Alan Vigneault does not equal Peter Laviolette. Or are you just another Hawk fan irrationally implying another huge advantage for Chicago in which the Flyers will only be able to attempt to climb as a squirrel on an oiled bird feeder?
Hey, here's an idea... since this argument clearly isn't going anywhere, why don't both of you shut up.
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Originally Posted by Aveng7x
Hey guys, Caps fan here.
Rooting for you to win it all, represent the east !
Gonna be tough, but Philly has been impressive this post season, your team is playing with TONS of heart.
Be loud and proud at your home games, your team has been great.
Thank god you beat the annoying crabs.
G'luck guys, Go get em!
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Originally Posted by FireHolmgrenDotCom
cant believe the infighting we still have on this board at this point of the season.
Why cant we just agree to disagree and move on.
No, actually, he did really play C last year. He spent most of his time there, and some time on the wing...just like this year. The attempt to use those links you presented to differentiate his defensive play at each position was a laugh.
Yes, I did say that, and I suspect that any reasonable people who read it understood exactly what I was trying to say, especially in consideration of all the stuff I said before and after it. Only an extremely unreasonable person would spin it into some notion that I was trying to suggest Gagne is a quitter who gives up on a ton of plays.
Was it you who posted that site with percentages? I think it was during the JVR talk someone posted it. It shows the percentages with each line combination. Its not to get into the debate, Im just curious.
I'm actually getting some (very slight) hope for this series.
I mean, the Hawks are great, but a couple things.
- Toews had 13 of his 26 points on the PP and Kane has 9 of his 20 on the PP. While I don't think our PK will repeat the MTL performance, if we can crimp the Hawks PP production (currently at 22.6), that could be a big factor.
- Niemi-Leighton could essentially be a wash and I think Leighton might still be our weakest link.
- The team that gave the Hawks by far the most trouble coincidentally had 2 No.1 studs that played huge minutes on their blue line.
- I don't think the Hawks have faced a forward corps like ours. Vancouver and SJ both have strong groups, but they don't have the speed that ours do. It was apparent by Game 2 of the SJ series that it was essentially going to be size versus speed and speed won the day. But our guys can keep up with them, I'd say we only have a couple below average skaters in our entire forward group.
- Like I said, I'm not 100% sold on that Hawks D. Maybe he will prove me wrong, but Keith's D peripherals as far as GAON and GAOFF are brutal, Campbell isn't a great defender, Hjalmarsson is practically a rookie, and Sopel is exploitable at ES (his main value is PK).
- Bottom line, I don't think the Hawks have a defender that's as good as Pronger OR Kimmo and considering the way Coburn has been coming on (not counting the 3rd last night), I'm not even positive Seabrook is that much better defensively than he is.
If Leighton can outplay Niemi (questionable, but not impossible) and our D can really outplay the Hawks D (fairly possible), I think we have a good shot.
Plus, I don't think the Pronger factor can really be overstated at this point.
I think you're wrong Keith is +21 in regular season, Seabrook +20, they are the best d-men pair in NHL right now. They skate fast, can handle the puck well, can hit, shoot hard. It's maybe their biggest power.
I think you're wrong Keith is +21 in regular season, Seabrook +20, they are the best d-men pair in NHL right now. They skate fast, can handle the puck well, can hit, shoot hard. It's maybe their biggest power.
A lot of Keith's positive +/- comes from the fact that he's an incredibly good offensive player.
I'm not saying he's necessarily a bad defensive player, I don't think he is, but at the same level defensively as Pronger or Kimmo. Of course, if he keeps having the huge offensive impact, that won't really matter as much, but if the Flyers can shut him down offensively, I think that would be pretty huge.
Ask Alain Vigneault how well that worked out. Hawks got the match-ups in Vancouver and San Jose as well.
Q is a fanatic; I've never seen a coach commit so hard to line matching.
That's nice. I don't give a damn. We're not the Hawks and we're not San Jose. He isn't the only coach who knows how to call for a line change, and in Philadelphia, Laviolette has last change. There comes a point at which bending over backwards to get the line that you want out becomes counter productive anyway.
