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Franchise goaltenders still in the playoffs...

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Old
05-25-2010, 07:13 AM
  #1
sickamore
 
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Franchise goaltenders still in the playoffs...

Let's see a list....... or realize it actually is a team game......

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05-25-2010, 07:17 AM
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FlyHigh
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Because 1 year absolutely identifies a complete trend...

I think you also have to consider that Leighton and Niemi are both playing at elite levels which means that to an extent, their teams are just really ****ing lucky.

I mean, Niemi had 40+ saves a couple times in the Sharks series including a ridiculous performance in Game 1 and what about Leighton putting up a .948.

That isn't about team play, it's about 2 goalies getting really, really hot at the right time.

Obviously I'm very excited to be here, but it doesn't validate the Flyers strategy of essentially ignoring the goalie system for the past 25 years.

We've seen performances like this a few times in the playoffs by normally fairly average goalies, kind of exciting that it's happening twice in one postseason.

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05-25-2010, 08:15 AM
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Michael Leighton

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05-25-2010, 08:22 AM
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DrHamburg
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yes this is a 1 year trend. The past 2 stanley cups had 2 elite goalies as well.

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05-25-2010, 08:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Because 1 year absolutely identifies a complete trend...
Fleury/Osgood
Fleury/Osgood
Emery/Giguere
Ward/Roloson

I mean ...

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05-25-2010, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrHamburg View Post
yes this is a 1 year trend. The past 2 stanley cups had 2 elite goalies as well.
Fleury put up a .921 in 08 and a .912 in 09, while not elite, that's definitely in the "very good" category which is where I generally think Fleury falls as a goaltender, he had a rough time this season, but I'm betting he'll bounce back, Pittsburgh was a pretty crappy defensive team this year.

I've given up trying to figure out Osgood who always seems to raise his game to high levels during the POs.

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05-25-2010, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevermore View Post
Fleury/Osgood
Fleury/Osgood
Emery/Giguere
Ward/Roloson

I mean ...
now we have

Leighton/Niemmi
Fleury/Osgood
Fleury/Osgood
Emery/Giguere
Ward/Roloson

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05-25-2010, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevermore View Post
Fleury/Osgood
Fleury/Osgood
Emery/Giguere
Ward/Roloson

I mean ...
Fleury - very good
Osgood - Postseason freak (.926 and .930 in the last 2)
Giguere - Elite from 01-02 to 07-08
Emery - meh
Ward - Clearly has an elite skill set.
Roloson - Above average

I mean, if extrapolate back to 2000 if you want.

Khabibulin - Elite
Kipper - Elite
Brodeur (3x) - Elite
Giguere - Elite
Hasek - Elite
Irbe - Average
Roy - Elite
Belfour - Elite/very good

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05-25-2010, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Fleury - very good
Osgood - Postseason freak (.926 and .930 in the last 2)
Giguere - Elite from 01-02 to 07-08
Emery - meh
Ward - Clearly has an elite skill set.
Roloson - Above average
Fleury - Biron had similiar stats in both years the Pens made the Finals (especially last year). Plus, Fleury actually seems to regress. 08-09 was worse than 07-08, last year was worse than 08-09. He stole the series against the Flyers, was downright awful against the Caps and average against the Wings.
Osgood - Hard to argue against his postseason stats. And he actually had a great 07-08 campaign. But last year he was absolutely horrible. Plus, having Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Lidstrom in front of him helps.
Giguere - Point.
Emery - Duh.
Ward - Horrible 05-06 regular season, horrible 06-07 regular season, below average 07-08 regular season. He got hot. Nothing more.
Roloson - Average. His post-lockout stats are very unimpressive.

The only two guys I would've felt really comfortable with are Giguere and 07-08 Osgood.


And pre-lockout doesn't count.