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Originally Posted by massivegoonery
You don't get to pick the matchups, Q does.
Again, did I miss something? Is Joe Queneville allowed to just do whatever he wants, on account of his "fanaticism"? Seriously, what is he gonna do, stomp his feet and pout till the refs give him last change? If being applied to the whole series, your original post is categorically false, I don't even see what there is to argue.
I previously said that nothing scares me about this Hawks team, and that still holds true, but the one thing that scares me like nothing else, is Leighton's 5-hole.
Its not secret that the 5-hole has been his biggest disadvantage and when you are playing against guys like Kane, Toews, Byfuglien, Sharp, Versteeg, Keith, Seabrook, you really have to work hard on cutting that down.
as far as the lines go i would tend to agree that riding the hartnell-briere-leino combo to the bitter end could spell trouble.
here is what i would like to see line combo wise
Gagne-Richards-Briere as the first line, this buries Briere defensively with two solid two-way guys and gives some balance. All these guys can score but they don't all NEED the puck.
Hartnell-Carter-Giroux, Giroux is unselfish, Hartnell will mix it up down low and this is an improvement defensively over the current second line
JVR-Betts-Leino, hope Leino's sudden flare for hard work on offense rubs off on JVR, Betts can be a good possession guy even though he is still not real likely to show up on the scoresheet.
Carcillo-Powe-Laperriere, just beat the crap out of the opposition with this line, all muscle, no flash.
I wouldn't be afraid to move a hot Leino or JVR into Hartnell's spot and put him on the third line. If Briere prevents the puck from moving on that top line, move Giroux onto it. I know that pairs up Briere and Carter who both need the puck but I refuse to move Briere to center. Carter would be a great fit on the first line and should see *some* duty there, but his size and defense are too important to move to a wing IMO.
If Betts is inept, could move Leino up also and put Giroux as the third line center but I would like to see Claude get more ice time, not less in this series.
I previously said that nothing scares me about this Hawks team, and that still holds true, but the one thing that scares me like nothing else, is Leighton's 5-hole.
Its not secret that the 5-hole has been his biggest disadvantage and when you are playing against guys like Kane, Toews, Byfuglien, Sharp, Versteeg, Keith, Seabrook, you really have to work hard on cutting that down.
I think after the Chicago-Philly series, we could clearly say if Leighton could be your #1 next season or not. And i still do think if Leighton have some bad time against the Hawks, Carey Price is the best option for you guys. btw is Emery still under contract? Or is he free agent?
I think after the Chicago-Philly series, we could clearly say if Leighton could be your #1 next season or not. And i still do think if Leighton have some bad time against the Hawks, Carey Price is the best option for you guys. btw is Emery still under contract? Or is he free agent?
Emery is a free agent, and there is a lot of uncertainty whether the head of his femur will ever be strong enough for him to play in net professionally again.
I think after the Chicago-Philly series, we could clearly say if Leighton could be your #1 next season or not. And i still do think if Leighton have some bad time against the Hawks, Carey Price is the best option for you guys. btw is Emery still under contract? Or is he free agent?
Was it you who posted that site with percentages? I think it was during the JVR talk someone posted it. It shows the percentages with each line combination. Its not to get into the debate, Im just curious.
Yeah, but I'm pretty sure it just lists who was out on the ice in order of their numbers, or last names maybe. I don't think it specifies positions. Of course, in most cases you can figure that out for yourself, but not always. Anyway, here's that site...if you find that I'm incorrect at all about the position thing, let me know...
I think at this point, with all the guys listed, you know what you're going to get, so with that I fear the unknown:
Is Marian Hossa going to show up in the finals?
If he does, that will be three lines of scoring depth that can match ours, and we have to hope it doesn't wear down Pronger, Timonen, Carle, and Coburn.
The other is the absolutely underrated Niklas Hjalmarsson on their second pair. He is a big time shutdown defenseman but no one knows that because everyone pays attention to Chicago's big money players. Few teams have gotten more out of someone making just $600K
Seriously it would solve your goalie issue for the next decade.