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05-25-2010, 09:57 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nevermore View Post
Fleury - Biron had similiar stats in both years the Pens made the Finals (especially last year). Plus, Fleury actually seems to regress. 08-09 was worse than 07-08, last year was worse than 08-09. He stole the series against the Flyers, was downright awful against the Caps and average against the Wings.
Osgood - Hard to argue against his postseason stats. And he actually had a great 07-08 campaign. But last year he was absolutely horrible. Plus, having Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Lidstrom in front of him helps.
Giguere - Point.
Emery - Duh.
Ward - Horrible 05-06 regular season, horrible 06-07 regular season, below average 07-08 regular season. He got hot. Nothing more.
Roloson - Average. His post-lockout stats are very unimpressive.

The only two guys I would've felt really comfortable with are Giguere and 07-08 Osgood.


And pre-lockout doesn't count.
Yeah, and Biron and was a well above-average goaltender the 2 years he was here. Plus, in the 4 Pitt wins against Detroit, Fleury was ridiculous.

Osgood, again, freakish postseason guy, virtually 1 of a kind.

Ward, the ability has always been there. Plus, they played bottom-10 offenses in MTL and NJD, then played Buffalo who was missing like 5 of their top-6 d-men, then a low seed in EDM, that was a very freaky year anyways.

Roloson I'd say is average to above average, EDM had the Pronger effect going for them plus, like I said, 05-06 was just a very weird season, highest scoring one since 95-96.

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05-25-2010, 10:08 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Yeah, and Biron and was a well above-average goaltender the 2 years he was here. Plus, in the 4 Pitt wins against Detroit, Fleury was ridiculous.

Osgood, again, freakish postseason guy, virtually 1 of a kind.

Ward, the ability has always been there. Plus, they played bottom-10 offenses in MTL and NJD, then played Buffalo who was missing like 5 of their top-6 d-men, then a low seed in EDM, that was a very freaky year anyways.

Roloson I'd say is average to above average, EDM had the Pronger effect going for them plus, like I said, 05-06 was just a very weird season, highest scoring one since 95-96.
So, you're saying matchups are important in the playoffs? Interesting theory.

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05-25-2010, 10:11 AM
  #12
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Flyhigh, you're going overboard and looking foolish in the process. You're acting like goaltending statistics exist in a vacuum and as a separate result from the way the team plays. I've been doing some defending of Leighton recently, specifically because I thought he was very good in Game 2 against the Habs, but people were acting like it was just another game where the D made it very easy for him. That said, most of these games have been very easy for him, and lauding his .948 and going on about how he's been "really, really hot" while not mentioning how much the team has had to do with it....well, it's silly.

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05-25-2010, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
So, you're saying matchups are important in the playoffs? Interesting theory.
I know it's kind of out there, but I like to think outside the box.

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05-25-2010, 10:19 AM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
Flyhigh, you're going overboard and looking foolish in the process. You're acting like goaltending statistics exist in a vacuum and as a separate result from the way the team plays. I've been doing some defending of Leighton recently, specifically because I thought he was very good in Game 2 against the Habs, but people were acting like it was just another game where the D made it very easy for him. That said, most of these games have been very easy for him, and lauding his .948 and going on about how he's been "really, really hot" while not mentioning how much the team has had to do with it....well, it's silly.
I have to disagree with you here.

I mean, sure we've played excellent team defense, but Leighton has made several huge saves including 2 point blank ones on Gomez and Pyatt in the 3rd period of Game 5.

Also have to remember the SHG breakaway he stopped in Game 2 that would have tied the game (and we played poorly for a lot of that one).

I mean, sure it hasn't been a Conn Smythe performance, but at the same time, he's made some really, really timely saves. Hell, go back to that one on Savard in Game 7 when it was 4-3 us. If the Bruins tie that one up, who knows what happens?

What about the one on Kostitsyn in Game 4 when it was still 0-0? Point being, maybe .948 is a bit high for the way he's played, but at the same time, he's bailed us out when we've needed it.

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05-25-2010, 10:20 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
Flyhigh, you're going overboard and looking foolish in the process. You're acting like goaltending statistics exist in a vacuum and as a separate result from the way the team plays. I've been doing some defending of Leighton recently, specifically because I thought he was very good in Game 2 against the Habs, but people were acting like it was just another game where the D made it very easy for him. That said, most of these games have been very easy for him, and lauding his .948 and going on about how he's been "really, really hot" while not mentioning how much the team has had to do with it....well, it's silly.
Frankly, I don't think it's the team so much as it was the Habs. They were not well set up to take advantage of Leighton's weaknesses in rebound control. Some of that is certainly the D, but go watch some of those games again... the Habs made a concerted effort to jam the net only in Game 3 and portions of Game 5. Now, against a goalie who is smaller and doesn't fill the net as much as Leighton, their style would be somewhat OK...but with Leighton you need to go to the net (hello Big Buff!) and take advantage of those loose pucks.

Leighton is going to get challenged on that front against Chicago. They have a ton of skill, but they also go for the ugly goals down low.

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05-25-2010, 10:44 AM
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I have to disagree with you here.

I mean, sure we've played excellent team defense, but Leighton has made several huge saves including 2 point blank ones on Gomez and Pyatt in the 3rd period of Game 5.

Also have to remember the SHG breakaway he stopped in Game 2 that would have tied the game (and we played poorly for a lot of that one).

I mean, sure it hasn't been a Conn Smythe performance, but at the same time, he's made some really, really timely saves. Hell, go back to that one on Savard in Game 7 when it was 4-3 us. If the Bruins tie that one up, who knows what happens?

What about the one on Kostitsyn in Game 4 when it was still 0-0? Point being, maybe .948 is a bit high for the way he's played, but at the same time, he's bailed us out when we've needed it.
Look, I've defended and praised Leighton more than most...I think he was huge in the Boston series, specifically Game 6( we probably don't win with Boosh in net that night). As far as the Habs series, I think he had a very easy time in Games 1, 3, and 5. Last night, he did make a couple huge saves, I agree. And actually, since I don't want to generalize certain games as easy and others as hard, I'll rank the difficulty of his games from easiest to toughest...

Game 4
Game 1
Game 5
Game 2
Game 3

To try and summarize here, on the whole, Leighton has been damn good...but has also received an incredible amount of help from his team.

Regardless of all that though, it never really makes sense to rest your argument on goaltending statistics the way you were without context for each one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Frankly, I don't think it's the team so much as it was the Habs. They were not well set up to take advantage of Leighton's weaknesses in rebound control. Some of that is certainly the D, but go watch some of those games again... the Habs made a concerted effort to jam the net only in Game 3 and portions of Game 5. Now, against a goalie who is smaller and doesn't fill the net as much as Leighton, their style would be somewhat OK...but with Leighton you need to go to the net (hello Big Buff!) and take advantage of those loose pucks.

Leighton is going to get challenged on that front against Chicago. They have a ton of skill, but they also go for the ugly goals down low.
Well, I agree that in a sense the Habs, on their own, didn't do a good job testing Leighton. But along with that has to come great acknowledgement of the way the Flyers played them. The Habs weren't able to attack the net as much as they should have for a combination of reasons. Sure, they may not have tried it enough, but even looking at it from the angle of when they could have wanted to...they didn't possess the puck often enough, didn't spend enough time in the offensive zone, and the Flyers D did a nice job taking care of players around the net when they had to.

Montreal scored I believe 20 goals against Washington and 19 against Pittsburgh. Neither are defensive juggernauts, but make no mistake that the way Montreal's offense was stifled in this series is a huge credit to the Flyers defense corps and overall team D and gameplan. It's a credit to Leighton as well.

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Old
05-25-2010, 10:52 AM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
Look, I've defended and praised Leighton more than most...I think he was huge in the Boston series, specifically Game 6( we probably don't win with Boosh in net that night). As far as the Habs series, I think he had a very easy time in Games 1, 3, and 5. Last night, he did make a couple huge saves, I agree. And actually, since I don't want to generalize certain games as easy and others as hard, I'll rank the difficulty of his games from easiest to toughest...

Game 4
Game 1
Game 5
Game 2
Game 3

To try and summarize here, on the whole, Leighton has been damn good...but has also received an incredible amount of help from his team.

Regardless of all that though, it never really makes sense to rest your argument on goaltending statistics the way you were without context for each one.
Even with team help, a .948 is still really strong and speaks to above-average play.

I do think Jester is correct though that we haven't played a team that's going to take advantage of his weaknesses, but he's played strong so far.

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05-25-2010, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claude boivin lives View Post
Well, I agree that in a sense the Habs, on their own, didn't do a good job testing Leighton. But along with that has to come great acknowledgement of the way the Flyers played them. The Habs weren't able to attack the net as much as they should have for a combination of reasons. Sure, they may not have tried it enough, but even looking at it from the angle of when they could have wanted to...they didn't possess the puck often enough, didn't spend enough time in the offensive zone, and the Flyers D did a nice job taking care of players around the net when they had to.

Montreal scored I believe 20 goals against Washington and 19 against Pittsburgh. Neither are defensive juggernauts, but make no mistake that the way Montreal's offense was stifled in this series is a huge credit to the Flyers defense corps and overall team D and gameplan. It's a credit to Leighton as well.
Flyers are playing very well... but with the new rules, if you want to be there, you can go to the front of the net. It isn't like pre-lockout where the defense just hatcheted anyone that was in the low slot. The Habs lack of net presence in this series was ridiculous... at some point your coaching staff needs to make it clear that the series is being lost in the 15 ft radius around the net and you need to cut it out with all the pass-and-shoot plays. Leighton is and has been very good on first shot, but you can get him on the second chances if you have the bodies there.

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05-25-2010, 11:09 AM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Flyers are playing very well... but with the new rules, if you want to be there, you can go to the front of the net. It isn't like pre-lockout where the defense just hatcheted anyone that was in the low slot. The Habs lack of net presence in this series was ridiculous... at some point your coaching staff needs to make it clear that the series is being lost in the 15 ft radius around the net and you need to cut it out with all the pass-and-shoot plays. Leighton is and has been very good on first shot, but you can get him on the second chances if you have the bodies there.
Yeah, I hear what you're saying and tend to agree...but do think you're overdoing it a bit. I recall many times that there were Habs in front of our net, and many times that the D eliminated them well, or a Flyer swatted the puck out(countless times), or the rebounds just didn't bounce right to a Hab, or the shot was never able to get through in the first place, or Leighton was able to actually hold onto the puck or direct it to the corner.

Again, I agree the Habs didn't focus on that enough, but they definitely did have their efforts.

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05-25-2010, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Osgood - Postseason freak (.926 and .930 in the last 2)

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05-25-2010, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by sickamore View Post
Let's see a list....... or realize it actually is a team game......
Great point.

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05-25-2010, 12:11 PM
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He had that guy during the regular season too.

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05-25-2010, 12:52 PM
  #23
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He had that guy during the regular season too.
I'm aware, I still think the Red Wings playoff success was defense, and not goal tending.

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05-25-2010, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UseYourAllusion View Post
I'm aware, I still think the Red Wings playoff success was defense, and not goal tending.
Well I agree with that, but my overall point is that you can't win the Cup without good goaltending and you generally have better odds of getting good goaltending from an elite guy.

It's kind of a catch-22 because to try to assure that good goaltending, you may need to shell out quite a bit of money, but a bigger cap hit on a goalie makes it that much harder to assemble a great defense around him.

That's why Osgood was so valuable because for whatever reason, he could always turn it up in the postseason, but his cap wasn't that bad.

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05-25-2010, 01:16 PM
  #25
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The next 10 years or so will lend a lot more weight to this, but I think it is becoming clear that the parity in the post-lockout NHL has lead to every team having holes and it being detrimental to spend over a certain amount on a goalie... even an elite one. In the same way, I think it has become clear that, without a salary cap, the top end teams tended to differ only in the quality of the goalie. The best teams with the deepest pockets almost always had quality scoring depth or teams constructed piece by piece to play the trap. The difference was that there are only a few truly elite goalies to go around.

Now, however, you want the goalie who will put up a .915 consistently but it's financially risky to spend the money on the guy that will put up the huge numbers.

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